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  1. lodro is offline
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    #81
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Another thing to consider is sponge thickness, if you are playing sanctioned tourneys etc the easy check is for the 4mm thickness of top sheet, most players avoid the DHS 2.2mm sponges, and go for the 2.15mm versions, allows for more coats of glue and booster!!!

    like many of you I really don’t care if people boost etc, I’ve tried it out and can take or leave it !! I’m inclined to leave it at present, mainly because if you play a lot, league matches, training etc you’ll likely need 2 set ups, so when 1 needs re-boosting you can use the other one. Also, at my level of play, does using a boosted rubber improve my level, unlikely.
    However it is FUN when you boost and see that dome !!!!
    This reflects pretty much what I have learned in this post.
    So, I shall do most things, including soon my boosting and I book it under ""Occupational Therapy"" and if it is not FUN, why should we even bother

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    #82
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinSquid


    Thanks for all this insight!

    Does DHS make a non-Neo version of the 37 degree Hurricane for the provincial players that use it on their backhand? From what I've seen so far, the 37 degree Hurricane is just Neo.

    If the 37 degree Hurricane only has a Neo version, do they have a different way of boosting it? (Since the Neo versions already have a few layers of VoC free glue)
    There is a non neo H3 37 degrees and i think it is the one in a dsrk purple packaging. I still prefer the commercial 37 degree neo since when boosted, is already a good rubber to use both sides. No, the boosted H3s are not necessarily better than euro rubbers. They need at least more effort.

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    #83
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinSquid


    Thanks for all this insight!

    Does DHS make a non-Neo version of the 37 degree Hurricane for the provincial players that use it on their backhand? From what I've seen so far, the 37 degree Hurricane is just Neo.

    If the 37 degree Hurricane only has a Neo version, do they have a different way of boosting it? (Since the Neo versions already have a few layers of VoC free glue)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    It's ok. I by no means am as a good level and knowledgeable as yogi_bear or Carl or Der_Echte so don't buy my answers too much. yogi_bear talks short but he's a master of H3. But I'm certainly enjoying talking about my own doing.

    40 degree on my forehand could be a little too hard if I had a H3 coach but I like the feel so I just stick with it.
    On backhand I use Rakza Z, which is probably as hard as MX-P 50, or 39 degree DHS, and Ifeeling ok with it just before the 3rd English lockdown. Rakza Z feels much bouncier and "softer" though as I switch to it sometimes to have understanding. I certainly can't loop with it on the forehand, feeling too soft and too quick. Ball goes out all the time and I don't feel that "sticky" touch. The difference is large too me. Some more experienced players (like yogi_bear) may not feel that way as they are much better at adapting.

    So I don't know much about H3 on backhand unfortunately.
    I am an an expert on H3 though i have used it for almost 20yrs now but i can talk a lot of things on how to use it. As far as olaying gies, i am just an average player with correct strokes. When it comes to fast rubbers like Rakza Z, i prefer Rakza Z on an all wood blade. That is why my Rakza Z EH is on the Falck W7 now. I usually tell people nowadays that due to faster and bouncier rubbers, a 7 ply all wood blade is enough to give you good speed but with good control if you use fast ESN rubbers.

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    #84
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    You don’t see the 38 degree DHS for sale often though!!
    Degree 38 at H3 is not so widely used.
    It is more of a rubber for a backhand or for a all-round player.
    dhs-729.eu

  5. lodro is offline
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    #85
    Quote Originally Posted by harty
    Degree 38 at H3 is not so widely used.
    It is more of a rubber for a backhand or for a all-round player.
    So true, and when it for sale it seems to be more expensive to buy than many of the harder NEOs.
    A trend , maybe ?

    Not a trend but hard fact is that in the commercial NEO-range the harder they are the cheaper they sell

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    #86
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro
    So true, and when it for sale it seems to be more expensive to buy than many of the harder NEOs.
    A trend , maybe ?

    Not a trend but hard fact is that in the commercial NEO-range the harder they are the cheaper they sell
    Of course, traders make their own prices.
    The purchase price is the same for all hardnesses.
    The exceptions are the provincial and national versions.
    dhs-729.eu

  7. Music&Ping is offline
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    #87
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    I agree with Music&Ping's hard position that it is illegal, we should not use it, it's official, point, end of discussion. That is the higher ground.

    But, first, on my level, no-one cares. Also I do not care if some one uses speed glue when playing against me, and people still do. And second, I also disagree with this particular rule against booster oil.

    (Edit: The way I wrote this is not very lucky. Peace.)
    Hi latej how’s it going ? I’ve just read the PM you sent me yesterday.

