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  1. Richie is offline
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    #121
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Truth be told, that is really just modern movement theory. When a movement is more efficient it is safer and the mechanics are more effective.

    Where you get into things that are interesting is, because we all REALLY have different bodies, something that might be efficient for me may not be for someone else. Forearm length, upper arm length, shape and range of motion in shoulder joint, legs, hips, length of spine, shape of vertebra.

    This is part of why you see ML, ZJK, FZD or any other top player have such different strokes. ML's strokes may not work as well for ZJK's body. And these players developed their technique through years of practice.

    One thing Schlager had besides his serves was an amazing BH. He was awkward in turning to FH. But, he is still doing a hell of a lot that is efficient in how he meets the ball or he would not get so much power.

    One of the ways to see efficiency in technique is the effortless quality. The work might be hard. But the performance of that work still has an effortless quality. This is the case in great dancers, gymnasts, or any other physical endeavor. Say, with a great dancer, and comparing that dancer to a really good dancer, they will do a lot of the same things, the same movements. The great dancer will make those movements look more effortless. The really good dancer will still do the same movements and do them quite well. But you will see a little more of the effort in their movement quality.

    But what technique will be right for a person, will be dependent on so many things including joints, muscles, fitness level, bone lengths.

    What is consistent is that it will always be a complex chain of events, kinetic chains, synchronous movement patterns and muscle actions that create the movement. And the things that one should be paying attention to while performing those movements are often not the ones people would think they should be paying attention to. And certainly, paying attention to the biomechanics of the movement while attempting the movement will interfere with the process.
    Completely agree Carl, I'm trying to make a similar point, but you put it more eloquently. Your writing technique is better than mine

    @Lula, yes I think players playing closer to the table would use less of everything, as there's less time.

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  2. vvk1 is offline
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    #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    "What is wrong with you guys? By the time you feel anything the ball is long gone."

    Irony!!! I am reminded of the infamous Coefficient of Restitution thread at MyTT, which was actually how I became a moderator there. That flame war was possibly the longest in TT Forum history. It started with someone talking about blade "dwell time". BB (using a different name in those days) jumped in with arguments about the physics of the blade (undoubtedly correct, heavily infused with expositions on the Coefficient of Restitution). He was very upset with me when I pointed out that human ability to perceive a ball hitting the blade requires more than two orders of magnitude more time than what some people had measured for actual racket dwell times.

    BB was angry at everybody, not just me. But definitely mad at me. His demeanor on this thread is VERY polite and reserved by comparison. People started to demand that he should be banned along with the notorious AgentHex, who was far more aggressive than BB). But, a moderator at the time (who also posts now under a different name) defended BB and AgentHex vigorously. (It turns out that he and AgentHex were clubmates). I told the moderator he was doing an incredibly crappy job of moderating the thread. The mod got pissed off and said, "ok, I've had it, I quit! You think you can do a better job, you do it!".

    And so I did. I was definitely stricter about stepping in to stop flame wars.

    Now I wonder if it was a mistake. In fact I'm quite sure of it. Several of the chronic flamers stopped posting. One in particular, who went by Assiduous, stopped posting. BB and AgentHex were banned permanently (both have been banned at every major English language forum at least once). Things are generally more civil.

    And it is boring as hell.

    Now I pretty much only intervene to stop for sale scamming, spammers of various sorts, and to eliminate grossly racist or homophobic comments.

    It turns out, people like the flame wars. Its a bit like watching professional wrestling. You can think of BB as like the villain in a WWE match (I'm pretty sure he takes himself a lot more seriously than that).
    Was it the "dwelltime" thread (http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/d...ic62442.html)? If not, any chance you could post a link to it - I'd love to re-live some of that drama ????

  3. brokenball is offline
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    #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    "What is wrong with you guys? By the time you feel anything the ball is long gone."

    This is what is so frustrating. Baal pointed this out long ago.
    Irony!!! I am reminded of the infamous Coefficient of Restitution thread at MyTT, which was actually how I became a moderator there. That flame war was possibly the longest in TT Forum history. It started with someone talking about blade "dwell time". BB (using a different name in those days) jumped in with arguments about the physics of the blade (undoubtedly correct, heavily infused with expositions on the Coefficient of Restitution). He was very upset with me when I pointed out that human ability to perceive a ball hitting the blade requires more than two orders of magnitude more time than what some people had measured for actual racket dwell times.
    I wasn't upset with you for pointing out it took so long to feel the ball. I understood that. I was upset with you because you were till calling it dwell time. I called it touchy feelly time. Some of the forum understood what I was trying to say. I got private messages. They wouldn't speak on the forum because they didn't want to take the crap I did. There were lots of ad hominem attacks that the moderators ignored.

