I prefer to watch ML & FZD for the 1000th time than any other TT players

I think Kong linghui and Waldner did some chopblocks.

bzing said:

I'm just curious show me at least one example video where a BH chopblock is being executed in the 38mm era, and with the exact same chopblock that can be seen in the first video posted on top of this thread at 12:30 by Ma Long.

And I want to see not some half-ar*ed chopblock but the kind of quality chop block that is at 12:30 in that video I posted.

I know that shot at 12:30 is more of a sidespin block/twister, and the chop block usually goes the opposite way, but either way show me the exact same shot that Ma Long did there by any other player in 38mm era I'm curious.

Regarding the drop shots, I see them plenty of times in today's matches, that includes with the added sideswipe.

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Bear in mind that the new P 40+ ball's got way less speed and rotation than the 38mm cell. That's why you can see more players like also Gauzy or Niwa doing it nowadays. It's been largely documented by international coaches like Patrick Chila and also the ITTF.

Fact is: that stroke was way more difficult to do in that 38mm cell ball speed glue era. Players had to do a way smaller stroke motion to counter the ball's rotation, that's why the game was more technical than today's being more athletic.

Music&Ping said:

today's being more athletic.

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Do you think if Ma Long were himself but 10cm or 15cm or 20cm higher and proportionally heavier, he would be even better player?

Watch this video and learn, son.

bzing said:

I'm just curious show me at least one example video where a BH chopblock is being executed in the 38mm era, and with the exact same chopblock that can be seen in the first video posted on top of this thread at 12:30 by Ma Long.

And I want to see not some half-ar*ed chopblock but the kind of quality chop block that is at 12:30 in that video I posted.

I know that shot at 12:30 is more of a sidespin block/twister, and the chop block usually goes the opposite way, but either way show me the exact same shot that Ma Long did there by any other player in 38mm era I'm curious.

Regarding the drop shots, I see them plenty of times in today's matches, that includes with the added sideswipe.

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Standing on the shoulders of giants is a metaphor which means "Using the understanding gained by major thinkers who have gone before in order to make intellectual progress".
Start at 36:00 to see where most playesr learned the chop-block. In fact all top coaches have seen this video and used much of it to train players of today. Remember, this video was made around 30years ago.
The game of 25 years ago was much faster than today. In fact it was faster with greater spin than the players could reasonably react. The ITTF in response to complaints, brought in bigger, slower balls so that the rallies could be longer and the cameras actually follow the balls. That's why experienced older players will tell you that the game has been dumbed down for the millennial softies...........Not really. But grumpy old men will be grumpy old men .

Lula said:

I think Kong linghui and Waldner did some chopblocks.

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JO has famous clips of those.

Lula said:

Agree with above. Chinese play a bit like mass produced robots.

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What is wrong if they play like that? Chinese players are trained to win not to look good on how they play. If they play like robots and win world championships, what is it to them? The way they play now, i do not think any other styles of play or training can beat them.

Ma Long can be very creative in how he plays. The shot bzing is referring to is pretty sweet, artistic.

I am just not sure Ma Long needs to be compared to anyone based on that shot. There are other players who spontaneously do really cool shots. But I don't know that anybody is going to duplicate that shot. Heck, I wonder if Ma Long could do it again on command or if he just read the play and decided that was what he wanted to try.

Never said it was any wrong with it, just maybe not so fun to watch all the time. I agree the focus is to win. Think to many new players focus too much on the cool shots like looping hard with a lot of spin. Like the OP said the Chinese do this but in my opinion not the main reason why you win games.

yogi_bear said:

What is wrong if they play like that? Chinese players are trained to win not to look good on how they play. If they play like robots and win world championships, what is it to them? The way they play now, i do not think any other styles of play or training can beat them.

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Lula said:

Agree with above. Chinese play a bit like mass produced robots.