    I’m sticking on that « higher ground » for many reasons. And health concerns too.

    1- booster is made of gas, gas is volatile. Speed glue has been banned because of volatile gas that caused health problems. But as a player who started TT in the 80’s, I’ve used speed glue, I’ve seen some people doing some really weird and unconventional process with speed glue and rubbers: re-activating the speed glue effect with ... trychloroethylene ! on a tibhar Dang, see what I mean... it was a chinese made rubber by tibhar who wanted the real tacky rubber and hard sponge thing. It was literaly stinking all over the sport hall because of those guys. No need to mention the special glueing rooms in tournaments, some people would literaly get nauseous.

    2- you’ll tell me: « I do this at home, no health concerns for other people than me. » fine, but how do we know you’re using a « legal » process ? in that case, why not stick to speed glue still as it is way simpler to use , and as some stores still sell it ? you do it at home, it lasts 1 day, fine. https://www.silver-equipment.com/col...e-1-litre.html

    3- in the vas majority of tournaments, there’s no testing device indeed... even for speed glue ! In that case, why not sticking with the good old speed glue ? only because it « could » be detected ?

    4- As I’ve said in other threads, the problem is not players like you, or me, the non pros. If you’re a pro, then you’ve got a serious problem. The problem is when you play at a national level where the ITTF rules apply in most of the countries now. I guess that at the level you play in lower tournaments or leagues, there will be still many players with fair glue, rubbers and blades that will be able to beat you...

    5- are the ITTF rules being hypocritical ? of course they do, as long as there’s no efficient testing device, as long as China do what ever possible to screw the game with its custom rubbers made to CNT players requirements and not making them available on the market, and as long as ITTF officials bend their knee because putting everyone in the same glueing room only 2 or 3 hours before the tournament starts to check the players glueing process would literaly offend the chinese delegation. This is where the ITTF is being hypocritical. China uses TT as « soft power » but beware, they do with their own rules.

    To me, it does not obey the LARC regulations. We all know what protectionism is. Euro/jap/korean players boost euro/jap/korean rubbers, there are known on the worldwide market, no custom requirements allowed to fit in the LARC regulations, Butterfly is very clear and strict about it. Not the same with blades of course as it easy to control: the maximum synthetic material thickness ratio, the blade’s color. Fine.

    6- sooner or later, a device will be available to detect boosters, where will it be used ? national level tournaments and leagues only of course, I know it well... as it’s the same for speed glue now. Will amateur level players then used another chinese game screwing process because « it’s ok it cannot be detected » ? when at the same time they will never see any testing device in their whole journey ? who’s being hypocritical ... now ?

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  8. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping

    2- you’ll tell me: « I do this at home, no health concerns for other people than me. » fine, but how do we know you’re using a « legal » process ? in that case, why not stick to speed glue still as it is way simpler to use , and as some stores still sell it ? you do it at home, it lasts 1 day, fine. https://www.silver-equipment.com/col...e-1-litre.html
    Actually here in Poland, a lot of people still use speed glue in hobby player lounge. No one bothers with arguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    4- As I’ve said in other threads, the problem is not players like you, or me, the non pros. If you’re a pro, then you’ve got a serious problem. The problem is when you play at a national level where the ITTF rules apply in most of the countries now. I guess that at the level you play in lower tournaments or leagues, there will be still many players with fair glue, rubbers and blades that will be able to beat you...
    You are missing the point though. On low level boosting does not give an edge per se, it helps you feel the ball better. Have ever used (not necessary owned, or boosted yourself) boosted Chinese tacky rubber? (this question is not meant to discriminate you, just making sure you know what you are referring to)

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    Last edited by Kuba Hajto; 01-19-2021 at 10:38 AM.

  9. Der_Echte is offline
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    #89
    I say bring BACK the FRICTIONLESS OX LP RUBBERS and let old farts and young-'uns slap that stuff on their blade and block away... the young kids and the macho-man wanna be players who forgot what spin they put on the ball a second ago lose and cry 10 rivers full of crocodile tears... and the parent of that junior kid who lost move to the old dude to choke him out for making hiz kid cry... that was epic stuff back in the day.

    ...meanwhile, those who can remember their spin, can see the ball, who can make the shots... they laughin' their azz off all the way to the scoreboard to add point after point.

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  10. Tango K is offline
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    #90
    I still don't believe that the new boosters still base on volatile gas. They've been around for a long while and that theory is still a myth. If that's true, it's very likely that it has become a common knowledge. Second, they last very long. I kinda buy what the other member said (I forgot his name, sorry), that they base on liquid. I've heard a lot of people use baby oil, olive oil, all sort of oil as alternative and they work similarly.

