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  1. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by lightspin
    While training in China I got to ask a CNT coach one question and the answer helped me more than anything I was told in my 2 years there.
    Oh come on. You can't throw something like this out there and leave everyone hanging.

    hahahahahaha.

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    #42

    Table tennis vs road cycling and what we know from science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Couldn’t find a better explanation than this. “Power will naturally come”, “Power in the timing”. They all come down here. It should be consciously attempted but not too direct.


    ”Relaxing”, “Liberating”, or “Being Flexible”, or “Soft”. Whatever words we come up with. They seem obvious but to some, like me, take time to get. I only realise how hard it is when I look back at lower level players and see how they can’t even get it after much more years of playing than me.
    So, I have tried to describe some of what I do for work. A lot of the time, people who are trying to teach people how to do handstands, talk about how you have to engage your core or contract your abdomen, or what ever language they choose to use. The statements are not incorrect. But, invariably, telling people to do that causes the entirely wrong thing to happen, causes the wrong abdominal muscles to activate and causes them to activate in a manner that is contrary to holding your spin lengthened in space while balancing upside down.

    So, frequently, to show how the abdomen does what it is supposed to without you thinking about it, I would jump into a handstand with my legs parallel to the ground. In that position, you cannot hold it unless the abdomen does more of what it needs to. And when I hold it, the abdomen pulls in as it engages rather than how, when people try to consciously engage their abdomen, it will usually push out.

    Instead, things I talk about with people trying to improve their handstands are, how to keep their fingers relaxed; A way of using the hands so you actually create an arch with your hand like the arch of your foot; What part of the hand they should feel pressing into the ground; Not to worry about where the legs are in space until you are solidly balanced, when solidly balanced you can adjust the legs much more easily; And how to try and feel your hips centered over your shoulders, over your hands (your base of support).

    Why the info about the hands? Because people also make their hands rigid and then the hands cannot be responsive to adjustments that allow you to maintain balance, so you can use your hands more like the way we use our feet to maintain balance and never even think about how we use our feet.

    When they start thinking about those things that will help them find and control their center of gravity, the abdomen will definitely do what it is supposed to, which is quite specific and different than how many people think of it. But, for you to stay balanced, upside down, with good posture, your abdomen will have to do its job. But it is also worth noting that you can stay balanced and upside down without good posture (where the abdomen won't have to do as much) and that is still better balance than squeezing your abdomen, tightening your hands and not balancing.

    If you are thinking about tightening the grip on impact, you might mess it up. But, maybe think about digging into the ball on impact (while brushing) and the grip pressure you want might happen.

    Also, Der_Echte talks about soft grip pressure for interesting effects. It would be interesting to see what happens if every so often you try to consciously make your grip pressure really soft and relaxed on contact: while pushing.....while looping.

    The first time Der and I met NextLevel, NL had been talking about how, at their level (the level of Der and NL) someone couldn't just push and beat him.

    Der proceeded to play a match with NL where he kept pushing long and changing his grip pressure on the pushes and NL thought he was playing a magical LP player who could alternate heavy and light backspin at will, while the motion and effort of the stroke looked the same.

    When you know what it should feel like, then manipulating your grip pressure is different than thinking of squeezing or tightening on contact.

    By the way, all this stuff I am talking about is entirely related to why that movement professor, 20 something years ago got so frustrated and made that demonstration about moving from sitting to standing, how it takes over 180 muscles acting, timed, in synergy, in opposition, on both sides of joints, and how, if he was consciously attempting to activate the muscles to do the work, our ancestors would have been eaten by predators when they tried to run and none of us would be here. (That is closer to what he actually said than the more PC version I posted which is quoted below although he did mention walking down the street as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    In a movement theory class decades ago, there was this student who kept on really asking the same question over and over again, and the teacher was sort of annoyed with it.

    The question was basically: "what muscles do you engage to do this ______(fill in the blank) movement." The teacher kept answering with things about the movement pattern and the quality of the movement and about how, in any movement you use a lot of muscles and you don't want to try and think about that because it will mess up the movement quality if you are trying to think about things like that.

    Finally, after something like the 10th time a question about which muscles was asked, the teacher got frustrated and said:

    "Do you see this movement?" And he stood up from his chair and sat back down. Then he did the movement 2 more times for emphasis. "You use approximately 180 muscles to do that movement. The contractions are a complex balance of agonists and antagonists, synchronized and timed in a complex sequence. If we had to think about what muscles to contract, we would never be able to walk down the street."

