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  1. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I can loop very well. I have posted a video of me playing c-pen and looping. It was the last video I made before the ccp-virus.
    I did delete posts from several people that seemed to simply be personal attacks. I could delete more.


    ==

    BrokenBall, I need you to post video footage of you looping HEAVY BACKSPIN.

    If you are going to make the comments you have made in this thread, you have to show that you can do what you are talking about.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-20-2021 at 06:19 AM.
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    #42
    Isn't it enough that Wang Hao ( WH ) and Ma Lin hit the ball pretty close to maximum speed like I suggest. I am sure the CNT has thought about this if they are recording when or where in the stroke they hit the ball.

    No one has or can refute this. First the is the fact that maximum or minimum speed is obtained when the acceleration is zero. Where are the mathematicians? Second Zeio posted data that shows that WH and Ma Lin hit the ball pretty close to when the ball is at maximum speed.

    There are people that don't like anyone telling them they believe in myths.
    What I can do would be a poor example of optimal play.
    Also, haven't played much lately due the CCP-virus.

  3. Der_Echte is offline
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    #43
    I have frequently made posts about Korean coaches or Korean pros explaining concepts of shots... on the topspin shots, certain loops the coach wants the player to GET A FEELING OF... or the SHOT SHOUULD HAVE A FEEL OF... Catching and hitting or Catching and Throwing...

    ... all the explain the concept and how it should feel (to get the player to do it in that manner for a certain result) even though as BB and others point out that the action isn't happening quite that way... but one can strive for that feel to get teh shot to go the way coach is explaining.

    I did 4 years in Korean amateur TT and none of the coaches go too much into physics much, just basic commonly understood stuff about spin, gravity, long/short side of table, available angles and liklihood of a certain shot landing. The physics form any coach never went beyong that stuff.

    The stuff that could be said to go beyond was explained differently... like vs a heavy underspin ball a little high, BANG into it straight forward swing open racket on the rise a little over net height finishng upwards. There was no physics explaination about why the ball has much vertical energy early in the bounce, but coach would say it is easier to swing forward off the bounce vs that ball and if your stroke and timing are right it would go in and just believe.

    That was more typical.

    Here is clip of a Korean coach explaining some concept of grab and hit that is mostly where to take ball in strike zone (do not take far in front like many players mistakenly do) Interestingly, he says to get a feeling of SCRATCHING (maybe rubbing) the ball for a BH loop. (They call a loop a drive in Korea)

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    #44
    I get it that BB wants people to present facts and evidence and use logic to make the point if someone strongly advocates a position. That is a good default mindset in life that will help you sort BS out soon enough. I get it that many people make arguements without any evidence provided or asked for and that some people feel certain things are so well understood and right that they are Divine things given to us not to be questioned.

    So an attitude of questioning things and wanting to see and consider the evidence is a good attitude in my book.

    Even if the action doesn't happen precisely the way explained by the coaches, it really isn't presented that way, but coaches are using a description of a feel to get a player to "get it"... and those are facts in its own way. Often, the better coaches will explain common mistakes and why they fail... and a lot of the nuances that contribute to the good result.

    if a player does not know how it should feel and sound, then that player may not know if they got the result right. That is a reality in Table Tennis.

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  5. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Isn't it enough that Wang Hao ( WH ) and Ma Lin hit the ball pretty close to maximum speed like I suggest. I am sure the CNT has thought about this if they are recording when or where in the stroke they hit the ball.
    The facts of physics are not why you have to post footage of yourself. That you call the video Bogus simply because of a few words, not considering the video as a whole is why you have to post footage.

    Baal's explanation of how the idea of accelerating at contact is a mental construct that gets people to accelerate before contact seems to make sense of both the physics facts and the language often used in TT directions.

    And the fact that you are talking big about looping means, YOU HAVE TO SHOW FOOTAGE OF YOURSELF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    The "accelerate on contact" thing is a purely mental construct the player uses to increase racket speed. The effect of trying to accelerate on contact is to accelerate somewhat before contact, while still managing to actually make good contact. It is a mental approach that may help some people.

