Forehand Loop against UNDERSPIN Technique

Hi Cktenders
I have been coaching for some 50+ years and a tournament and league player all my life with some success.
I applaud Brian's attempt at a coaching video and I hope that my comments will help him. Subservient comments would not help him. Coaching is very important to me and I will always support it when done well, but will give my honest opinion.
Entitlement:- Brian is entitled to a fair assessment, but when he makes mistakes and asks for comments he should want the truth.
BB is an irritating guy but that doesn't make the people he annoys automatically right

c’mon sober up man.
In my book bb is nothing but a big a••h•••.Having comments is OK, but in that way, it was waaay out of line.

Suggestion to the moderator, close this thread.
 
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c’mon sober up man.
In my book bb is nothing but a big a••h•••.Having comments is OK, but in that way, it was waaay out of line.

Suggestion to the moderator, close this thread.

Its a forum, the truth is worth getting excited about from time to time. My main intention is to show that the criticism of the coaching video was valid. that's all.
 
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I have seen the video in question. I guess that those lobbying for BB to show it have a feeling that BB's abrasive attack mode posting shows a certain lack of humility deserving of punishment. However I take the view that Brian is the one who is truly lacking in humility in setting himself up as a coach, when the substance of his remarks fall well short of BB.
Brian is superior in cool factor and politeness and playing skill but inferior in coaching ability
BB is superior in tt know how, but inferior in communication
So imho BB was correct to refer to the Henzell example

Just my opinion !

How is he "setting himself up as a coach"? He presented this video as nothing more than things that have worked for him, and have been passed along to him by successful fellow players and coaches. All the things stated in the video are fundamental practices that have been used for developing players for a long time. Not a single good player has ever gotten to his level by taking BB's approach to the game, you learn to play sports by forming these mental guides in your head and adjusting the general idea as you get the feel for things.

This thread is the perfect example as to why serious players or coaches avoid forums, or don't stay for long if they come at all. It probably won't be long before this thread starter becomes another victim.


2:40 and 7:05. That's all you need to know. Except 1500 is too generous here.
 
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Its a forum, the truth is worth getting excited about from time to time. My main intention is to show that the criticism of the coaching video was valid. that's all.

The truth has nothing to do with it. It’s how the dish was served...
 
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https://deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/playing c-pen.mp4
This is a video I made in support of the c-pen players. I think playing c-pen is a natural way to play. When I made this video I hadn't played c-pen for over a month. The video is about 12 months old.
It does not demonstrate lifting heavy back spin. The only back spin occurs when my opponent serves and it isn't strong.
There is a point where I hit the ball into the net. I said I scooped it. This is due to hitting the ball too early or not starting the stroke with the paddle low enough. There is also a point where I roll by wrist after a FH shot. That is bad. I was not trying to make killer serves. We play mostly for the exercise.
I think the camera angle shows the FH loop well. My BH strokes were more like drives mostly because I am hitting the ball in front of me whereas my FH strokes start at my side.

If I didn't challenge the OP's, video who would? Yogi didn't in his first post.
 
https://deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/playing c-pen.mp4
This is a video I made in support of the c-pen players. I think playing c-pen is a natural way to play. When I made this video I hadn't played c-pen for over a month. The video is about 12 months old.
It does not demonstrate lifting heavy back spin. The only back spin occurs when my opponent serves and it isn't strong.
There is a point where I hit the ball into the net. I said I scooped it. This is due to hitting the ball too early or not starting the stroke with the paddle low enough. There is also a point where I roll by wrist after a FH shot. That is bad. I was not trying to make killer serves. We play mostly for the exercise.
I think the camera angle shows the FH loop well. My BH strokes were more like drives mostly because I am hitting the ball in front of me whereas my FH strokes start at my side.

If I didn't challenge the OP's, video who would? Yogi didn't in his first post.


There is nothing to challenge...
 