    That was frustrating because everyone had their opinions. NO ONE would do the easiest calculations. There were people that claimed to have PhDs in physic and they hid. No one could justify the long dwell times they were claiming. That was Anton's "Obscure Question" thread. At that time I was communicating with Fatt and showed him the videos I had that backed up my point. I didn't reveal the videos to the forum because I wanted just one person to make an estimate. Years later Baal made his "napkin" estimation. It was crude because he assumed the ball decelerated at a linear rate when in fact the ball decelerates faster as the sponge is compressed and resistance builds. He also assumed the rubber maintained contact with the ball in the rebound for the full distance of the penetration. However, Baal's estimation was close. Baal's estimation didn't assume the balled "dwelled" on the paddle which is good.

    I really don't like the term "dwell" time. It suggests the ball "dwells" on the paddle. I prefer contact time.

    I finally posted my high speed and very grainy videos of the ball hitting the paddle. That answered the "dwell" time question of most although some still refer to the "touchy feelly" time.
    I now have a much better high speed camera that is more sensitive to light and records in color. However, it is a lot of work to make these videos.

    I like the comment above about the forum being boring as hell.
    Yes, it can be very boring when it is obvious that forums will intimidate people that opposes the myths.

    Anyway, there is no need to post more on this thread. I have made my point. What is sad is that many will still spread the myths about accelerating through the ball. I see comments above that opinions are more important in the end. Very sad.

  4. Baal is offline
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    #124
    Yes vk1. That is the nightmare

  5. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #125
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I finally posted my high speed and very grainy videos of the ball hitting the paddle. That answered the "dwell" time question of most although some still refer to the "touchy feelly" time.
    I now have a much better high speed camera that is more sensitive to light and records in color. However, it is a lot of work to make these videos.
    Something to note, even the grainy videos are worth watching.
    Spin Everything.

  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    Completely agree Carl, I'm trying to make a similar point, but you put it more eloquently. Your writing technique is better than mine
    It is good to have similar ideas voiced in different ways by a few different people.

    As far as the writing....perhaps writing has something to do with it. But it is worth understanding that movement analysis and identifying dysfunctional patterns of movement and posture that are habitual and getting people to remove the unwanted tension, and replace dysfunctional movement patterns with more functional ones is a large part of my job.

    So, there is a reason I was in a class on movement theory decades ago. And, I have been sorting out ways to express this kind of content for a quite a while.

    I am fond of saying, I am not a TT coach, I am not a very high level player. But I understand movement decently well.

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  7. tropical is offline
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    #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    "What is wrong with you guys? By the time you feel anything the ball is long gone."

    Irony!!! I am reminded of the infamous Coefficient of Restitution thread at MyTT, which was actually how I became a moderator there. That flame war was possibly the longest in TT Forum history. It started with someone talking about blade "dwell time". BB (using a different name in those days) jumped in with arguments about the physics of the blade (undoubtedly correct, heavily infused with expositions on the Coefficient of Restitution). He was very upset with me when I pointed out that human ability to perceive a ball hitting the blade requires more than two orders of magnitude more time than what some people had measured for actual racket dwell times.

    BB was angry at everybody, not just me. But definitely mad at me. His demeanor on this thread is VERY polite and reserved by comparison. People started to demand that he should be banned along with the notorious AgentHex, who was far more aggressive than BB). But, a moderator at the time (who also posts now under a different name) defended BB and AgentHex vigorously. (It turns out that he and AgentHex were clubmates). I told the moderator he was doing an incredibly crappy job of moderating the thread. The mod got pissed off and said, "ok, I've had it, I quit! You think you can do a better job, you do it!".

    And so I did. I was definitely stricter about stepping in to stop flame wars.

    Now I wonder if it was a mistake. In fact I'm quite sure of it. Several of the chronic flamers stopped posting. One in particular, who went by Assiduous, stopped posting. BB and AgentHex were banned permanently (both have been banned at every major English language forum at least once). Things are generally more civil.

    And it is boring as hell.

    Now I pretty much only intervene to stop for sale scamming, spammers of various sorts, and to eliminate grossly racist or homophobic comments.

    It turns out, people like the flame wars. Its a bit like watching professional wrestling. You can think of BB as like the villain in a WWE match (I'm pretty sure he takes himself a lot more seriously than that).
    "It is boring as hell". True! This is the only 2nd thread that I read in many months (the other was Der's long pip ladies).

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  8. Baal is offline
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    #128
    Tropical, good to see you here!

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  9. Der_Echte is offline
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    #129
    tropical, are you part of the pips mafia at Swan? Did you see me with Kash so many months ago?
    President, Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club. Hit us up on TTD or Facebook
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  10. Der_Echte is offline
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    #130
    Sergey Scoobie Doo Tsos is gunna read this whole thread (in 8.4 hrs) and slap his forehead a few times. Heck, this might actually get him to post.
    President, Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club. Hit us up on TTD or Facebook
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  11. Lula is offline
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    #131
    Is scoobey doo actually real?