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Lula said:

Never said it was any wrong with it, just maybe not so fun to watch all the time. I agree the focus is to win. Think to many new players focus too much on the cool shots like looping hard with a lot of spin. Like the OP said the Chinese do this but in my opinion not the main reason why you win games.

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Not necessarily fun to watch all the time but their playstyle should be appreciated more wherein the difficulty of executing those types of play including the fast footworks, exchanges of counters and the speed level and by.those things mentioned, imo, they are fun to watch if we appreciate more.

yogi_bear said:

Not necessarily fun to watch all the time but their playstyle should be appreciated more wherein the difficulty of executing those types of play including the fast footworks, exchanges of counters and the speed level and by.those things mentioned, imo, they are fun to watch if we appreciate more.

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Some appreciation

Lula said:

Do not think they play much more powerful than the Europeans but the Chinese footwork is much much better than the Europeans. That is the most impressive thing about the Chinese. They move very well and stand correct so can play a better shot where as we Europeans many times do not stand correct and can not play as good shot.

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latej said:

Do you think if Ma Long were himself but 10cm or 15cm or 20cm higher and proportionally heavier, he would be even better player?

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I don't think so: he's already tall and playing a very physical attacking style, that's why his left knee has sufered a lot since the last 3 or 4 years... plastic ball again... see what I mean ? some coaches say that Zhang Jike is down today because of the plastic ball: many shoulder injuries.

The problem is that TT requires also to be not that tall, taller players have a deficit in tonicity, not the same muscles definition, difference between morphologies, that's why Samsonov is still in the TOP 30 at nearly 50 with a less physically demanding system.

The french Damien Eloi, now 51, still plays the 2nd Bundesliga, 2 years ago he was the best performer in that league: he mostly plays very short rallies, very agressive style, and he's very light (56/59 Kg) and small (1m65), high musuclar tonicity. Total opposite of Samsonov.
https://www.facebook.com/LSCTT/videos/demo-flip-du-coup-droit-de-damien-eloi/564324064217503/


Another example of someone having repeated injuries nowadays with P ball: Timo Boll, his game is very demanding, he's not a powerfull agressive player but his game is based on longer rallies, with a "softer" 3rd ball. Maybe he isn't as tonic as the game requires today.

The people who adapted very well are obviously asian players, because of their smaller height and higher musuclar tonicity, in that case Lin Gaoyuan and Ma Long are exceptions, being athletic is not only about power, it's also about the repetitive moves TT requires today.Either you have to play a very short rallies system à la Eloi, either you have to be tonic à la Fan Zhen Dong. As the P ball comes back more often, tonicity matters equally as power today.

bzing said:

He's doing a chop blocks to the left (from his perspective), but this isn't the same sidespin-block to the right (from players perspective) that you can see Ma Long doing at 12:30 in the video I posted. In fact show me any match, a single time where Waldner ever did the sidespin BH block that is at 12:30. That one he's doing there it's just a chop-block to the left and it's nowhere near as complex as the one that Ma Long is doing at 12:30.

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Chop-Block to the right with Waldner @ 1:55 vs Timo Boll

You're welcome

Music&Ping said:

I don't think so: he's already tall and playing a very physical attacking style, that's why his left knee has sufered a lot since the last 3 or 4 years... plastic ball again... see what I mean ? some coaches say that Zhang Jike is down today because of the plastic ball: many shoulder injuries.

The problem is that TT requires also to be not that tall, taller players have a deficit in tonicity, not the same muscles definition, difference between morphologies, that's why Samsonov is still in the TOP 30 at nearly 50 with a less physically demanding system.