    There are all sorts of mental tricks athletes use to get a desired result that don't exactly correspond to what is really happening. Good coaches know all sorts of ways to convey an effective technique. They may say "it's sort of like....", or "think of it like..."

    This is sports, not physics. There is psychology, motor learning, and all the other things about PEOPLE actually playing a sport. People aren't robots.

    So bringing physics into it is, as is almost always the case in these threads, utterly pointless.
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    #46
    I watched the video and think that it can be useful for a lot of players. There are 10,000,000 ways to hit the ball and what is optimal for you might not be the optimal motion predicted by physics or math. Even if your motion is optimized using physics, how much better is it and can you consistently do the motion? That is an important question.

    I think it would be cool to have another post where people do discuss theoretical issues:

    1) What happens when you accelerate during contact as opposed to having a constant speed?
    2) What happens when your motion is concave up vs concave down?
    3) What happens if you close the racket during contact as opposed to opening it?
    4) If you want to loop kill the ball as fast as possible, what should the angle of the racket be and the direction of motion given the direction of the ball?
    5) How can you impart more spin on the ball on a push and keep it short?

    I have asked these sorts of questions to Olympians, World Champions, National Team Coaches and random people walking down the street. You get all kinds of different opinions and answers.

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    #47
    If I am in Austin, we gotta get a few things on film.

    - Der_Echte ripping off Brian's jersey, then providing him an even better jersey to wear with his name or Trouble Makers on it.

    - Der_Echte becoming player #5 to be able to hit FH to FH loops with Andrew

    - Der_Echte causing trouble

    - Members of ATTC causing Der_Echte trouble

    - Some tasty food or "water" and the round robin to determine who pays how much of the bill for the stuff

    -
    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-20-2021 at 10:30 AM.
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    #48
    Thanks for the content. I think your visual examples are good, but your explanations of the technique are a bit confusing to me.

    For example, you say to use the butt, but how does one do that? You talk about accelerating.. but how do you accelerate the arm? I think a lot of the stuff that you say are quite detail oriented (and accurate) but misses the big picture.

    I'd like to share a video of me correcting poor fh against backspin technique. Brett Clarke helped me do this by focusing on the body and how to use the hips and fold the torso which accelerates the arm. Then when you know the technique it's just down to practice and trying to optimize the movement to make it better.
    Unfortunately you have to sign up to see the video, but it is free. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it if you decide to watch.
    https://ttedge.com/videos/etts59-exe...nd-improvement

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    #49
    Next Level works a lot with that outfit and they really talk a LOT about what goes into whip mechanics and it is great stuff.

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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Players always say things that, more often than not, do not match what actually takes place but what's more important is to figure out what they really mean rather than "I have the best loops!"

    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...l=1#post259179
    I wish I could see that “late ascent” concept earlier. I had to figure out myself. Coaches always tell me to take the ball at the peak and I was always late. Then I realised that time is needed between when I started forward swing and when I met the ball. It improved my timing drastically because I got much more aware of my swing speed & especially relative to the existing pace in the ball. (If I am to meet the ball at the same peak, when I should start my forward swing depends on the speed I want)

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    Last edited by Tango K; 01-20-2021 at 12:32 PM.

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    #51
    I believe it is better to know how to loop on the rise, peak and late timing of contact. Peak is optimal but there are times thr 2 other contact timing work well.

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    #52
    'I find this a very uncomfortable thread to write about:-
    A video has been created for the purpose of demonstrating "underspin loop Technique".
    But there are quite a few issues:
    The shadow demo. If this had been given without the VoiceOver I would have identified it as a loop against block or topspin. If entitled "technique for looping against balls with not much backspin" the shadow demo makes sense. If viewed as a demo for looping against a heavy chop then this shadow stroke is not helpful. Lets remember that the problem that most learners have against backspin is that it is difficult to get over the net.
    Andrew:- he is fed a weak backspin and after that loops against block or topspin mostly. Once or twice on wide fh he has to lift the ball. IMHO this video would have a stronger message without including the film of Andrew.

