What is that one serve that you HATE

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

Yep. The actual phrase used is: "cannot be hidden from the receiver."

2.6.4: From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

So, if you can see part of the ball, I don't believe it would actually be considered hidden from the receiver.

But, if at any point from when the palm of the hand is motionless with the ball presented in the palm, till when the ball is struck as it is falling during the toss, the ball is out of the sight of the receiver--completely hidden from view so that no part of the ball is visible--that would be against the rules.

And this rule:

2.6.1: Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.

States that the ball resting in the open palm of a stationary hand is the start of the serve. So, before you are complaining about someone else's serves, make sure the ball is touching your palm and not your fingers when you are about to toss. And make sure you start with your hand motionless (stationary), before you toss.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

Music&Ping, your post explaining this was good. You should put it back up. It says a lot of what my post says, but you say it differently. That is worth having with this. Especially since a lot of people who complain about illegal serves don't understand what would and would not be against the rules. And often, their serves are also against the rules.

Music&Ping · Jan 9, 2021

Hi Carl, I just saw your post after mine was launched and I thought it was a bit ... redundant, therefore useless.

Anyways
What the rule says page 36 ITTF Handbook 2020

2.6 THE SERVICE

2.6.1 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.

2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

2.6.3 As the ball is falling the server shall strike it so that it touches first his or her court and then touches directly the receiver's court; in doubles, the ball shall touch successively the right half court of server and receiver.

2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

So yeah it's pretty clear: from start --> ball in open hand, to end --> contact with bat, ball must not be hidden from the receiver at any time. I didn't agree with IB66 then, cos' what I've understood from his post is that the ball shall not be hidden at the contact with the bat's moment only.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

Music&Ping said:
Hi Carl, I just saw your post after mine was launched and I thought it was a bit ... redundant, therefore useless.

Anyways
What the rule says page 36 ITTF Handbook 2020

2.6 THE SERVICE

2.6.1 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.

2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

2.6.3 As the ball is falling the server shall strike it so that it touches first his or her court and then touches directly the receiver's court; in doubles, the ball shall touch successively the right half court of server and receiver.

2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

So yeah it's pretty clear: from start --> ball in open hand, to end --> contact with bat, ball must not be hidden from the receiver at any time. I didn't agree with IB66 then, cos' what I've understood from his post is that the ball shall not be hidden at the contact with the bat's moment only.

The nice thing is, this is the rules. Straight up.

I give commentary and explanation. Sometimes just having it straight from the horse's mouth is good.

And yes, it is that there is no point where the ball can be hidden. Not just at contact. And a player whose back swing causes the bat to go behind his back, that is fine. If the bat only comes out right before the contact, that might mean the person actually has a pretty good serve.

IB66 · Jan 9, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
Yep. The actual phrase used is: "cannot be hidden from the receiver."

2.6.4: From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.

So, if you can see part of the ball, I don't believe it would actually be considered hidden from the receiver.

But, if at any point from when the palm of the hand is motionless with the ball presented in the palm, till when the ball is struck as it is falling during the toss, the ball is out of the sight of the receiver--completely hidden from view so that no part of the ball is visible--that would be against the rules.

And this rule:

2.6.1: Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.

States that the ball resting in the open palm of a stationary hand is the start of the serve. So, before you are complaining about someone else's serves, make sure the ball is touching your palm and not your fingers when you are about to toss. And make sure you start with your hand motionless (stationary), before you toss.

Yeah, ‘hidden’ does imply that if even the smallest part of the ball can be seen, then the serve is good!!
So if you’re going to call a serve for it being hidden, then you must be 100% certain that ALL of the ball cannot be seen at some point during the service.

This is where it can get tricky!! And where a cunning player can make use of the rules!! Borderline !!

out of interest, are their more than the 2 officials involved at the top level tournaments during a match?

When watching, you are aware of the umpire and I think it’s a service judge? Not sure of actual title, positioned either side of the table. These officials have a totally different view from the receiver!!
Are there additional officials that can be requested by a player? That can locate themselves in a better position to try and see if the servers action hides the ball when viewed from the receivers point of view?

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

IB66, in truth, the way the rules are written, the only vantage point from which one could see if the ball was truly hidden is the vantage point of the receiver.

Were there two umpires, from where they sit, for the one facing the server, the ball is always visible; for the umpire who has a view of the server's back, most of the time the view of the ball is blocked by the body of the server.

So, there is a limitation in their ability to call this accurately. But I don't really see pros care about or complain about this issue. They read the serves. I don't think it is actually an issue.

Often when mid-level club players are complaining about this, it is more that they are not watching the serve closely enough rather than the view of the ball actually being obstructed.

IB66 · Jan 9, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
IB66, in truth, the way the rules are written, the only vantage point from which one could see if the ball was truly hidden is the vantage point of the receiver.

Were there two umpires, from where they sit, for the one facing the server, the ball is always visible; for the umpire who has a view of the server's back, most of the time the view of the ball is blocked by the body of the server.

So, there is a limitation in their ability to call this accurately. But I don't really see pros care about or complain about this issue. They read the serves. I don't think it is actually an issue.

Often when mid-level club players are complaining about this, it is more that they are not watching the serve closely enough rather than the serve truly being against the rules.

Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at!! Maybe players should have a GOPRO strapped to their foreheads!!! Relaying footage to a service judge!!!

Music&Ping · Jan 9, 2021

Yes it's the rule's "blind spot": as a judge are you gonna stand behind or near the receiver to see what he sees ? of course not, are we gonna see judges all over the TT court like in tennis in a future ? with special lenses on their eyes to analyze what the receiver can actually see ?