    The details that get you to be able to perform the action, at some point they have to be dropped and then you just do the movement while thinking of more important things like the arc of the ball for the shot. And when children are developing and learning movement patterns they definitely are not thinking in terms of technical specifics.

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    #43
    Quotes from The Unfettered Mind
    Writings of the Zen master to the sword master (by Takuan Soho)

    If you do not train in technique, but only fill your breast with principle, your body and
    your hands will not function. Training in technique, if put into terms of your own martial art, is in the training that if practiced over and over again makes the five body postures one. Even though you know principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of technique. And even though you may wield the sword that you carry with you well, if you are unclear on the deepest aspects of principle, you will likely fall short of proficiency. Technique and principle are just like the two wheels of a cart.

    Where One Puts the Mind

    If you consider putting your mind below your navel and not letting it wander, your mind
    will be taken by the mind that thinks of this plan. You will have no ability to move ahead and will be exceptionally unfree. This leads to the next question, "If putting my mind below my navel leaves me unable to function and without freedom, it is of no use. In what part of my body, then, should I put my mind?" I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye, and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning. "No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will lack its functioning." "Well, then, where does one put his mind." I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your eye, it will realize the eye's function.

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  4. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    Quotes from The Unfettered Mind
    Writings of the Zen master to the sword master (by Takuan Soho)

    If you do not train in technique, but only fill your breast with principle, your body and
    your hands will not function. Training in technique, if put into terms of your own martial art, is in the training that if practiced over and over again makes the five body postures one. Even though you know principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of technique. And even though you may wield the sword that you carry with you well, if you are unclear on the deepest aspects of principle, you will likely fall short of proficiency. Technique and principle are just like the two wheels of a cart.

    Where One Puts the Mind

    If you consider putting your mind below your navel and not letting it wander, your mind
    will be taken by the mind that thinks of this plan. You will have no ability to move ahead and will be exceptionally unfree. This leads to the next question, "If putting my mind below my navel leaves me unable to function and without freedom, it is of no use. In what part of my body, then, should I put my mind?" I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye, and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning. "No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will lack its functioning." "Well, then, where does one put his mind." I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your eye, it will realize the eye's function.
    Yep. That is the same thing as most of what I am saying.

    [edit: The details of what to focus on in the handstand illustration are ones that would help someone find their center of gravity. But once you are competent at balancing, you don't have to focus on anything and can therefore play within the handstand. But, Baal's text, describes what I am talking about from another perspective.]

    Where is OSPH when martial arts philosophy is mentioned.


    Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland

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    #45
    UpSideDownCarl;338431With what I teach, which is not TT, I am often asked what style of yoga I teach. My first answer is that I teach people. It is a smart aleck answer. But some people get it without further explanation. And, I nevertheless explain, if I was teaching anatomy, and I had four students, a medical dr, a construction worker, a computer programmer and a secretary, I would definitely not teach them all the same material or use the same methods.

    My understanding of teaching is that you have a person and subject matter; when the person understands the subject matter being covered, they have learned. The teaching is the problem solving it takes to get the student to understand the subject matter. The student does the learning. The teacher needs to keep open to the process of problem solving whatever it is that will get the student to start figuring out and understanding the subject matter. When the lightbulb switches on and the student gets it, then at least a certain amount of the learning has occurred.

    I think, with yoga teachers, they often rely on a system that will work for some and not for others. I think the same thing happens for TT coaches. They find something worked for one student and apply it to others without testing the effectiveness or checking if other methods would be more useful. Of course you also have the coaches who are adept at working with kids because they were trained as kids and know how to work with kids. But don't understand why those same methods won't work with adults. And of course what would get a child to learn easily could also cause injury to an adult learner. So, the system is there; the skill in TT is there. But the problem solving and the ability to read the student and see what they are getting and what they are not getting, it is not there. This is a huge issue (bigger than in TT) in fields like dance and gymnastics where you are playing with movement at end range of motion where, for children, they can really do a lot of things that would cause an adult to end up in the hospital. A lot of yoga injuries fall into that category as well. It was good for someone. But not for most of the fitness minded adults in group classes for whom those extreme range of motion techniques are being taught.

