How to measure blade speed?

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@brokenball: don’t get me wrong. Everything you write might be fine and right, but i guess the vast majority of the forum members neither do have the equipment to measure those things you’re talking about nor are they scientists and do understand what you’re talking about (nor do they care about such a detail knowledge...)

Most are just confused by the different speed Levels the manufacturers give and want to have an objective way to see which blade is faster than the other. For this purpose the frequency is a more than good indicator and easy to use and understand.
 
Just a brief explanation to those who are not familiar with the frequency reading:

Every object vibrates when subjected to an external excitation, a table tennis racket is no different. Like Zeio pointed out, this excitation produces several modes of vibration, each with its own deformed shape. In a TT blade the two modes that matter the most are the 1st (flexural mode – first pic) and the 6th (membrane mode – second pic).

View attachment 22910

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The first mode (usually in the hundreds Hz) is directly related to the stiffness, and would provide much more information, but o measure it specialized equipment is required. The 6th mode is the central deflection, so it's also connected to the hardness of the blade. It is also related to the pitch we hear when we bounce a ball on the blade, so it is easy to measure. This can be done by using a spectrum analyzer app on your phone. But how does this relate to TT blades? Well, a stiffer material will vibrate at a higher frequency, and generally speaking, stiffness is related to speed. So, higher Hz -> More stiffness -> More speed. However, this is just a general assumption because many other variables play a part in the speed of a blade like hardness (of the whole composition, not just the top ply) and the nature of the wood itself. This method is merely a nice reference point when comparing blades with a similar structure, in those cases it's true that the blade with the higher frequency (stiffness) will be faster.

I don't even like the word speed in this context, a TT blade is inanimate object and doesn't input energy on his own, it's just a rebound platform for the ball. The rebound it produces can be different depending on the impact speed and the composition of the blade itself. Some blades will produce a fast rebound on low impact shots, but lose power on high impact shots, and vice-versa. So, the "speed" of a blade would be more like a curve rather than a fixed number that most manufactures randomly put out.

I see that now your approach to the matter and your conclusions are much closer to mine.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...950-Numerical-Analysis-of-table-tennis-blades
 
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Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Sometimes you guys make me want to scream something not nice.
I have seen this frequency BS go on long enough. Frequency does have something to do with it but there is more.

Scream all you want, I'm not gonna argue with you.

I don't know about you, but I've built and tested hundreds of blades so I know what I'm saying is true. Frequency is an indicator of the blade speed when comparing similar compositions. Simple as that. However flawed it may be, it's still the simplest method we have to make any kind of numerical comparison between blades. If you want more than that, go do the tests yourself and come back with some nice simple charts for us dumb folks to see, because if you keep throwing us those big fancy equations and names, our little brains won't grasp the concept.
 
It isn't perfect but think of archery bows and other ancient weapons of war. It depends on the wood.

We are only discussing the level of lossiness the elastic behaviours of these materials are, they are still bad elastic materials, this is why modern composites vastly outperform wooden bows.

Bows are not mechanically primarily worried about energy efficiency, they are worried far more about just how much energy can be stored elastically in it's deformed state than the actual efficiency of energy in vs energy out. This is similar mechanically to a springboard. You can put in much more energy into drawing a bow or depressing a springboard, than you will get out from loosed arrow, or springboarded person.

You mean absorbing less energy. Now there is less to loose.

No I mean it deforms less. It does also end up absorbing less energy, but primarily this happens by the blade acting... less in the entire interaction.

Between all the components of the collision that deform elastically: the ball, the rubber and the blade; the blade is by far the lossiest component when it comes to elastic restitution, becase again, wood is comparitively not a good elastic material. This is why balls bounce better off a steel plate, or hard floor than a blade.

This is why less deformation in the blade is good. Because we want the least amount of interaction from the blade itself. Given the game legality constraints of blade construction, the ideally 'fast' blade approaches the perfectly rigid object (because the rules of blade construction de facto limit it to be a less elastically efficient component than either the ball or the rubber).

