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  1. bzing is offline
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    #1

    I prefer to watch ML & FZD for the 1000th time than any other TT players

    The sheer strength and raw energy put into every ball and where you can almost feel the rubber impacting the ball, it's a pure power coming from these tacky hard rubbers that imo is a lot more interesting than to watch players using springy rubbers which makes the game feel superficial and insipid imo.

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    #2
    “Slugger fest”
    Im actually quite opposite, I really miss the 38mm ball.
    The funny part is that they changed to make the game slower, but by taking away the spin only speed left. So now everybody goes for more speed and the game is much faster...

    cheers
    L-zr

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    #3
    Agree with above. Chinese play a bit like mass produced robots.

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    #4
    There's a pure velocity in those shots, this is what so many people completely don't realize and hence why so many of the players in european leagues, even many of the top players often never quite grasp the amount of velocity that's going into the ball when it comes to FZD & ML.

    Oh I see your equipment there - Yasaka Rakza 7 SOFT

    That explains everything..
    Last edited by bzing; 01-10-2021 at 01:19 PM.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    There's a pure velocity in those shots, this is what so many people completely don't realize and hence why so many of the players in european leagues, even many of the top players often never quite grasp the amount of velocity that's going into the ball when it comes to FZD & ML.

    Oh I see your equipment there - Yasaka Rakza 7 SOFT

    That explains everything..
    But you do grasp it?

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  6. zyu81 is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    There's a pure velocity in those shots, this is what so many people completely don't realize and hence why so many of the players in european leagues, even many of the top players often never quite grasp the amount of velocity that's going into the ball when it comes to FZD & ML.

    Oh I see your equipment there - Yasaka Rakza 7 SOFT

    That explains everything..
    Great to know! Be sure to inform Timo, Dima and all of them that the reason they haven't been able to beat the Chinese consistently is that the didn't realize how fast the ball is.

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  7. latej is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    There's a pure velocity in those shots, this is what so many people completely don't realize and hence why so many of the players in european leagues, even many of the top players often never quite grasp the amount of velocity that's going into the ball when it comes to FZD & ML.
    I really like to watch them too. Actually more than europeans/americans.

    With velocity of the ball - I'm not so sure. I think the ball is not flying faster than what profis playing in Germany and elsewhere produce.

  8. bzing is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    Agree with above. Chinese play a bit like mass produced robots.
    The way ML & FZD hit the ball is actually the most natural way for a human body to be fully utilized.

    It's true that their whole training system where they often train them from such a young age where they're barely even able to hold a spoon and they hand them a racket to train is a bit treating people to behave like robots. In fact pretty much every aspect of life seems to be the case over there where people are being treated like units to just compete against each other which is very dehumanizing and "robotic" in a way.

    But speaking purely in terms of the technique in the literal sense. If you were to start from the scratch, from the very beginning and start learning how to play ping pong (where they use the hard bats only), I guarantee you that adopting either FZD & ML technique would make you a whole lot better player playing the hard bat ping pong than Timo Bolls technique were it pretty much only works with springy rubbers.

    And this brings an important point that ML & FZD technique is actually geared more towards less technology in general. If they were to play ping pong with hard bats, their technique would benefit them a whole lot better than say Timo Boll's technique.

    And their technique is actually the most natural to the human body anatomy in terms of properly using the muscles and the limbs in accordance to hitting the ball efficiently.

    So in conclusion, the way they train may be robotic but their technique actually is a result of utilizing all of the body parts in the most natural way possible, just look at the video with FZD & ML and all the shots are being hit as if almost they are not hitting the ball with the racket but with their body itself.

    Whereas Timo Boll's technique almost seems like it heavily relies on the technology of the rubber and spending years of developing their TT skills based on that technology. Doesn't mean you can't be a good player using this strategy, but it's ACTUALLY not a natural way for a human body to hit the ball.
    Last edited by bzing; 01-11-2021 at 03:13 AM.

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    #9
    I do enjoy watching them two play. However, after a certain amount of times,when the predictability factor comes in, the games kinda lose their fun as each player can already tell where the point is going.
    To me,the best rivalries are the ones that don't happen too often or never happen. It's like a movie with an open ending.It leaves us the ability to discuss and have fun arguing over it.

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  10. latej is offline
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    #10
    You raise good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    The way ML & FZD hit the ball is actually the most natural way for a human body to be fully utilized.

    It's true that their whole training system where they often train them from such a young age where they're barely even able to hold a spoon and they hand them a racket to train is a bit treating people to behave like robots. In fact pretty much every aspect of life seems to be the case over there where people are being treated like units to just compete against each other which is very dehumanizing and "robotic" in a way.
    The "I'll optimize the h... out of you" trend continues everywhere. Sometimes its results are good, sometimes less.

    There are more pressing concerns than that small children train "like robots", all belonging to the same category. I prefer to either speak fully about those, or not at all. Which means in TT forum the later one. But that is just my view...

    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    But speaking purely in terms of the technique in the literal sense. If you were to start from the scratch, from the very beginning and start learning how to play ping pong (where they use the hard bats only), I guarantee you that adopting either FZD & ML technique would make you a whole lot better player playing the hard bat ping pong than Timo Bolls technique were it pretty much only works with springy rubbers.

    And this brings an important point that ML & FZD technique is actually geared more towards less technology in general. If they were to play ping pong with hard bats, their technique would benefit them a whole lot better than say Timo Boll's technique.
    I'd leave the technology out of it in a sense, that if that technology would produce better results for Chinese players, they would be the first to adopt it. It would be an optimization, I doesn't matter what kind of optimization, anything counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    And their technique is actually the most natural to the human body anatomy in terms of properly using the muscles and the limbs in accordance to hitting the ball efficiently.