    If you are really trying to teach someone, you have to be open to trying many different approaches. This is actually one of the things that makes Brett Clarke amazing. He really has come up with a multitude of ways to help get people to understand what they are trying to do. It is too bad that kind of skill is so rare in many kinds of teaching.
    Related but unrelated:

    Using boxing as an example, take 2 famous coaching greats: Cus D'Amato and Emmanuel Steward. Steward would work with a boxer and check out his strengths and weaknesses and then adapt his coaching to the student, that is, Steward took the boxer/individual in question and adapted.

    Cus on the other hand used a cookie cutter approach. ... he taught all his boxers the Peek-A-Boo style, most notably champions such as Mike Tyson, Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres.

    Both teaching methodologies work, as witness the champions both coaches produce, but i believe it depends on the boxer/student, which methodology that will resonate with them. Some students need the teachings "dumbed down" and will adapt themselves to the teachings, where other students need custom/individualized teachings to work synergistically with their existing skills/knowledge.

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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    it’s also Interesting that there are certain types of ‘learners’ some retain information better when they listen, some better when they watch, some when they touch and feel or actually ‘do’ some when they read etc

    it’s definitely the case about being at a certain level can mean you can’t see some things!!
    For example before COVID my kids used to play badminton, the coach played County level, and his son was in the running for National matches but didn’t quite make it. I think the coach was also coaching Nat std juniors at some point.
    We were talking about the BH grip, there is a change of grip from FH to BH, thumb position changes, now I was taught this as a junior, but he showed me a second thumb position that increases accuracy for hitting the shuttle into the court when pushed deep into the backhand corner. So simple, but generally not known by many players or coaches. He was shown it by a Chinese coach!!!

    On another tangent, the coaches first name is Dick, when he was playing at county level, back in the day. They used to announce the players as they came onto court, surname first, Christian name second, I would have loved to have been there. His surname is Large !!!
    Beat me to it! NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) teaches that people process information in 3 primary ways: visual, auditory and kinesthetic. A good instructor/coach will be able to tell which primary mode a student learns and be able to deliver the teacher via that mode to sync up. Perhaps easy to do 1 on 1, but in a group class, a good instructor can play it safe and deliver the teaching via all 3 modes so at least 1 mode will resonate with each student.

    LOLOL at Large Richard!

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    Table tennis is best when you are liberated from mechanics. I'm reminded of something one of the grests said about jazz improvisation (I've forgotten who), "study hard, lesrn everything, then work to forget it". Or something like that. The idea is if you're actually thinking about your mechanics in free play, you will suck. If you're thinking about where your left foot is, your right foot will mess you up.

    Liberation comes from really hard drilling. You need to be strong g enough, fit enough, and flexible enough to withstand it.
    In martial arts, it is called "no-mindedness", and specifically in Japanese MA, it is 'mushin'. In sports, it can be called "flow" or "in the zone".

    Although muscles have no memory, the term "muscle memory" stuck. "Motor memory" may be a better term.

    A beginner needs to drill enough to get the strokes into muscle memory and be able to just flow and be in the moment instead of concentrating on the mechanics although most if not all beginners of anything will concentrate on the mechanics of what they are to do at first.

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    #48
    UpSideDownCarl;338716Yep. That is the same thing as most of what I am saying.

    [edit: The details of what to focus on in the handstand illustration are ones that would help someone find their center of gravity. But once you are competent at balancing, you don't have to focus on anything and can therefore play within the handstand. But, Baal's text, describes what I am talking about from another perspective.]

    Where is OSPH when martial arts philosophy is mentioned.


    Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland
    LOLOL

    Thank you Carl for the heads up!

    ........

    Quotes from The Unfettered Mind
    Writings of the Zen master to the sword master (by Takuan Soho)

    If you do not train in technique, but only fill your breast with principle, your body and your hands will not function. Training in technique, if put into terms of your own martial art, is in the training that if practiced over and over again makes the five body postures one. Even though you know principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of technique. And even though you may wield the sword that you carry with you well, if you are unclear on the deepest aspects of principle, you will likely fall short of proficiency. Technique and principle are just like the two wheels of a cart.

