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  1. Der_Echte is offline
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    #81
    IN... before Carl triggers the trap door on his tall pile of highly tuned H3 NEO National rubbers with his honey trap bait lady having to frequently stoop down to pick up 968 blades to put in hte middle of the pile... then down go the Goonies into Carl's basement septic tank prison dungeon for a one week stay and he closes the thread... maybe.

    IN before another TTD memebr becomes player #5 to do FH to FH loops with Andrew. (I think Brian can do that already even if not counted.)

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-20-2021 at 10:57 PM.
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  2. Lazer is offline
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    #82
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Talk about opinions. Proof can you provide to back up your opinion?
    Is that all you have, your opinion?
    You can see I called the video bogus but that is it and some how that makes me an a**h***.

    The OP asked for an opinion and I called it bogus and some how that is waaay out of line.
    You are very thin skinned.
    Can you do anything more than make ad hominem attacks?
    Can you refute anything I said to back up my opinion?
    You are the one out of line. People like you don't care about the truth just their feelings.
    It is you that are out of line.
    Why close the thread? Will it hurt your feelings if it continues?
    Actually, I have made my point and I am OK with closing the thread.
    The thread will be closed and no one has refuted what said about the contact time and maximum paddle velocity.
    Just look at Your first few posts, there You set the tone...

    And BTW. Almost all posts are opinions including Yours...

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    Last edited by Lazer; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:47 AM.

  3. zeio is offline
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    #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    Zeio quoted data from China on how the top players in the world contact the ball. Since this thread started with an instructional video, one question is, what is happening in the minds of someone like Ma Long when they execute that and how did they learn to do it?

    1. What is going on in their minds? I'm not a pro player, but for certain, nothing about mechanics, since for them execution is automatic. They may be thinking about where they want to hit the ball.
    ...
    They learn it wrong in terms of physics(see next passage). But because it's not physiologically possible, they are bound to do it right in terms of physics. As you mentioned earlier, there are many "mental constructs" that players use to internalize the physics model.

    There's a series of infomercial/instructional clips demonstrated by WH and ML that was released in July, 2012. In the one on FH loop against half-long light backspin, @0:55, "the key to the trajectory: the swing has to go upward and then forward. You can't just go upward. And upon ball contact, the sensation of 'biting' the ball, loop forward..."

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    Last edited by zeio; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:17 AM.
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  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #84
    Yep. Often, in motor learning, the mental constructs we make about how we learn or perform an action and the actual technical details behind what we do are quite frequently not the same.

    Some of this is because of how our minds work. We think in stories, in metaphors. Most people don't think in equations. For most people a story is easier to make meaning out of than a series of numbers.

    And it is interesting how, the idea of trying to accelerate "on contact" could get us to get the racket close to its top speed by the time we make contact with the ball and still allow us to make clean contact while tracking and intercepting the ball and only touching a very small area on the edge of the ball while making tangential contact with the racket moving parallel to the edge of the ball.

    When you cannot do the technique, any information that helps you go from not being able to loop backspin, to being able to loop backspin is useful. When you can loop backspin well, you don't think about the technique anymore and focus on where you are going to hit the ball, the arc you want on the ball, the pace you want the shot to have.

    I remember, a long time ago, someone saying, "I don't know, I just think about the arc I want on the ball. I have an idea of the arc of the shot before I hit it. And that is usually what happens." At some point, that is how you loop backspin.

    It does not change the physics. But there is no reason for someone to say that a whole video is invalid or some other word, simply because the directions are not actually in line with the physics.

    There is nothing wrong with point out that the physics and the metaphor are not in line with each other. But to attack someone for posting footage is not such a great thing. And then to persist in asking the person to answer questions that are not really relevant to the video posted is a bit off base.

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  5. Tinykin is offline
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    #85

    One of your best posts, Carl

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Yep. Often, in motor learning, the mental constructs we make about how we learn or perform an action and the actual technical details behind what we do are quite frequently not the same.

    Some of this is because of how our minds work. We think in stories, in metaphors. Most people don't think in equations. For most people a story is easier to make meaning out of than a series of numbers.

    And it is interesting how, the idea of trying to accelerate "on contact" could get us to get the racket close to its top speed by the time we make contact with the ball and still allow us to make clean contact while tracking and intercepting the ball and only touching a very small area on the edge of the ball while making tangential contact with the racket moving parallel to the edge of the ball.

    When you cannot do the technique, any information that helps you go from not being able to loop backspin, to being able to loop backspin is useful. When you can loop backspin well, you don't think about the technique anymore and focus on where you are going to hit the ball, the arc you want on the ball, the pace you want the shot to have.