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How is he "setting himself up as a coach"? He presented this video as nothing more than things that have worked for him, and have been passed along to him by successful fellow players and coaches. All the things stated in the video are fundamental practices that have been used for developing players for a long time. Not a single good player has ever gotten to his level by taking BB's approach to the game, you learn to play sports by forming these mental guides in your head which then dictate how your body moves and interacts on the ball.

This thread is the perfect example as to why serious players or coaches avoid forums, or don't stay for long if they come at all. It probably won't be long before this thread starter becomes another victim.


2:40 and 7:05. That's all you need to know. Except 1500 is too generous here.

Hi zyu81
I enjoyed your video.
In fact my longer post outlined constructive criticisms I made of Brian's video. I also suggested that while BB was annoying he did have valid reasons for his remarks. I think forums need a mixture of types to be successful and interesting. I was a moderator on Denis TT world for some years and experienced many intense flame wars. I think the current thread is pretty civilised so far.
good luck
 
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https://deltamotion.com/peter/TableTennis/playing c-pen.mp4
This is a video I made in support of the c-pen players. I think playing c-pen is a natural way to play. When I made this video I hadn't played c-pen for over a month. The video is about 12 months old.
It does not demonstrate lifting heavy back spin. The only back spin occurs when my opponent serves and it isn't strong.
There is a point where I hit the ball into the net. I said I scooped it. This is due to hitting the ball too early or not starting the stroke with the paddle low enough. There is also a point where I roll by wrist after a FH shot. That is bad. I was not trying to make killer serves. We play mostly for the exercise.
I think the camera angle shows the FH loop well. My BH strokes were more like drives mostly because I am hitting the ball in front of me whereas my FH strokes start at my side.

If I didn't challenge the OP's, video who would? Yogi didn't in his first post.

You might have much better shots, especially on the backhand, if you tried to implement the "eating the ball" concept mentioned, rather than disregarding that concept because of your thoughts on dwell time. Every shot you hit has the same speed and no spin variation. The shots you are receiving also have very little spin so it's unclear if those techniques will hold up against heavy backspin.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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I have seen the video in question. I guess that those lobbying for BB to show it have a feeling that BB's abrasive attack mode posting shows a certain lack of humility deserving of punishment.

The thing is, if that were the case, it would also not be okay. My experience, when people who talk a lot about the videos of others, without posting footage of themselves 2 things can happen:

1) The people reading the comments don't know the context of the comments because they have no reference for the level of the player.

2) When someone does post footage of themselves, it is usually (but not always) the case that, the way they comment on others who are posting footage has more of a sense of kindness and humility even when there is criticism. And the reason is, they have footage of their own play out there for the same kinds of remarks and learn that, if they don't like people responding harshly, then they should attempt to say things as diplomatically as possible.

Personally, I think it would be good if anyone who posted comments about footage posted by other TTDaily members should in turn post footage of themselves. It would be silly to try and enforce that. But I think, if you are commenting on other people's play, it seems to make sense to give the context of where you are coming from by showing how you approach the sport.

The Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat thread is the longest and most popular thread of TTD's history. It is chock full of footage of many of the members of the forum. It is worth having that and it gives people a sense of community that is different than other kinds of threads. So, it is worthwhile for all of us to post footage.
 
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How is he "setting himself up as a coach"?

I also thought this. I have found Brian's videos fun to watch. But I have never really felt them to be him presenting himself as a coach. I could be wrong. But I never read that into them. What I get is a player who is at a decent level (2000-2300 is my best guess) who wants to share things that have helped him.

From that standpoint, I feel all the videos I have watched of Brian's are enjoyable content.
 
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The thing is, if that were the case, it would also not be okay. My experience, when people who talk a lot about the videos of others, without posting footage of themselves 2 things can happen:

1) The people reading the comments don't know the context of the comments because they have no reference for the level of the player.