There are some technical innovations though, like in football: multiple cameras angles. Still, in that video the receiver didn't notice any fault to him, it's the Umpire indeed
https://www.facebook.com/ITTFWorld/videos/464606430913377/

This question is tricky and really interesting to me: I've applicated to french federation referee courses and examinations, the JA1 (Juge Arbitre 1er niveau --> Umpire, 1st level) to JAN (Juge Arbitre National, National Umpire, 3rd level) it's really exciting cos' as my club is located near big Pro A teams (Angers and La Romagne), it's an apportunity to act in high level leagues

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

I actually remember this handicap tournament. The finals ended up being a pretty high level player and a guy my level. The guy who was high level had to give 8 points as the handicap. The guy who was my level kept complaining that the serves were illegal.

I watched from right behind him. There was never a point where the ball was obstructed. But because this guy was high level, where he was contacting the ball was right by his right hip and you could not see his racket till right before he contacted the ball because, part of his body motion included a turn that brought the racket around from behind his back.

So, right before contact the motion of his arm and body caused the racket to appear from behind him and make contact. But there was never a point where the ball was obstructed. Totally legal. But you have to really be much better at watching to see what you are looking for when someone can serve like that.

And this is also why higher level players also watch the bounce, curve and arc of the ball for reading serves. If the arc is rounder, you are dealing with topspin. If the arc is flatter you are dealing with backspin. The arc of topspin, dead and backspin are distinct. You just need to know how to watch for it. Curving to the left or right is easier to see. If the ball kicks heavy to the left or right, that is more like corkscrew spin which is different than a sidespin that curves in the air.

Someone who knows how to read these things will not complain about hidden serves when the ball is not REALLY hidden.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

I think the rules of the table tennis gods need to be studied:

Baal said:
This is the definitive compilation of the Rules for Table Tennis as delivered by the Table Tennis Gods, not the mere ITTF. See the rest of the thread for further commentary.

.....

6. Harden the f^#k up. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

.....

16. You are required to serve legally which is sometimes whatever an umpire decides is legal (which in turn may require invocation of Rule 6).

17 However you may not post threads on TT forums complaining about opponents who serve illegally.

.....

IB66 · Jan 9, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
I actually remember this handicap tournament. The finals ended up being a pretty high level player and a guy my level. The guy who was high level had to give 8 points as the handicap. The guy who was my level kept complaining that the serves were illegal.

I watched from right behind him. There was never a point where the ball was obstructed. But because this guy was high level, where he was contacting the ball was right by his right hip and you could not see his racket till right before he contacted the ball because, part of his body motion included a turn that brought the racket around from behind his back.

So, right before contact the motion of his arm and body caused the racket to appear from behind him and make contact. But there was never a point where the ball was obstructed. Totally legal. But you have to really be much better at watching to see what you are looking for when someone can serve like that.

And this is also why higher level players also watch the bounce, curve and arc of the ball for reading serves. If the arc is rounder, you are dealing with topspin. If the arc is flatter you are dealing with backspin. The arc of topspin, dead and backspin are distinct. You just need to know how to watch for it. Curving to the left or right is easier to see. If the ball kicks heavy to the left or right, that is more like corkscrew spin which is different than a sidespin that curves in the air.

Someone who knows how to read these things will not complain about hidden serves when the ball is not REALLY hidden.

I think this was something that discussed with Dan when he was receiving Timo Bolls serves, Timo said that generally the top players read the serve pretty well and that the mistakes they make are more often when they try to play tight to the net, deep to the back of the table and so on.
Of course there are some really tricky servers who can achieve more misreads than others!!

Many players hide the FH service rubber for as long as possible, even from their starting position, like Ma Long’s and many others starting position, and as you described the rubber is only revealed at contact!!

As little information is given to the receiver as possible!!

lodro · Jan 9, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
I think the rules of the table tennis gods need to be studied:

It is getting very technical here

As a mediocre intermediate player i am never concerned about what the Pros or A-grade players use as their "Trick-serves" .
My pet-hate is more serves that involve dropping the ball right out of the fingers onto the fast moving blade with all possible variations and of course done over the table itself

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

Old school fingertip serves. Hahahaha.

Music&Ping · Jan 9, 2021

I've been practicing serves for hours, literaly, since I came back in TT: that old free arm camouflage habit à la Waldner ! literaly hours to get that free arm turning out of the table...

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 9, 2021

Music&Ping said:
I've been practicing serves for hours, literaly, since I came back in TT: that old free arm camouflage habit à la Waldner ! literaly hours to get that free arm turning out of the table...

Yeah. Leaving the arm there and serving under it actually really adds to the motion of the serve. It is much harder to serve without that.

IB66 said:
Many players hide the FH service rubber for as long as possible, even from their starting position, like Ma Long’s and many others starting position, and as you described the rubber is only revealed at contact!!
As little information is given to the receiver as possible!!

I honestly think this is just biomechanics. If you don't turn your body you are serving without the help of the power from your body. If your body does turn, on the backswing, it brings your racket back behind you. As you turn forward your racket comes to the side of you.

It is almost like saying that when a player takes a FH backswing and the racket goes behind them, they are hiding their racket. Really, it is just the backswing.

But for the motion of the serve, where you will get most power from the stroke mechanics is if the contact is right by the side of your right hip which is the hip that is away from the table.

A lot of lower level players serve in front of their belly. There is so much less leverage there.

lodro · Jan 9, 2021

A lot of lower level players serve in front of their belly. There is so much less leverage there.

...............but then again, I have often been told there is muuuuuuch too much leverage on my belly

Music&Ping · Jan 10, 2021

lodro said:
there is muuuuuuch too much beverage on my livy

Correction

amekun · Jan 10, 2021

hidden serves hehehehe :'(

What is that one serve that you HATE

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