    I remember, a long time ago, someone saying, "I don't know, I just think about the arc I want on the ball. I have an idea of the arc of the shot before I hit it. And that is usually what happens." At some point, that is how you loop backspin.

    It does not change the physics. But there is no reason for someone to say that a whole video is invalid or some other word, simply because the directions are not actually in line with the physics.

    There is nothing wrong with point out that the physics and the metaphor are not in line with each other. But to attack someone for posting footage is not such a great thing. And then to persist in asking the person to answer questions that are not really relevant to the video posted is a bit off base.
    Spoken with the assurance of a good coroner....sort of

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  6. Baal is offline
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    #86
    A classic book on this from a long time ago is the Inner Game of Tennis. It discussed a lot about why trying to think about your mechanics as a whole bunch of little steps will mess you up.

    Will "thinking" about accelerating just before contact help you? Maybe, if your technical problem is that you are not generating enough racket speed. And then only for awhile as you try to correct this particular problem.

    Anyway, it was pretty weird that the whole physics think crept into this thread. And about 99% of the time it derails threads over nothing that is particularly relevant ot the subject at hand.

    After all, this was based on maybe one sentence in a 10 minute video.

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    Last edited by Baal; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:37 PM.

  7. latej is offline
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    #87
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    They learn it wrong in terms of physics(see next passage). But because it's not physiologically possible, they do it right in terms of physics. As you mentioned earlier, there are many "mental constructs" that players use to internalize the physics model.

    There's a series of infomercial/instructional clips demonstrated by WH and ML released in July, 2012. In the one on the FH loop against half-long light backspin, @0:55, "the key to the trajectory: the swing has to go upward and then forward, you can't just go upward. And upon ball contact, the sensation of 'biting' the ball, loop forward..."
    I get your point about "mental constructs", cheating one's mind, in order to learn something. But these "mental constructs" are not always only useful, they can also bring more confusion. If you say to young player, on contact, bite the ball, he will try hard to bite the ball. Similarly if you say, accelerate on contact (let's keep aside that it is physical nonsense), he will try hard, will focus on the contact, will perhaps try to move the arm fast, and these things might end up being more important for him, then they should be. It seems like, we fight over relative importance of things (if we forget the other issues of this thread). For me, what the body does is much more important than what I feel on contact. As Richie put it in his post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    If there is one common thing though, if we're talking about fh vs backspin is that there will always be some hip rotation and some torso fold. So my tip for anyone learning fh vs backspin would be to practice all those variations, e.g. against heavy backspin you'd fold your torso more and put more weight on your right foot and push off harder which spins the hips and unfolds the torso and then the arm just follows along.
    Even though Brian is likely better player, I thought from observing him, that focusing less on contact and more on body might benefit him. Small shift in importance if you wish. I failed to communicate it. And then other things like physical terms got in the way.

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    #88
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    I get your point about "mental constructs", cheating one's mind, in order to learn something. But these "mental constructs" are not always only useful, they can also bring more confusion. If you say to young player, on contact, bite the ball, he will try hard to bite the ball. Similarly if you say, accelerate on contact (let's keep aside that it is physical nonsense), he will try hard, will focus on the contact, will perhaps try to move the arm fast, and these things might end up being more important for him, then they should be. It seems like, we fight over relative importance of things (if we forget the other issues of this thread). For me, what the body does is much more important than what I feel on contact. As Richie put it in his post.



    Even though Brian is likely better player, I thought from observing him, that focusing less on contact and more on body might benefit him. Small shift in importance if you wish. I failed to communicate it. And then other things like physical terms got in the way.
    Feel and body movement are inseparable components in producing a correct and spinny loop. Without feel of the ball, your loops will not be as spinny since it involves how you contact the ball. You cannot say 1 is more important than the other because these 2 composes a good stroke.

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  9. Baal is offline
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    #89
    Yes, but ive seen people obsess over their wrist and arms and forget about their feet and torso -- and pretty much everything else.

    Actually, I think a lot of people should concentrate more on being relaxed during the stroke (in upper body). People trying to make the stroke "perfect" are often stiff as a board. Their faces are grimacing, grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! Another value of muktiball drills where you have to move. At a point you have to relax.

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    Last edited by Baal; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:49 AM.

  10. Der_Echte is offline
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    #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    Yes, but ive seen people obsess over their wrist and arms and forget about their feet and torso -- and pretty much everything else.