    So in conclusion, the way they train may be robotic but their technique actually is a result of utilizing all of the body parts in the most natural way possible, just look at the video with FZD & ML and all the shots are being hit as if almost they are not hitting the ball with the racket but with their body itself.
    The points about body, anatomy, hit efficiency, energy transfer - I like that a lot. Imho, TT is still behind tennis in this, but it is a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    Whereas Timo Boll's technique almost seems like it heavily relies on the technology of the rubber and spending years of developing their TT skills based on that technology. Doesn't mean you can't be a good player using this strategy, but it's ACTUALLY not a natural way for a human body to hit the ball.
    I think Timo Boll has very good energy transfer to the ball, look how his breast-plate is stretched when he hits FH topspin fully. It means the hips and upper-body are already there (rotated) and the hand follows... In my eyes he does that better than FZD... (His bent hand is another point, I'm not comparing those.)

  11. davizoosk is offline
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    #11
    so, BTW, i prefer watch Xu Xin vs Ma Long and Ma Lin vs Wang Hao 1000 times to watch the European Leagues (i watch only the TTBL). I feel the Penhold game is more fun and more interest to watch. (I think is because i'm penholder lol). Brazil National Championships have some good games, i love watch too.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by davizoosk
    so, BTW, i prefer watch Xu Xin vs Ma Long and Ma Lin vs Wang Hao 1000 times to watch the European Leagues (i watch only the TTBL). I feel the Penhold game is more fun and more interest to watch. (I think is because i'm penholder lol). Brazil National Championships have some good games, i love watch too.
    Me fala que jogo brasileiro e interessante cara

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    #13
    What are the differences in the chinese technique and the european, based on the equipment (hard tacky rubbers and springy softer rubbers)?

  14. latej is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    What are the differences in the chinese technique and the european, based on the equipment (hard tacky rubbers and springy softer rubbers)?
    I'd recommend the TTNuri youtube channel, in particular the "Skill" playlist... It is better than some simplified answer. Some links:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqFpwd599eo (at 13:42 is ML & TB, you can see the diffs)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS-uwOXXZOc (ML & TB techniques, 3:29 for max body utilization)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHWHOuXF1hY (ZJK BH pure beauty)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJVJynxWhQs

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    Last edited by latej; 01-11-2021 at 08:15 PM.

  15. Lula is offline
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    #15
    Do not think they play much more powerful than the Europeans but the Chinese footwork is much much better than the Europeans. That is the most impressive thing about the Chinese. They move very well and stand correct so can play a better shot where as we Europeans many times do not stand correct and can not play as good shot.

    Also proably find it more impressive how europeans can sometimes match the chinese since the chinese proably have much better preconditions to become good.

    I know that Jorgen Persson say that playing against Fan Zhendong and Ma Long is basically the same. I do feel like Ma Long is changing his game a bit from just playing powerful forehand to much more variation probably due to his age? I find this more enjoyable.

    Still feel like that there were more variation and finesse with the smaller balls than now. Much more like tennis and women tabletennis now with pang pang but maybe a benefit from that is that it require players to be more fit which can help tabletennis to get an image of being a physical and demanding sport?

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  16. yogi_bear is offline
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    #16
    I prefer ML vs ZJK, Wang Liqin vs anyone and Waldner vs anyone.

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  17. bzing is offline
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    #17
    The BH swipes, chop blocks, side-spin blocks, BH flicks, FH scoopes (aka Xu Xin and recently Gauzy), are shots to name just a few that had never been even known back in the era before Ma Long. And Ma long uses BH chop blocks at least once or twice practically in every match now which was never the case before and still even players like Timo Boll never even got the hang of it (never seen him do it).

    So players like Ma Long in fact have a lot more variations in their game than players like Timo Boll if you watch their game closely.

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    #18
    I really wonder if it was because the ball was smaller that there was more "finesse" or maybe because the sport at the time hadn't been optimized yet and therefore you'd see more different kind of styles. Perhaps a combination of both.

    If people were less aware of what optimal technique was then they might learn other skills instead. More variations of what they'd do with the hand rather than the body. Those who excelled at those skills would be seen to have more "finesse" as they're finer movements, like more with just the hand than using the whole body to hit the ball hard which is what we see more of today. Especially the backhand has evolved, was it with the backhand there was more finesse back in the day?

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  19. yoass is offline
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    #19
    I definitely recall fh- and bh flicks, swoops, corkscrew chops and loops, and chopblocks in the 38mm area. Both Waldner and Persson had all that their arsenal.

    It was less used, though. Lower percentage stuff, I guess.

    But that doesn’t hold for the dead drop dropshot, usually executed with a sideswipe/chop. I’m not seeing those anymore, with multiple bounces. Or rarely a bounce at all.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    I really wonder if it was because the ball was smaller that there was more "finesse" or maybe because the sport at the time hadn't been optimized yet and therefore you'd see more different kind of styles. Perhaps a combination of both.

    If people were less aware of what optimal technique was then they might learn other skills instead. More variations of what they'd do with the hand rather than the body. Those who excelled at those skills would be seen to have more "finesse" as they're finer movements, like more with just the hand than using the whole body to hit the ball hard which is what we see more of today. Especially the backhand has evolved, was it with the backhand there was more finesse back in the day?
    That's plain physics, a smaller ball can rotate more laps on a given surface. A smaller ball has less air resistance.

    The finesse You are talking about I believe were mostly due to the spin factor (Almost no defensive players today).

    With the spin factor gone You need to focus on other things like speed for instance. This is what happened and today the game is on an average faster with with less spin. But this doesn't necessarily mean less finesse. But its harder to see due to the high speed.

    Cheers
    L-zr

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