A stiffer blade that deforms less, wastes less energy deforming and restituting. Pushing more of the deformation that must inevitably occur with the collision into the rubber and ball, which are both less lossy when deforming and restituting. This is also why common experience also tells us that blades with carbon are stiffer, and therefore also faster. It is possible that the carbon is also a less lossy elastic material, but given that your blade cannot be all ALC, the end result of your blade is still that it is lossier than either the ball or the rubber/sponge.


The point is that the spring board is "tuned" to the divers impact. Why aren't there any 5000 Hz blades?

Again, the springboard acts primarily as an energy storage device. The springboard has better elastic properties than a human body. It deforms more because we want more of the elastic behaviour to occur in the springboard than in the human leg. If you just jump onto an undeformed board once, you would not get any more height than just jumping off a rigid surface of your own power to begin with, otherwise you would have created a perpetual motion machine, as you'd be extracting energy from a passive mechanism.

The point of a springboard is to store energy of multiple collision interactions in it's elastic defomation, and then releasing that energy into a final single impact (even if that is a very long impact).

The blades, as constructed by the rules of table tennis, are not in any significant way energy storage devices. They just waste some of that energy on impact.

In theory, if we ignored the rules of table tennis, it is possible to construct a blade that does store energy over the course of the swing, and if timed correctly can release it at point of impact (like a long bamboo cane).

This is likely to result in a far lower frequency of vibration, as we need something that can deform significantly just from swinging. Eg the frequency of operation of a springboard, is somewhere on the order 0.5Hz (it goes through half a wavelength during your final jump of roughly 1s).

This is clearly not a practical or realistic mode of operation of any actual TT blade.

No, This is an opinion.

I am not saying that it is close to an ideal elastic collision quantitatively (eg as opposed to a perfectly inelastic collision).

I'm saying that it is close mechanically. Eg all the energy storage occurs from the impact of 2 kinematic objects. That is to say, we do not have energy stored in the elastic deformation of the objects prior to collision, eg as opposed to jumping of a primed springboard, or loosing an arrow you've drawn.

Here are some facts.

...

Yes I know, those precisely support my point. Because the table tennis bat/blade acts precisely NOT at all like a springboard. The faster blade is the stiffer one, eg one that behaves closer to the steel plate, or ideal rigid object.

Co-incidently, stiffer objects, all else being equal, vibrate at a higher frequency. Thus the co-causal relationship between vibrational frequency of the blade and it's 'speed'.
 
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I see that now your approach to the matter and your conclusions are much closer to mine.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...950-Numerical-Analysis-of-table-tennis-blades

The numerical analysis did help me in the beginning to successfully predict the frequency of some blades. But I quickly found that wood properties have a big variation, and that variation will influence how the blade feels, even if the frequency is within the predicted values. So I stopped doing it. The relation of stiffness/hardness and feedback are the most important aspects to me, and I can predict, based on my empirical knowledge, how the blade is going to suit a determined playstyle, rather than just looking at speed.
 
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The numerical analysis did help me in the beginning to successfully predict the frequency of some blades. But I quickly found that wood properties have a big variation, and that variation will influence how the blade feels, even if the frequency is within the predicted values. So I stopped doing it. The relation of stiffness/hardness and feedback are the most important aspects to me, and I can predict, based on my empirical knowledge, how the blade is going to suit a determined playstyle, rather than just looking at speed.

In the ttgearlab charts the Viscaria is more in the deep-hold part. The Stiga Carbonado 45, 145 and DHS HL5 even more. If asked to build a blade with such deep-hold or more, how would you go about it? Can you describe the process a bit?
 
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In the ttgearlab charts the Viscaria is more in the deep-hold part. The Stiga Carbonado 45, 145 and DHS HL5 even more. If asked to build a blade with such deep-hold or more, how would you go about it? Can you describe the process a bit?