    Actually, I think a lot of people should concentrate more on being relaxed during the stroke (in upper body). People trying to make the stroke "perfect" are often stiff as a board. Their faces are grimacing, grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! Another value of muktiball drills where you have to move. At a point you have to relax.
    One of the very things I must reveal to adult players about their looping is that they are tight... often in hte shoulder... that stops any of the nice kinetic energy they built up and they try to start it again and power it with back of shoulder. Some guys just got a primal instinct when trying to kill something to use back of shoulder.

    Making that power, amplifying it and transferring it SHOULD look easy... it really is if one knows how to relax and engage the right parts of the chain in the right sequence at the right times. Over-thinking about it sure does ruin it all. I get it, on level, you have to know what is going on, but consciously thinking too much in a stroke or rally is really detrimental.

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  11. brokenball is offline
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    #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Just look at Your first few posts, there You set the tone...

    And BTW. Almost all posts are opinions including Yours...
    The only opinion I had was when I used the word bogus.
    I could have said it was not right. Would that be better? Did that set the tone or was it my reply to the ad hominem attacks?

    However, what I said to back up my claim is not opinion. You haven't refuted anything I said. Zeio's data backed me up. If you don't know how to compute when the maximum or minimum speed occurs, that is your problem.

    One thing Yogi and I agree on is that brushing yields more spin. That is because the contact is more tangential to the center of the ball rather than through the center of the ball. Zeio once called this eccentric contact, i like that word eccentric.
    Brushing does not result in the ball penetrating as far into the rubber. You can tell when you are brushing correctly because the sound much different. It is more muted.

    I do agree that almost all posts are opinions. This is evident from the difference in opinions one regularly sees on TT forums about which rubber, is faster, spinnier, etc. All these attributes could be measured if one wanted to. Then there would be no dispute.

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    #92
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    Feel and body movement are inseparable components in producing a correct and spinny loop. Without feel of the ball, your loops will not be as spinny since it involves how you contact the ball. You cannot say 1 is more important than the other because these 2 composes a good stroke.
    Baal established many years ago on mytt that it takes many milliseconds for you to feel the ball and the ball is long gone by the time you do.

    Perhaps you should say that a good stroke will feel "right".

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  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #93
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    The only opinion I had was when I used the word bogus.
    I could have said it was not right. Would that be better? Did that set the tone or was it my reply to the ad hominem attacks?
    Here:

    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    The video is bogus. This is how TT myths are perpetuated.
    Right off the bat video loses all credibility when he says accelerate at contact and not before.
    How about instead, having started with something like: "I feel it is unfortunate that you decided to describe the technique for looping with the idea that you want to accelerate on contact when actually, what would provide the best spin is to achieve maximum racket speed at the point of contact....."

    Whereas, how you started was argumentative and pretty insulting whether you meant it that way or not and whether you realize it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    What is wrong with you guys? By the time you feel anything the ball is long gone.
    Define grabbing? What does grabbing have to do with acceleration? You are side stepping the argument.
    Define the contact as being too harsh. These are wishy washy meaningless words. Provide facts.
    And, in your second post, you define what is going on as an argument. But you are where the argument started. There did not need to be any argument.

    What was the purpose of going so far out of your way to make your comments so personal and attacking: "What is wrong with you guys?" You pitted yourself against an imaginary group (you guys) who you are arguing against and you seem intent on "defeating" Them in your "argument".

    There were personal attacks sent your way as well. And I deleted a bunch of posts so I know there were and that is wrong too. But, it is clear that, attacks and the contentiousness started with the guy who was talking about busting myths. It is not the facts that get people to respond so negatively to you, BB.

    So, it is worth looking at how you relate to others and how they respond as a result. The physics, the science was behind what your actual point was. But what others actually took issue with about you BB, was not the science, but the way the things you said came out in such a contentious manner. And that caused others to respond back in a negative and contentions way.

    Someone who can sift through the attitude and see the worthwhile content will get that you have some things that are valuable to add to the discussion. But you have to start trying to relate without the argumentativeness and the contentiousness.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:39 AM.
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  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    A classic book on this from a long time ago is the Inner Game of Tennis. It discussed a lot about why trying to think about your mechanics as a whole bunch of little steps will mess you up.
    In a movement theory class decades ago, there was this student who kept on really asking the same question over and over again, and the teacher was sort of annoyed with it.

    The question was basically: "what muscles do you engage to do this ______(fill in the blank) movement." The teacher kept answering with things about the movement pattern and the quality of the movement and about how, in any movement you use a lot of muscles and you don't want to try and think about that because it will mess up the movement quality if you are trying to think about things like that.