The french Damien Eloi, now 51, still plays the 2nd Bundesliga, 2 years ago he was the best performer in that league: he mostly plays very short rallies, very agressive style, and he's very light (56/59 Kg) and small (1m65), high musuclar tonicity. Total opposite of Samsonov.
https://www.facebook.com/LSCTT/videos/demo-flip-du-coup-droit-de-damien-eloi/564324064217503/

The people who adapted very well are obviously asian players, because of their smaller height and higher musuclar tonicity, in that case Lin Gaoyuan and Ma Long are exceptions, being athletic is not only about power, it's also about the repetitive moves TT requires today.Either you have to play a very short rallies system à la Eloi, either you have to be tonic à la Fan Zhen Dong. As the P ball comes back more often, tonicity matters equally as power today.

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Understand, good points. I was wondering whether the TT would, because of table dimension and height, more strongly favor certain body height than other sports. But it seems the consensus is that the body height matters much less than other stuff...

Well body height comes as a result of that equation: you're more likely to find muscular tonicity with smaller people than with taller. As an example in another sport I know very well (as I've been praticing it in my youth before TT): Volley Ball. The introduction of the libero made the game more spectacular to watch with more rallies due to the libero's tonicity/speed.

You'd say "but the tall guys in Voley Ball have strong legs to jump that high to attack, tonicity also matters for them" ... yeah right, but mostly for high jumps purpose, when it comes to lateral and back moves, small morphologies are better adapted. This is exactly what modern TT requires.

Music&Ping said:

Well body height comes as a result of that equation: you're more likely to find muscular tonicity with smaller people than with taller. As an example in another sport I know very well (as I've been praticing it in my youth before TT): Volley Ball. The introduction of the libero made the game more spectacular to watch with more rallies due to the libero's tonicity/speed.

You'd say "but the tall guys in Voley Ball have strong legs to jump that high to attack, tonicity also matters for them" ... yeah right, but mostly for high jumps purpose, when it comes to lateral and back moves, small morphologies are better adapted. This is exactly what modern TT requires.

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OK, so if Ma Long were higher, he would possibly have lower tonicity, and as a result he might have been worse (or maybe more like different style)?

I know it's a lot of what-ifs, but let's say he were 10cm higher and had same tonicity, what then? Edit: he'd be like Wang Liqin

P.S. I guess you know Yuji Nishida. Recently got suggested (for unknown reason): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCr7EZqiV4

The little spiker yeah I know him well, and he's the perfect example of what I've been saying here: he's the height of a libero, but can jump as high as guys 30 to 40 cm taller than him.
This match was insane, and Japan has made the right decision to hire Philippe Blain as a NT coach: 3rd with France and winner with Poland at the World Championship, one of the best coach, look at the obvious height difference between Bulgaria and Japan

I think so about your "if" about Ma Long: it's a problem already for his left knee, so I guess 10 cm taller would be an issue. transitioning to a less physical game à la Samwonov would be, to me, the only positive issue possible.

Evolution will likely to make us grow higher with better tonicity for sure

Can you define "tonicity" based on the way you are using it?

Are you suggesting that taller people have less muscle tone? Does that mean they are not as strong or capable of athletic achievement? How about lateral movement? I think you mentioned something about that.

Michael Jordan 6'6" (198+cm).



Or is 6'6" not what you meant by taller? I do believe MJ had amazing skills in lateral movement. No?



I guess Lennox Lewis at 6'5" may not qualify for tall, strong and with well defined musculature.

And, interestingly, sometimes someone who does not have clear cut muscle definition can really be quite strong:



I would just be careful of how you use anecdotal stories and things observed while presenting them as facts and then basing assumptions on those "facts".

I would also note, based on how much less training a player like Quadri Aruna had compared to most top pros, and how, in many ways his technique seems like, perhaps it could have been improved, he still, with less experience, less training, imperfect technique, and being what many would say is a bit too tall, he still gave the top players in the world a run for their money at one point.

So, I am not sure at all that height has much to do with athletic achievement or "tonicity" or strength or muscle tone, in ways that it appears you are suggesting.

I could be wrong. And some of this might have to do with misunderstanding what you mean by the word "tonicity". But.....I think Ma Long is really just an amazing talent and I doubt we need to claim to understand the underlying causes.