2) When someone does post footage of themselves, it is usually (but not always) the case that, the way they comment on others who are posting footage has more of a sense of kindness and humility even when there is criticism. And the reason is, they have footage of their own play out there for the same kinds of remarks and learn that, if they don't like people responding harshly, then they should attempt to say things as diplomatically as possible.

Personally, I think it would be good if anyone who posted comments about footage posted by other TTDaily members should in turn post footage of themselves. I would not try to enforce that. But I think, if you are commenting on other people's play, it seems to make sense to give the context of where you are coming from by showing how you approach the sport.

The Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat thread is the longest and most popular thread of TTD's history. It is chock full of footage of many of the members of the forum. It is worth having that and it gives people a sense of community that is different than other kinds of threads. So, it is worthwhile for all of us to post footage.

Point taken Carl. In this case I think its not that BB has taken a position that his game and therefore his opinion is superior to Brian's and therefore his opinion on tt is better. But BB is saying that the science is the determining factor. However he has posted the video now I think!
For myself as far as self posting is concerned I always keep in mind my first coaches remark that I have a lot to be modest about!
And anyway I enjoy the challenge of relying on the written word to make my meaning clear.
 
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I also thought this. I have found Brian's videos fun to watch. But I have never really felt them to be him presenting himself as a coach. I could be wrong. But I never read that into them. What I get is a player who is at a decent level (2000-2300 is my best guess) who wants to share things that have helped him.

From that standpoint, I feel all the videos I have watched of Brian's are enjoyable content.


fair enough
 
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'I find this a very uncomfortable thread to write about:-
A video has been created for the purpose of demonstrating "underspin loop Technique".
But there are quite a few issues:
The shadow demo. If this had been given without the VoiceOver I would have identified it as a loop against block or topspin. If entitled "technique for looping against balls with not much backspin" the shadow demo makes sense. If viewed as a demo for looping against a heavy chop then this shadow stroke is not helpful. Lets remember that the problem that most learners have against backspin is that it is difficult to get over the net.
Andrew:- he is fed a weak backspin and after that loops against block or topspin mostly. Once or twice on wide fh he has to lift the ball. IMHO this video would have a stronger message without including the film of Andrew.

Joy:- Joyfully!! she does demonstrate lifting multi ball chops showing good footwork though its apparent that her loops do not have much net clearance or much depth. A view from the side (edge on to the bat) would have been interesting and useful to demo the the racket angle and upward weight transfer necessary to lift backspin.
If the video had only shown Joy the message would have been stronger.
Brian also did a right handed version of Joy's demo, but sadly though he was able to clear the net mostly his ball seemed to land nearer the net. Ironically, in closing Brian mentions the need to have good net clearance as one of his key tips!!.
Unfairly, I can't help recalling some years ago watching Alan Cook former International giving a demo similar to Joy's. What a difference! For a continuous five minutes the ball arced well over the net to land on the end line every time. There was quality in every ball!
In conclusion I think that if Brian had limited himself to just showing Joy, and if possible showing some side views as well things would have been better. Also it would have been better if he had commented on the obvious deficiencies in her performance. If you are a coach truth trumps nice.

In the thread BB has received brickbats for his abrasiveness, but I think his point stands up well without the need of a supporting video. BB is a relatively low level player but while his attitude gets in the way of his view being accepted, Brian otoh receives plaudits perhaps because of being nice, while his contribution falls well short of being quality coaching in spite of his having played at a reasonable level. I think this justifies the term "bogus" that bb uses- in philosophy and in coaching truth trumps nice! - Not that Brian has bad intentions, he just needs to have a greater respect for the difficulty and responsibility of coaching

I do appreciate your feedback. In terms of the shadow stroke, it's hard to show a stroke than can encompass every degree of underspin that you may encounter. The stroke I showed is supposed to be used against push, which is the most common scenario. It's also slightly exaggerated, I apologize for that, sometimes it's hard to show something without feeling the ball contact my paddle. For the video of Andrew, every time he looped he started from push, which is very common and worth showing, but I agree that having topspin rallies in there can be distracting good point! Lastly, I think the multiball that joy and I were doing demonstrates a consistent underspin loop, which was the point of this video. I also cleared the net on every loop, and I would argue that at some point, looping the ball too high can be a bad thing because it's easier for the opponent to counter. I am by no means a professional coach, but I am sharing my general ideas on how to loop underspin. I hope it's beneficial to people, but it's no substitute for in-person coaching with a professional. Thanks for the response, I do take your criticism seriously.
 