    Where One Puts the Mind

    If you consider putting your mind below your navel and not letting it wander, your mind will be taken by the mind that thinks of this plan. You will have no ability to move ahead and will be exceptionally unfree. This leads to the next question, "If putting my mind below my navel leaves me unable to function and without freedom, it is of no use. In what part of my body, then, should I put my mind?"

    I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye, and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning.

    "No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will lack its functioning."

    "Well, then, where does one put his mind." I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your eye, it will realize the eye's function.

    ........

    TRIVIA

    Takuan Soho was a Zen master and the "sword master" referred above was most likely Yagyu Munenori, one of Miyamoto Musashi's contemporaries. YM also had the distinction of being the instructor of the Shogun IIRC. Like Musashi, Munenori wrote his treatise on swordsmanship. Different translators used different titles, one of the popular translations named it "The Life-Giving Sword" (William Scott Wilson). Another translation named it "The Sword and the Mind" (H. Sato)

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  9. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #49
    OldschoolPenholder;338740
    Although muscles have no memory, the term "muscle memory" stuck. "Motor memory" may be a better term.
    Yep. It is the term. The memory is actually from the neural pathways that initiate the movement pattern. Which is also why, with simpler movements, when you replace a dysfunctional movement pattern with a more functional one, the new, more efficient movement pattern sticks fairly quickly. In more complex movement patterns like a TT stroke, you need more repetitions before the more efficent movement pattern will stick since there are so many elements.

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  10. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #50
    OldschoolPenholder;338737Related but unrelated:

    Using boxing as an example, take 2 famous coaching greats: Cus D'Amato and Emmanuel Steward. Steward would work with a boxer and check out his strengths and weaknesses and then adapt his coaching to the student, that is, Steward took the boxer/individual in question and adapted.

    Cus on the other hand used a cookie cutter approach. ... he taught all his boxers the Peek-A-Boo style, most notably champions such as Mike Tyson, Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres.

    Both teaching methodologies work, as witness the champions both coaches produce, but i believe it depends on the boxer/student, which methodology that will resonate with them. Some students need the teachings "dumbed down" and will adapt themselves to the teachings, where other students need custom/individualized teachings to work synergistically with their existing skills/knowledge.

    On this, it is hard to really say "both teaching methodologies work". What we can say is Cus D'Amato's approach worked for the guys it worked for. D'Amato found a decent number of guys his system worked for or he could not have become successful. We would also have to look at the guys his system did not work for to assess how successful his system was across a broad population of candidates. Or if the system ended up, by default, selecting out the candidates that would thrive in that particular system. But, any system that achieves a certain degree of success needs to work for a decently broad percentage of the population and also needs the people the system works for to find the system.

    So, was it that Tyson or Patterson walked into a system that just fit them, and therefore, they excelled. Or did D'Amato also have a system that would work for a decent percentage of the population. I would suspect there was a little of both.

    But this is still not the problem solving of teaching. In this scenario, you have a system, and the people the system works for LEARN within the system. Rather than the problem solving of figuring out what the person does not know and figuring out how to help them understand the stuff they are missing.

    So, the system might set up the process of learning for some. But, it isn't exactly teaching to run 400 people through the exact same regimen/system and have the 50 people that system is designed well for come through having learned. Learning may happen. But the process that people are being led through is not so much teaching as drilling. Will drilling within a rigid system work? For many it will. But that is different than what the art of teaching is.

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  11. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #51
    OldschoolPenholder;338737Related but unrelated:

    Using boxing as an example, take 2 famous coaching greats: Cus D'Amato and Emmanuel Steward. Steward would work with a boxer and check out his strengths and weaknesses and then adapt his coaching to the student, that is, Steward took the boxer/individual in question and adapted.

    Cus on the other hand used a cookie cutter approach. ... he taught all his boxers the Peek-A-Boo style, most notably champions such as Mike Tyson, Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres.

    Both teaching methodologies work, as witness the champions both coaches produce, but i believe it depends on the boxer/student, which methodology that will resonate with them. Some students need the teachings "dumbed down" and will adapt themselves to the teachings, where other students need custom/individualized teachings to work synergistically with their existing skills/knowledge.

    On this, it is hard to really say "both teaching methodologies work". What we can say is Cus D'Amato's approach worked for the guys it worked for. D'Amato found a decent number of guys his system worked for or he could not have become successful. We would also have to look at the guys his system did not work for to assess how successful his system was across a broad population of candidates. Or if the system ended up, by default, selecting out the candidates that would thrive in that particular system. But, any system that achieves a certain degree of success needs to work for a decently broad percentage of the population and also needs the people the system works for to find the system.