The TTgear lab approach is also based on vibration modes, they measure a few modes and compare them to a reference blade to transform those values into indices. The first mode (deflection) is what they call primary primary elasticity index, the 6th mode (membrane) is what they call central deflection. Then they compare these two values to make that chart of the deep hold/ strong kick stuff. To have a blade with a "deep hold" you basically need it to be stiff but also relatively soft. So, the out of plane deformation is bigger when compared to the longitudinal deflection. If you want a "strong kick" the opposite applies, you need a bigger longitudinal deflection when compared to the out of plane deformation.

I've actually just finished two blades that perfectly fit these examples. The first one is built with soft but stiff woods, Hinoki/Fineline/WRC with 6.4mm and measures 1300Hz. The second one is built with hard outer layers and a soft core, Mahoghany / Yellow Pine/ Kiri with 5.8mm and measures 1184Hz. Despite the frequency readings, you can clearly feel the difference when bouncing a ball on both blades, the first one feels much stiffer, yet it has a lower rebound, while the second one has a much stronger kick.
 
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The TTgear lab approach is also based on vibration modes, they measure a few modes and compare them to a reference blade to transform those values into indices. The first mode (deflection) is what they call primary primary elasticity index, the 6th mode (membrane) is what they call central deflection. Then they compare these two values to make that chart of the deep hold/ strong kick stuff. To have a blade with a "deep hold" you basically need it to be stiff but also relatively soft. So, the out of plane deformation is bigger when compared to the longitudinal deflection. If you want a "strong kick" the opposite applies, you need a bigger longitudinal deflection when compared to the out of plane deformation.

Thank you, it helps. If we take the classical 5+2 (plus possibly some ALC, ZLC) construction, can it be said that the 1st mode (primary elasticity index) is more determined by the blades's core than by the 2 thinner outer layers? And similarly can it be said that the 6th mode (membrane, central deflection) is more determined by the 2 thinner outer layers than by the core? Or is it incorrect?

I've actually just finished two blades that perfectly fit these examples. The first one is built with soft but stiff woods, Hinoki/Fineline/WRC with 6.4mm and measures 1300Hz. The second one is built with hard outer layers and a soft core, Mahoghany / Yellow Pine/ Kiri with 5.8mm and measures 1184Hz. Despite the frequency readings, you can clearly feel the difference when bouncing a ball on both blades, the first one feels much stiffer, yet it has a lower rebound, while the second one has a much stronger kick.

Nice example.
 
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Thank you, it helps. If we take the classical 5+2 (plus possibly some ALC, ZLC) construction, can it be said that the 1st mode (primary elasticity index) is more determined by the blades's core than by the 2 thinner outer layers? And similarly can it be said that the 6th mode (membrane, central deflection) is more determined by the 2 thinner outer layers than by the core? Or is it incorrect?

No, it's actually the opposite. Don't want to get into equations but simply put stiffness is calculated using the Elastic Modulus and Moment of Inertia. The moment of Inertia is dependent on the inertia of each individual layer and their distance to the central axis. The core is very close to the central axis, it coincides with it actually, so it adds very little moment of inertia. The outer layers are the ones most distant to the central axis so they increase the moment of inertia, and in consequence the stiffness. Just think of an I beam, this is the most efficient way of designing a beam, by concentrating the mass on the flanges and alleviating the web.

The 6th mode is a little more complex because all modes of vibration are derived from the first. But the medial ply plays a big part in this because it's responsible for the lateral stiffness of the blade.
 
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The energy in the blade is
Energy = mass*(amplitude*2*PI*Hz)^2/2
Any energy in the blade after contact in not in the ball.
At first glance the energy in the higher frequency blades is higher ( less in the ball ) unless the amplitude of the vibration is decreases more than 2*PI*Hz increases.
I asked earlier about that equation. No one got it.
It is clear that the frequency alone does not determine the energy in the paddle.

I am assuming that ttgear's frequencies are fundamentals. If the 6 mode is the 6th harmonic, the amplitude must be very small.