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Thanks for the content. I think your visual examples are good, but your explanations of the technique are a bit confusing to me.

For example, you say to use the butt, but how does one do that? You talk about accelerating.. but how do you accelerate the arm? I think a lot of the stuff that you say are quite detail oriented (and accurate) but misses the big picture.

I'd like to share a video of me correcting poor fh against backspin technique. Brett Clarke helped me do this by focusing on the body and how to use the hips and fold the torso which accelerates the arm. Then when you know the technique it's just down to practice and trying to optimize the movement to make it better.
Unfortunately you have to sign up to see the video, but it is free. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it if you decide to watch.
https://ttedge.com/videos/etts59-executing-table-tennis-shots-part-59-forehand-improvement

Thanks for the feedback. I've received similar criticism in the past, and I will try to explain more of those concepts in the future. It's difficult to do this with words, and would be easier to demonstrate in person. I will do my best to explain details like that though.
 
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I do appreciate your feedback. In terms of the shadow stroke, it's hard to show a stroke than can encompass every degree of underspin that you may encounter. The stroke I showed is supposed to be used against push, which is the most common scenario. It's also slightly exaggerated, I apologize for that, sometimes it's hard to show something without feeling the ball contact my paddle. For the video of Andrew, every time he looped he started from push, which is very common and worth showing, but I agree that having topspin rallies in there can be distracting good point! Lastly, I think the multiball that joy and I were doing demonstrates a consistent underspin loop, which was the point of this video. I also cleared the net on every loop, and I would argue that at some point, looping the ball too high can be a bad thing because it's easier for the opponent to counter. I am by no means a professional coach, but I am sharing my general ideas on how to loop underspin. I hope it's beneficial to people, but it's no substitute for in-person coaching with a professional. Thanks for the response, I do take your criticism seriously.

Hi Brian
thanks for the reply. I respect your attitude.
Yes looping the ball high can be dangerous, but topspin just over the net is very vulnerable to the early ball player too, giving them a lot of angle choices. When yr topspin lands on the end line it pushes the opponent back which reduces the danger from their power and narrows the angles available to them.


I must confess when I responded to the thread I was thinking mainly of defending the principal of an analytical approach to coaching which the BB dispute highlighted, so I indulged myself in a vigorous deconstruction of your post without really considering how much I knew of you and that you might not be a veteran of online discussion of the take no prisoners variety. For that I apologise, and I hope you subscribe to the idea that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger in the end.
I look forward to more of your videos in the future.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. I've received similar criticism in the past, and I will try to explain more of those concepts in the future. It's difficult to do this with words, and would be easier to demonstrate in person. I will do my best to explain details like that though.

Yeah it's not easy to break the language barrier in TT, much easier to show correct technique and get others to copy. I think this is why there are so many misunderstandings, it's not easy to describe exactly what needs to be done for every ball as it varies so much. If there is one common thing though, if we're talking about fh vs backspin is that there will always be some hip rotation and some torso fold. So my tip for anyone learning fh vs backspin would be to practice all those variations, e.g. against heavy backspin you'd fold your torso more and put more weight on your right foot and push off harder which spins the hips and unfolds the torso and then the arm just follows along. Maybe when you said use your butt, it's all the leaning over on to your one leg, activating the glutes that makes you think that you're "using" your butt.