    A lot of people get confused because of "booster's smell". But well, everything on this earth has its own smell. Even iron has smell. Olive oil has very very strong smell (which makes us love it). It's just that smell is new to some that they tend to be on guard (which is reasonable). Any piece of natural rubber has much worse smell but we are just accustomed to it as we touch it everyday. And if you try to sniff your bat handle.................................

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    Last edited by Tango K; 01-19-2021 at 11:15 AM.

  11. latej is offline
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    #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    I’m sticking on that « higher ground » for many reasons. And health concerns too.
    Hi, I know you do, and not only in the question of boosting. That's why I respect that.

    The trichlorethylene is crazy. I agree with the speed glue ban. I don't demand it, but agree with the ban. If the booster contains dangerous chemicals, it's not good. I heard Falco does, so I try to minimize the contact. But it should be possible to have health neutral booster oil. That would be a good compromise, don't you think? And I'd comply (not that it matters). In fact if someone knows about health neutral booster oil, please let know. Those rubbers were meant to be boosted, nicely "tensioned" :-) Now banning it feels like some childish power-game.

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    #92
    The only source that says Falco contains something dangerous that I've ever found is from EmRatThich I have to say I love the guy and reading his blog at my beginning days was very helpful. But the Falco thing is just an opinion, his opinion in the end of the day.

    I do handle booster with care too 'cause I'm a sceptical guy and I handle everything with care anyway. But that's different from believing that it's really harmful.

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    #93
    Here is an example using baby oil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8BJrg3P7Z4

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  14. Music&Ping is offline
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    #94
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Now banning it feels like some childish power-game.
    As I've said, everyone, ITTF included, is being hypocritical with boosting, you could say childish so of course ! because no one, ITTF included, puts the minimum effort to really make efficient any control, the more simple would be: you come 3 hours before the tournament starts, you glue your racket in front of officials, and done. That's plain simple.

    Now it's not sensible to do that with non pros of course, so stick with your boosters, and even your speed glue then ! as long as you won't see any testing device at any amateur level.

    The problem is: honesty, because there are rules actually, and the rules are plain simple. It can be harmful or not, any chemical treatment is not allowed.

    Now about honesty at a lower and non pro level, why not telling your opponent before the match starts "ok so to be honest and fair, I'm currently using boosted rubbers on that racket, I've also got one non boosted, is it annoying you if I use the boosted racket ?" then your opponent decides if you stick with that racket... or not.

    If I were an umpire in an official ITTF match, I would check Ma Long's racket, then ask him 2 questions:
    1- is one of your rubber being glued with a speed glue or one of those boosters (I'd show him a list) ?
    --> if he says "yes": then I ask his opponent if it's ok ... or not ok. I'd not be allowed to disqualify Ma Long cos' I don't have any testing device to control anything, except the rubber's thickness. Then he could face an official claim filled by his opponent.
    --> if he says "no", then I ask him:
    2- is there any reason not to trust you ? people's face always tells a lot...
    Last edited by Music&Ping; 01-19-2021 at 01:58 PM.

  15. Music&Ping is offline
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    #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto
    Actually here in Poland, a lot of people still use speed glue in hobby player lounge. No one bothers with arguing.



    You are missing the point though. On low level boosting does not give an edge per se, it helps you feel the ball better. Have ever used (not necessary owned, or boosted yourself) boosted Chinese tacky rubber? (this question is not meant to discriminate you, just making sure you know what you are referring to)
    I don't have to since I obey the rules, and since the rules are well written. Honesty matters to me, first and foremost. I am my own self umpire. That's the 1st thing that should be taught to childrens in TT clubs "Be honest, be your own self umpire."

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    Last edited by Music&Ping; 01-19-2021 at 02:33 PM.

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    #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    I say bring BACK the FRICTIONLESS OX LP RUBBERS and let old farts and young-'uns slap that stuff on their blade and block away... the young kids and the macho-man wanna be players who forgot what spin they put on the ball a second ago lose and cry 10 rivers full of crocodile tears... and the parent of that junior kid who lost move to the old dude to choke him out for making hiz kid cry... that was epic stuff back in the day.

    ...meanwhile, those who can remember their spin, can see the ball, who can make the shots... they laughin' their azz off all the way to the scoreboard to add point after point.
    Similar thing with the old ‘same colour rubbers’, anti spin and spinny !! Yeah, maybe the colour difference is a valid change, it makes it a good bit easier !!! At the time it was a real sod to play guys using anti spin and spinny rubbers, especially if they could actually ‘play’, I remember playing one fella in a local league tournament, he was a ‘county’ player and went on to win the event, played him in 1st round group stage, it was a case of ‘what the ****’
    he would have beat me with a std set up regardless. But when you’ve never seen that style of play ........ game over and it was!!!!
    Never really saw long pip players back then, would have been a real bitch with same colour rubbers!!!