    Joy:- Joyfully!! she does demonstrate lifting multi ball chops showing good footwork though its apparent that her loops do not have much net clearance or much depth. A view from the side (edge on to the bat) would have been interesting and useful to demo the the racket angle and upward weight transfer necessary to lift backspin.
    If the video had only shown Joy the message would have been stronger.
    Brian also did a right handed version of Joy's demo, but sadly though he was able to clear the net mostly his ball seemed to land nearer the net. Ironically, in closing Brian mentions the need to have good net clearance as one of his key tips!!.
    Unfairly, I can't help recalling some years ago watching Alan Cook former International giving a demo similar to Joy's. What a difference! For a continuous five minutes the ball arced well over the net to land on the end line every time. There was quality in every ball!
    In conclusion I think that if Brian had limited himself to just showing Joy, and if possible showing some side views as well things would have been better. Also it would have been better if he had commented on the obvious deficiencies in her performance. If you are a coach truth trumps nice.

    In the thread BB has received brickbats for his abrasiveness, but I think his point stands up well without the need of a supporting video. BB is a relatively low level player but while his attitude gets in the way of his view being accepted, Brian otoh receives plaudits perhaps because of being nice, while his contribution falls well short of being quality coaching in spite of his having played at a reasonable level. I think this justifies the term "bogus" that bb uses- in philosophy and in coaching truth trumps nice! - Not that Brian has bad intentions, he just needs to have a greater respect for the difficulty and responsibility of coaching
    Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 01-20-2021 at 01:43 PM.
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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Zhao
    Thanks for the input. I do have a different opinion on the part about ignoring contact point. The contact is very critical, and all my coaches throughout my life who are world class players have emphasized that point. One of the essentials of TT is explosive acceleration, which many CNT coaches are always talking about. That explosiveness must be applied at the moment of contact to generate power. Also, my coaches have always emphasized "eating the ball" which which means to really grab it. If your acceleration isn't timed near the contact point, you won't be grabbing the ball as effectively.

    I do appreciate the input, and I hope my explanation makes some sense. Much of TT is hard to put into words...
    This too I realised myself, for the lack of clean explanation. Coaches just said snap only when you’re about to touch the ball, after body swing, saying it concentrates more power. Hard to understand. And It was impossible for me to convey to my training partners. I love that concept of “secondary acceleration”. If you focus on feeling, then it turns out easy to get. The incoming balls are never the same, especially when they are very spinny. Regardless of how much you participated the bounce, the mm of touch point difference can only be determined when it is mm away from your swing (which you’ve been half way in with the body). Without making clear that the arm snap is “secondary” (or, “delayed”), it’s very hard to spin the ball a lot.

    Hope this helps people who overthink the mechanics too much. Tbh, all this mechanics came to me after I let the feel work itself out. That’s why I gotta agree with people like yogi_bear and Brian. Physics has its space but feel gotta come first as it’s how humans learn. “Mechanics” is kinda both.

    Another thing I want to emphasize is that “physics” is not just force between bat and ball alone. Body biomechanics is also physics. So the topic is way too deep. Let alone dealing with “balls are never the same” - processing and reacting to the incoming balls in steps in real time is different from knowing in advance where exactly the ball will be, in mm, or nm, when it was still 1 table length away.

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    I believe it is better to know how to loop on the rise, peak and late timing of contact. Peak is optimal but there are times thr 2 other contact timing work well.
    Yes of course we do have to learn looping at different timings. I was talking about the very basic, how to learn where exactly the “peak” is, and how to get it fastest. Sorry I wasn’t clear.

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    #55
    Agree with some guy above. Biomechanics, physics and technique is not so important if the stroke is functional for your game and give you a somewhat good results. Nothing really correct as long as it is working.