    So, was it that Tyson or Patterson walked into a system that just fit them, and therefore, they excelled. Or did D'Amato also have a system that would work for a decent percentage of the population. I would suspect there was a little of both.

    But this is still not the problem solving of teaching. In this scenario, you have a system, and the people the system works for LEARN within the system. Rather than the problem solving of figuring out what the person does not know and figuring out how to help them understand the stuff they are missing.

    So, the system might set up the process of learning for some. But, it isn't exactly teaching to run 400 people through the exact same regimen/system and have the 50 people that system is designed well for come through having learned. Learning may happen. But the process that people are being led through is not so much teaching as drilling. Will drilling within a rigid system work? For many it will. But that is different than what the art of teaching is.

    So, I would say, your example may be comparing the relative successes of, on the one hand, a system that worked for a certain number of people and in the process of implementing the system, the system selected out for the people who would thrive WITHIN THAT SYSTEM, and an approach where someone was trying to adapt the training and practice to the person.

    Regardless of which system you are talking about learning can happen. A person can go from not understanding something to understanding it; or from not being able to do something to being able to do it and thereby, understanding it. But the teaching would be the problem solving that gets the student from not understanding to understanding. If we are talking about a system that is applied in exactly the same manner to all "students" and the ones who learn, learn. And the ones who don't, don't, that isn't actually teaching even though learning happens for some, so it can be effective "coaching" FOR SOME.

    Said differently, this is sort of what Baal was talking about with coaches who are great at drilling kids and getting them from a low level to quite a high level fairly quickly, who then try to apply that same system on adult learners only to find it did not work and the adult learners sustained injuries that actually made them get worse. So, yeah, a system can work for the people it works for. And that is different than the understanding the underlying principles of the art of teaching.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-06-2021 at 05:57 AM.
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    #52
    A thought just occurred to me: In discussing cycling performance we talk about functional threshold power (FTP), VO2max, power output curves, optimal cadence, training stress scores, ca.oric and fluid balance, and on and on. There are things anyone can do to get better, you just have to actually do them (and you optimize training with some moderately expensive bits and pieces like power meters, heart rate monitors, and computer head units).

    In table tennis I just quoted a fifteenth century zen master. And most of the "sciencey" threads here pertain to actually nothing that actually gets you better even if claims made are true. For example, if you knew that a certain ZLC blade was EXACTLY 5.63% faster than a certain ALC blade, would that precise information have any impact on your level? Not yet.

    Our sport is much more difficult! And its hard to measure stuff the player is doing.

    Edit added: the caveat being in road cycling being very smart and experienced is really important, but only if the rider is strong and fit enough to actually put themselves where they need to be. Because once you crack physiologically it's over. People say you only have so many matches to burn, choose wisely.

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    Last edited by Baal; 02-06-2021 at 11:46 AM.

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    #53
    UpSideDownCarl;338742Yep. It is the term. The memory is actually from the neural pathways that initiate the movement pattern. Which is also why, with simpler movements, when you replace a dysfunctional movement pattern with a more functional one, the new, more efficient movement pattern sticks fairly quickly. In more complex movement patterns like a TT stroke, you need more repetitions before the more efficent movement pattern will stick since there are so many elements.

    This is how my unofficial coaches have been fixing me and it seems to work. (Like all adults starting the sport from random, I had a lot of bad self-invented movements, tough to let go.) You break down that complex movement and then you focus on just one or two simple parts of it, get it into you. (This is where taking & blocking the ball early helps a lot if you don't do multiball. The pace is fast but the ball is not too powerful, your brain only has a split of a second to remind you to do what you are trying to, continuously. It pushes the pattern in very quickly) Takes weeks. Then you focus on another part. Then you focus on combining them together.

    By now, when it goes from toes to tips. I got stuck a bit sometimes until I read this thread. That "no-mindedness" or "don't put it anywhere". When some parts of the body get stiff, I focus on that part to fix but that seems wrong. More often than not, it lies in some other parts so if I just let the mind wander a bit and it gets fixed.