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    #97
    Two color rule is sound and fair to me. The serve rules, on ball toss are often difficult to tell if player actually "tossed" the al 16cm... so a rule requiring ball to go at least top of head high would be easier to comply with and enforce... still wouldn't fix the hidden serves... but if umpire had a hot branding iron or a Rottweiler handy, it would be a game changer.

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    #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Two color rule is sound and fair to me. The serve rules, on ball toss are often difficult to tell if player actually "tossed" the al 16cm... so a rule requiring ball to go at least top of head high would be easier to comply with and enforce... still wouldn't fix the hidden serves... but if umpire had a hot branding iron or a Rottweiler handy, it would be a game changer.

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
    Yeah, I can be guilty of a low ball toss, mainly on BH serve, working on it though!! Just slips in if I don’t remember to actually think about it as part of the serve routine, it’s not totally ‘automatic’ yet!! I’ll drill it in eventually!!
    FH serve arm shields sometimes, cos of the ‘good old days’ when this was allowed!!! frickin muscle memory kicks in now and again!! Much better now than when I first started back!!

    watched a local league vid at the weekend, this guy was tossing the ball at least 24 inches from when it left his hand, his hand then tilted and shielded some of the ball following the ball upwards, then the hand stopped about 8 inches (200mm) below the top height ball rose, so illegal because he shielded after ball left his hand, but did he get an advantage?? There was still 200mm ‘free sight’ of the ball, awkward!! I’d let it go because more than 160mm of upward toss could be seen.

    may be because I play local league level that foul serves don’t get called often, no one really likes upsetting people. Next season I may take a hard line approach when I umpire and yep a big toothy guard dog would be a good idea!!!

    As for the hidden serves, that’s hard to call at present!! Rule change required!!

  19. Music&Ping is offline
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    #99
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Yeah, I can be guilty of a low ball toss, mainly on BH serve, working on it though!! Just slips in if I don’t remember to actually think about it as part of the serve routine, it’s not totally ‘automatic’ yet!! I’ll drill it in eventually!!
    FH serve arm shields sometimes, cos of the ‘good old days’ when this was allowed!!! frickin muscle memory kicks in now and again!! Much better now than when I first started back!!

    watched a local league vid at the weekend, this guy was tossing the ball at least 24 inches from when it left his hand, his hand then tilted and shielded some of the ball following the ball upwards, then the hand stopped about 8 inches (200mm) below the top height ball rose, so illegal because he shielded after ball left his hand, but did he get an advantage?? There was still 200mm ‘free sight’ of the ball, awkward!! I’d let it go because more than 160mm of upward toss could be seen.

    may be because I play local league level that foul serves don’t get called often, no one really likes upsetting people. Next season I may take a hard line approach when I umpire and yep a big toothy guard dog would be a good idea!!!

    As for the hidden serves, that’s hard to call at present!! Rule change required!!
    A US coach wrote something similar, though you're still really wrong about hiddden serves, as the rule is well written there too: as a referee you don't have to allow ANY serve if you see it's wrong, it's not a self-interpretating process: you have to enforce the law in that case. Now if you choose to let the opponent fill a claim against you, the referee, it's your own self choice, but that would not give you a good reputation.

    Before the speed glue ban everything was clear indeed: speed glue allowed, free arm camouflage allowed on serves. It was clear because it needed no device or eye control process by officials to make sure everything was legal.

    The problem is that ITTF is insisting on putting the cart before the horse: ban everything, but sort this out yourself to enforce our laws. As an umpire, referee or official facing issues in international meetings, I would definitely fill a claim to the ITTF for not supporting our job as it should be done.

    http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2195
    Last edited by Music&Ping; 01-21-2021 at 02:30 PM.

  20. lodro is offline
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    #100
    """"The only reason to ignore the serving rules is to gain an unfair advantage. """""

    This could of course also be said for boosting

    On big international events they still check for speed glue with the "sniffer-thingy" even though all the top players have long moved on to Voc-boosters.
    International Associations are always "behind".

    The new 17 camera system can detect most illegal serves but who knows if anybody really wants it.

    On a small club level , when one points out illegal serves one gets told that it does not matter , after all it is just a club game and we do not play for a golden cow.
    This is wrong. Even at the very beginner level and especially junior levels, legal serves should be enforced.
    This will create good habits.

    end of waffle.

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