    Probably hard to discuss in text as well.

    But I do find it is good as a tabletennis coach to try to learn other subjects like biomechanics, physical training, psychology, how to eat and how to learn others. Feel like many coaches have very limited education and knowledge only toward tabletennis. Tabletennis is just a part of being a good coach.

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  16. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy
    'I find this a very uncomfortable thread to write about:-
    A video has been created for the purpose of demonstrating "underspin loop Technique".
    But there are quite a few issues:
    The shadow demo. If this had been given without the VoiceOver I would have identified it as a loop against block or topspin. If entitled "technique for looping against balls with not much backspin" the shadow demo makes sense. If viewed as a demo for looping against a heavy chop then this shadow stroke is not helpful. Lets remember that the problem that most learners have against backspin is that it is difficult to get over the net.
    Andrew:- he is fed a weak backspin and after that loops against block or topspin mostly. Once or twice on wide fh he has to lift the ball. IMHO this video would have a stronger message without including the film of Andrew.

    Joy:- Joyfully!! she does demonstrate lifting multi ball chops showing good footwork though its apparent that her loops do not have much net clearance or much depth. A view from the side (edge on to the bat) would have been interesting and useful to demo the the racket angle and upward weight transfer necessary to lift backspin.
    If the video had only shown Joy the message would have been stronger.
    Brian also did a right handed version of Joy's demo, but sadly though he was able to clear the net mostly his ball seemed to land nearer the net. Ironically, in closing Brian mentions the need to have good net clearance as one of his key tips!!.
    Unfairly, I can't help recalling some years ago watching Alan Cook former International giving a demo similar to Joy's. What a difference! For a continuous five minutes the ball arced well over the net to land on the end line every time. There was quality in every ball!
    In conclusion I think that if Brian had limited himself to just showing Joy, and if possible showing some side views as well things would have been better. Also it would have been better if he had commented on the obvious deficiencies in her performance. If you are a coach truth trumps nice.

    In the thread BB has received brickbats for his abrasiveness, but I think his point stands up well without the need of a supporting video. BB is a relatively low level player but while his attitude gets in the way of his view being accepted, Brian otoh receives plaudits perhaps because of being nice, while his contribution falls well short of being quality coaching in spite of his having played at a reasonable level. I think this justifies the term "bogus" that bb uses- in philosophy and in coaching truth trumps nice! - Not that Brian has bad intentions, he just needs to have a greater respect for the difficulty and responsibility of coaching
    I think this is mostly on point. I just think that BrokenBall does have a tendency to harass and attack when the substance of the physics is pretty accurate but he is not considering that he is talking to humans. It is interesting how frequently he is correct about the important technical details and still gets people really upset with him.

    So, from the standpoint of how frequently BB attacks other people for not quite knowing the science, and acts as if he can do what he is talking about at a high level, then, people on the forum should see the quality of the loops of the player who is doing the harassing.

    BTW: I think Baal gave a nice perspective on how, the thought, idea or intention of accelerating on contact actually helps you get the racket up to a higher top speed on contact. It think that was excellent information containing the science and adding the human element of how we get ourselves to do the right thing even if it is by thinking something that is not technically accurate. And I think Zeio did a great job of presenting the facts as tested on some of the best players of the previous generation. So, we can understand how top speed at contact is ideal, and hopefully people can sort out why, thinking that you want to accelerate on contact would help even though, that is not actually what you are doing.

    BTW2: I think I have seen the footage BB talked about. My memory is, in comparison to several years ago, BB has made leaps and bounds in how much better he is now than how he played in footage prior to the most recent footage. So, I don't think it should be an issue for him to show footage of him looping decently heavy backspin. I know he can do it at a decent enough level.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-20-2021 at 02:37 PM.
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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Isn't it enough that Wang Hao ( WH ) and Ma Lin hit the ball pretty close to maximum speed like I suggest. I am sure the CNT has thought about this if they are recording when or where in the stroke they hit the ball.