Watch any pro player play against a chopper and it'll show this. This is what I've learnt from Brett Clarke btw, who's a world class coach.
 
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I believe it is better to know how to loop on the rise, peak and late timing of contact. Peak is optimal but there are times thr 2 other contact timing work well.

Definitely, especially with 40+ balls.
 
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Nothing really [in]correct as long as it is working.

Zeio quoted data from China on how the top players in the world contact the ball. Since this thread started with an instructional video, one question is, what is happening in the minds of someone like Ma Long when they execute that and how did they learn to do it?

1. What is going on in their minds? I'm not a pro player, but for certain, nothing about mechanics, since for them execution is automatic. They may be thinking about where they want to hit the ball.

2. They got that way by starting as very young kids, and incredible amounts of repetition, where the feedback they got was the result of the shot. After hitting millions of shots they got to where they almost never mistimed. Certainly coaching helped. But if you start young and hit enough balls, you will develop a stroke that is very natural and often optimal.

3. Remember though, getting that perfect timing is a lot easier when the ball comes right to you, but in free play the ball goes all over the place, so you have to get to where your timing is perfect even when you are having to move to get to the ball. You have to practice that, a lot!

4. Hence, multiball drills, hard ones, Falkenbergs, etc. etc. etc. That's a lot more important than worrying about timing the acceleration of your stroke.

5. If you feel like you need to make some sort of change in your mechanics, you need to videotape yourself. You have to see what you are doing because what it FEELS like you are doing in your own mind all too often is not what is ACTUALLY happening. A coach I had used to say, "their's feel, and then their's real" and he meant they aren't always the same thing.
 
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Zeio quoted data from China on how the top players in the world contact the ball. Since this thread started with an instructional video, one question is, what is happening in the minds of someone like Ma Long when they execute that and how did they learn to do it?

1. What is going on in their minds? I'm not a pro player, but for certain, nothing about mechanics, since for them execution is automatic. They may be thinking about where they want to hit the ball.

2. They got that way by starting as very young kids, and incredible amounts of repetition, where the feedback they got was the result of the shot. After hitting millions of shots they got to where they almost never mistimed. Certainly coaching helped. But if you start young and hit enough balls, you will develop a stroke that is very natural and often optimal.

3. Remember though, getting that perfect timing is a lot easier when the ball comes right to you, but in free play the ball goes all over the place, so you have to get to where your timing is perfect even when you are having to move to get to the ball. You have to practice that, a lot!

4. Hence, multiball drills, hard ones, Falkenbergs, etc. etc. etc. That's a lot more important than worrying about timing the acceleration of your stroke.

5. If you feel like you need to make some sort of change in your mechanics, you need to videotape yourself. You have to see what you are doing because what it FEELS like you are doing in your own mind all too often is not what is ACTUALLY happening. A coach I had used to say, "their's feel, and then their's real" and he meant they aren't always the same thing.

Because of this fact many shots by pros reflect 'incorrect' technique. They are using their knowledge of correct technique to provide a subconscious REFERENCE which enables successful adaptation to take place

or so my theory goes ...
 
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c’mon sober up man.
In my book bb is nothing but a big a••h•••.Having comments is OK, but in that way, it was waaay out of line.

Suggestion to the moderator, close this thread.
Talk about opinions. Proof can you provide to back up your opinion?
Is that all you have, your opinion?
You can see I called the video bogus but that is it and some how that makes me an a**h***.

The OP asked for an opinion and I called it bogus and some how that is waaay out of line.
You are very thin skinned.
Can you do anything more than make ad hominem attacks?
Can you refute anything I said to back up my opinion?
You are the one out of line. People like you don't care about the truth just their feelings.
It is you that are out of line.
Why close the thread? Will it hurt your feelings if it continues?
Actually, I have made my point and I am OK with closing the thread.
The thread will be closed and no one has refuted what said about the contact time and maximum paddle velocity.
 
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