The frequency method is incomplete because it doesn't take into account the amplitude.
It is much easier to just bounce balls off the blade and compare the the speed before to the speed after impact. This is relatively easy. One can drop a ball on to the blade and see how high the ball bounces.
 
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quote/// It is much easier to just bounce balls off the blade and compare the the speed before to the speed after impact. This is relatively easy. One can drop a ball on to the blade and see how high the ball bounces./////end of quote

Yep, that is how i do it and it works for me.
there is only one problem with this method for me: Normally when I bounce the ball on a blade, the merchant already has got a grin on his face and my money in his pocket.
Not everybody can walk into a top TT-shop with a ball and ask the seller to unpack the goodies and let me do some """ bounce-comparisons"""".
Since i started playing again 3 years ago I have probably bought 8 blades, all of them were mail orders. I am positive that I am not in a unique position.

So completely apart from the technicalities involved into establishing the XYZ factor of a blade, what we, the buyers, would like to see is a factor that ALL blade makers would adopt so that there would be at least a small chance to compare apples with apples instead of being bullshitted by the fantasy-figures dished up to us by the individual manufacturers.

Am I holding my breath in anticipation of this ever happening in my life time ? Hell no !!!;););)
 
What about the period of oscilation of the ball for its fundamental frequency mode and how it refers to the time of contact with rigid blade /something more specific about an eventual resonance scenario and in what ball/blade modes and speeds it may occur/ and rubbered blade /plus the previous/, and what kind of modes are adequate to consider acoustically relevant in rubber-blade-arm system? And what happens if that system is not static?
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
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Has anyone noticed that at the time of my posting on this thread, that 14 of the last 15 threads that TTD Members have made posts have been on EQUIPMENT THREADS?

Anyone see a small pattern with the tendencies and preferences of our TTD members? :D

It is unstated, but there is an implicit assumption that "if only I could find the perfect setup, all my technical flaws would mysteriously vanish".
 
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So completely apart from the technicalities involved into establishing the XYZ factor of a blade, what we, the buyers, would like to see is a factor that ALL blade makers would adopt so that there would be at least a small chance to compare apples with apples instead of being bullshitted by the fantasy-figures dished up to us by the individual manufacturers.

Sadly this is against the interests of the manufacturers. The fundamental goal of salesmanship is to make someone buy something against their own interests, or at the very least to purchase irrationally.

The more obfuscated their information is, the more likely people are to buy a blade, not like it, and then go buy another blade. Manufacturers COULD just do the bounce test, and tell you by a standardised measure how fast their blade is.

But it's better for them to appear to be giving you a lot of information, but for everyone to be a little confused, and always be on the lookout for that blade that's just right for them. Never quite knowing what to expect from their next purchase.
 
says Table tennis clown
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Sadly this is against the interests of the manufacturers. The fundamental goal of salesmanship is to make someone buy something against their own interests, or at the very least to purchase irrationally.

The more obfuscated their information is, the more likely people are to buy a blade, not like it, and then go buy another blade. Manufacturers COULD just do the bounce test, and tell you by a standardised measure how fast their blade is.

But it's better for them to appear to be giving you a lot of information, but for everyone to be a little confused, and always be on the lookout for that blade that's just right for them. Never quite knowing what to expect from their next purchase.

Sighhhh! Yeah, I know, I call it """Always against the little fat-ones""" :mad:
 
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What about the period of oscilation of the ball for its fundamental frequency mode and how it refers to the time of contact with rigid blade /something more specific about an eventual resonance scenario and in what ball/blade modes and speeds it may occur/ and rubbered blade /plus the previous/, and what kind of modes are adequate to consider acoustically relevant in rubber-blade-arm system? And what happens if that system is not static?
This is what I am trying to get at with my spring board examples. The ball, rubber and blade all compress or bend. If they don't expand or restore shape at the same time in phase then some of the energy will be lost or cancelled.
 
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Ugh, the very moment hard-headed engineer posted "Why aren't there any 5000 Hz blades?", those who have studied/done modal analysis died inside.

giphy.gif
 
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