    No one has or can refute this. First the is the fact that maximum or minimum speed is obtained when the acceleration is zero. Where are the mathematicians? Second Zeio posted data that shows that WH and Ma Lin hit the ball pretty close to when the ball is at maximum speed.

    There are people that don't like anyone telling them they believe in myths.
    What I can do would be a poor example of optimal play.
    Also, haven't played much lately due the CCP-virus.
    Just post the footage from before CoVID. It is good enough. You looked pretty good in that footage.
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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    I think you should post that video you mentioned again on this thread so we can all see your, er technique. I think it would put all your comments in a proper context.
    I have seen the video in question. I guess that those lobbying for BB to show it have a feeling that BB's abrasive attack mode posting shows a certain lack of humility deserving of punishment. However I take the view that Brian is the one who is truly lacking in humility in setting himself up as a coach, when the substance of his remarks fall well short of BB.
    Brian is superior in cool factor and politeness and playing skill but inferior in coaching ability
    BB is superior in tt know how, but inferior in communication
    So imho BB was correct to refer to the Henzell example

    Just my opinion !
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    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy
    I have seen the video in question. I guess that those lobbying for BB to show it have a feeling that BB's abrasive attack mode posting shows a certain lack of humility deserving of punishment. However I take the view that Brian is the one who is truly lacking in humility in setting himself up as a coach, when the substance of his remarks fall well short of BB.
    Brian is superior in cool factor and politeness and playing skill but inferior in coaching ability
    BB is superior in tt know how, but inferior in communication
    So imho BB was correct to refer to the Henzell example

    Just my opinion !
    Bro what are you even on? In what world does Brian owe you anything? There is nothing but entitlement in your two posts. Brian is creating FREE CONTENT. This is that proverbial "don't watch if you don't like it" situation. Send him some cash for coaching and maybe he will tailor it to your very specific requirements.

    Your attitude and BB's are disgusting. BB's level of physics are great, doesn't make him a better coach than Brian. At least with Brian worst case, you can visually watch what you should be doing and mimic it. With BB's posts you have to do scientific research. Which is truly more effective? The truth of the matter is that none of the pro's have physics degrees, yet they are the best in the world. So why do I need to learn molecular science to loop underspin? Do you think FZD is a physicist? Yet Henzell couldn't touch his game with a ten foot pole...

    Carl, why are you letting BB spout all the anti-China virus stuff in every one of his posts? There is a disgusting display of attitudes in this thread...The entitlement for free content is absurd.

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Cktenders
    Bro what are you even on? In what world does Brian owe you anything? There is nothing but entitlement in your two posts. Brian is creating FREE CONTENT. This is that proverbial "don't watch if you don't like it" situation. Send him some cash for coaching and maybe he will tailor it to your very specific requirements.

    Your attitude and BB's are disgusting. BB's level of physics are great, doesn't make him a better coach than Brian. At least with Brian worst case, you can visually watch what you should be doing and mimic it. With BB's posts you have to do scientific research. Which is truly more effective? The truth of the matter is that none of the pro's have physics degrees, yet they are the best in the world. So why do I need to learn molecular science to loop underspin? Do you think FZD is a physicist? Yet Henzell couldn't touch his game with a ten foot pole...

    Carl, why are you letting BB spout all the anti-China virus stuff in every one of his posts? There is a disgusting display of attitudes in this thread...The entitlement for free content is absurd.
    Hi Cktenders
    I have been coaching for some 50+ years and a tournament and league player all my life with some success.
    I applaud Brian's attempt at a coaching video and I hope that my comments will help him. Subservient comments would not help him. Coaching is very important to me and I will always support it when done well, but will give my honest opinion.
    Entitlement:- Brian is entitled to a fair assessment, but when he makes mistakes and asks for comments he should want the truth.
    BB is an irritating guy but that doesn't make the people he annoys automatically right

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