  12. Der_Echte is offline
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    #132
    Hi Lula,

    Sergey is a real and legit TT player in my local area, has been here several decades. He reads TTD, but up to this point, he has never registered and commented. I have tried, in many diverse ways, both serious and comedy, to get him to register and comment.

    It is very unfortunate that Sergey does not register and discuss the good technique, tactics, and TT life topics we have att TDD. HE could really bring a lot the table in discussions, He is a dude who can keep it real and is all about enjoying TT and performing. He has a deep understanding of techinical aspects of TT, but does not have a one size fits all approach. He understands tactics and how to employ one's skill.

    Sergey would be a very useful dude on the forum, and maybe if we ask enough about him, he will come out. It is not that he is shy or like that, dude is outgoing. He could really make a difference and has a LOT of things he could relate to a lot of different players.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-23-2021 at 09:00 AM.
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  13. tropical is offline
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    #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunpittman
    nice too meet you
    Same here Shaunpittman

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    #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    tropical, are you part of the pips mafia at Swan? Did you see me with Kash so many months ago?
    My 1st time at Swan was in Nov/20 so I don't think I saw you yet. Then I stop coming until now due to the rise in COVID cases in CA. Some LP/SP players there are BAD ...

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  15. zeio is offline
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    #135
    Quote Originally Posted by vvk1
    Was it the "dwelltime" thread (http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/d...ic62442.html)? If not, any chance you could post a link to it - I'd love to re-live some of that drama ????
    Thanks for that link. Rediscovered my own reply to AgentHEX from 2013 that happens to be relevant here. In and of itself a proof of my consistency over the years.

    http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/f...elltime#749417
    As High-level players are capable of reaching maximum velocity just before impact given their ridiculously high acceleration, they are said to have a powerful shot for they can get the same amount of work done over a much shorter period.

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  16. zeio is offline
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    #136
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I really don't like the term "dwell" time. It suggests the ball "dwells" on the paddle. I prefer contact time.

    I finally posted my high speed and very grainy videos of the ball hitting the paddle. That answered the "dwell" time question of most although some still refer to the "touchy feelly" time.
    I now have a much better high speed camera that is more sensitive to light and records in color. However, it is a lot of work to make these videos.

    Anyway, there is no need to post more on this thread. I have made my point. What is sad is that many will still spread the myths about accelerating through the ball. I see comments above that opinions are more important in the end. Very sad.
    First and foremost,

    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    FFS, stop complicating things. That's like saying "ratio of tangential COR to normal COR" is different from "throw angle".

    Dwell time = contact time/duration. Look up studies and research papers on tennis. The terms are interchangeable.

    For a decade, every such topic gets turned into a debate on nomenclature. Seriously, get over it.
    Second, you really need to see the super slowmo footage of a ball-rubber-blade interaction. Yours can't even compare. Butterfly has recently showed the one for Tenergy on TV again.

    Last, there's another paper from 2017 by former CNT player Chang Chenchen where she finds LSW consistently "accelerates through the ball" when BH looping against both topspin and backspin, only reaching maximum velocity after impact.

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    Last edited by zeio; 01-23-2021 at 05:29 PM.
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  17. vvk1 is offline
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    #137
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Thanks for that link. Rediscovered my own reply to AgentHEX from 2013 that happens to be relevant here. In and of itself a proof of my consistency over the years.

    http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/f...elltime#749417
    You're welcome :-). That thread started in a quite innocent way, and then it, well, "evolved" ... But it was fun re-reading it and remembering the various posters who seem to have gone silent over the ensuing years.

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  18. Baal is offline
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    #138
    Memory is a flawed thing. I owe BB an apology. Looking back nearly 8 years later, the main antagonist to comity was AgentHex (who got a lot worse later).

    The poster(s) we now know as BB were quite rational in that one, and it was some threads exploding later on that somehow made me into a mod (and again it pertained to AgentHex).

    Still, that completely absurd thread deeply offended the Table Tennis Gods, and they made a rule against it. No physics!! Because for sure, nobody who followed that thread became a better player because of it!

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    Last edited by Baal; 01-25-2021 at 03:56 AM.

  19. Der_Echte is offline
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    #139
    Our friend Sergey might end up a TTD Member soon...

    ... will it take California Prop 113 to get "TSOS" into TTD and posting live?

    and Friday, Sergey was pushing deep and loaded heavy in singles and doubles just DARING jokers to loop dat heavy deep underspin.
    Last edited by Der_Echte; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:21 AM.
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