    Finally, after something like the 10th time a question about which muscles was asked, the teacher got frustrated and said:

    "Do you see this movement?" And he stood up from his chair and sat back down. Then he did the movement 2 more times for emphasis. "You use approximately 180 muscles to do that movement. The contractions are a complex balance of agonists and antagonists, synchronized and timed in a complex sequence. If we had to think about what muscles to contract, we would never be able to walk down the street."

    The details that get you to be able to perform the action, at some point they have to be dropped and then you just do the movement while thinking of more important things like the arc of the ball for the shot. And when children are developing and learning movement patterns they definitely are not thinking in terms of technical specifics.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:54 AM.
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  15. Lula is offline
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    #95
    It is difficult to learn new things. Have learned through experience that me being to enthusiastic and motivated as a coach probably makes the players develop less good. It is easy that you want to help and give to many tips and many ways how to get there. Too difficult to think of all of this!

    So now I hold myself back. I try to focus on one thing first and try one way to make it better.

    Too much information is not always good.

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    #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    It is difficult to learn new things. Have learned through experience that me being to enthusiastic and motivated as a coach probably makes the players develop less good. It is easy that you want to help and give to many tips and many ways how to get there. Too difficult to think of all of this!

    So now I hold myself back. I try to focus on one thing first and try one way to make it better.

    Too much information is not always good.
    Well put Lula, and in the end it's all about opinions. What works for You does not necessarily work for me.

    Cheers
    L-zr

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    #97
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    Feel and body movement are inseparable components in producing a correct and spinny loop. Without feel of the ball, your loops will not be as spinny since it involves how you contact the ball. You cannot say 1 is more important than the other because these 2 composes a good stroke.
    I beg to differ. I've been a player with atrocious technique. But I've always thought I've had quite good feeling for the ball.

    https://youtu.be/NxhDTgY1bLw?t=37

    Watch this loop at 0.37. Clearly I managed to get some spin on the ball. But look at my legs and body, the shot was all arm and shoulder. This was 4ish years ago when I had never done a single drill and never knew what proper technique even was. I just played league matches.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrCi...ature=youtu.be

    Now watch this video and you can see that my hips and body are more in sync with my arm.

    With good technique, it's much easier to be consistent, to develop power and to produce spin, recovery is faster as the weak arm and shoulder muscles aren't constantly being stressed. The video I linked to ttedge in my first post shows this more clearly and Brett explains it better than me.

    Like Baal said about obsessing over wrist and arms and forgetting about the body, I've been there and done that. I would obsess over small details in grip that would only ruin my stroke even more.

    Perhaps improving the details can be helpful, but I believe that that might only be the case once one knows how to use the body correctly. It's more about getting an intuition (and maybe that's what you mean by feeling) of what to do with the body and how to contact the ball. Reaching that point and being able to do it automatically is what improvement is to me.

    Then you have to be able to do it when the ball is random with variations of spin etc, getting to feel all the variations leads to more improvement.

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    #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    It is difficult to learn new things. Have learned through experience that me being to enthusiastic and motivated as a coach probably makes the players develop less good. It is easy that you want to help and give to many tips and many ways how to get there. Too difficult to think of all of this!

    So now I hold myself back. I try to focus on one thing first and try one way to make it better.

    Too much information is not always good.
    Completely agree. This is why I have been a big fan of Brett Clarkes approach, which is extremely simple and I have video evidence from his approach that I've improved.

    It's especially difficulty when you've become good at bad technique. Many older players are actually very good at their awkward styles and using their arms and hands in all kind of weird ways. In addition, their body's might not be as fit or fast as someone younger. So if you'd want to modify their technique they might end up as worse players for a while. Before I changed technique I'm certain I was at the start better at just lifting half long balls using my arm and shoulder. Later when I started playing against decent choppers I had absolutely no chance and my teammates would tell me my technique was all wrong but didn't know how to help me, they said something like "you need to go forwards into the ball".

    Well how does one go forward into the ball? If there has been no rotation backwards, then it's difficult to go forward into the ball.

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    #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    I beg to differ. I've been a player with atrocious technique. But I've always thought I've had quite good feeling for the ball.

    https://youtu.be/NxhDTgY1bLw?t=37
    You better watch out, Your (?) girlfriend is looking bored

    Cheers
    L-zr

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    #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    You better watch out, Your (?) girlfriend is looking bored

    Cheers
    L-zr
    That's my teammates mother

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