    My backhand mid-distance top spin for example. It always ends with the shoulder way too stiff for a rally. A couple of days back, I just let go the mind off shoulder and suddenly I realised it was because I didn't push the feet forward enough so there was a "pull-back" in the body. I need a table to see how it works out but I kinda feel the swing much better.

    So thanks all for this.

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K

    This is how my unofficial coaches have been fixing me and it seems to work. (Like all adults starting the sport from random, I had a lot of bad self-invented movements, tough to let go.) You break down that complex movement and then you focus on just one or two simple parts of it, get it into you. (This is where taking & blocking the ball early helps a lot if you don't do multiball. The pace is fast but the ball is not too powerful, your brain only has a split of a second to remind you to do what you are trying to, continuously. It pushes the pattern in very quickly) Takes weeks. Then you focus on another part. Then you focus on combining them together.

    By now, when it goes from toes to tips. I got stuck a bit sometimes until I read this thread. That "no-mindedness" or "don't put it anywhere". When some parts of the body get stiff, I focus on that part to fix but that seems wrong. More often than not, it lies in some other parts so if I just let the mind wander a bit and it gets fixed.

    My backhand mid-distance top spin for example. It always ends with the shoulder way too stiff for a rally. A couple of days back, I just let go the mind off shoulder and suddenly I realised it was because I didn't push the feet forward enough so there was a "pull-back" in the body. I need a table to see how it works out but I kinda feel the swing much better.

    So thanks all for this.

    Good stuff. Breaking down the stroke into separate elements is good stuff.

    Things like shadow strokes with a mirror so you can see what you are doing can really help. Also, self hitting can be really useful, especially if you are doing it in front of a mirror that allows you to see and self correct. I don't think I would have ever improved how I move to the ball without getting the whole body coordination from doing shadow stroke and footwork drills.

    The reason these two can be so beneficial to an adult learner is you eliminate the need to track and intercept the ball and then working on the whole movement is much more possible. It is not the same as responding in real time to the ball. But it can get the nervous system to learn some of the action needed and then it applies what is learned while tracking and intercepting the ball.

    Self hitting:


    Shadow stroke and footwork:

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-06-2021 at 12:46 PM.
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    #55
    UpSideDownCarl;338766

    Good stuff. Breaking down the stroke into separate elements is good stuff.

    Things like shadow strokes with a mirror so you can see what you are doing can really help. Also, self hitting can be really useful, especially if you are doing it in front of a mirror that allows you to see and self correct. I don't think I would have ever improved how I move to the ball without getting the whole body coordination from doing shadow stroke and footwork drills.

    The reason these two can be so beneficial to an adult learner is you eliminate the need to track and intercept the ball and then working on the whole movement is much more possible. It is not the same as responding in real time to the ball. But it can get the nervous system to learn some of the action needed and then it applies what is learned while tracking and intercepting the ball.

    Self hitting:


    Shadow stroke and footwork:
    The golf swing is similar in that it is broken down into chunks or parts of the swing so that your brain can cope!! And just concentrate on two or 3 parts. Any more than 3 can be overwhelming!!!
    Once the parts in question have been drilled in and hopefully become 'natural' you can move onto the next segment of points.
    the best golf practice ranges also have a mirror, these are quite rare but if you can find one that has mirrors it gives you the chance to see your posture, hand, head, leg positions, shaft position , club head orientation etc at any given point in your swing.
    Of course you have to know where you should be, so I used to have a SLO MO clip of my swing and snap shot stills at the various positions on my phone (these were taken by my coach after I had been 'put in the position' (stationary) every coaching session is filmed by the coach and kept in his computer file for each player.) I could then refer to the snap shots and compare to what I was seeing in the mirror when I put myself in the various positions, Face on and rear snap shots.

    The video coaching file also provides video evidence of how you are progressing, what the initial faults may have been, have they actually been removed or crept back in!!! Maybe 3 out of 4 are now good but one may have slipped back into play, so you can revisit that point, isolate and correct.

    I'm guilty of not filming myself enough when training and more importantly playing competitively, it's a real eye opener when you do actually watch yourself, if you watch the footage with your coach, both of you can assess what's right and wrong, with technique, movement and tactics etc similar to what Brain has been doing in his recent posts, which as far as I'm concerned have all been excellent.
    This is something that if possible we should all do, young or old, it may not be pretty, but is an invaluable aid, something for me to try and get done in future.

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