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  1. TTOmar is online now
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    #1

    Opinion: Butterfly Pros using Tenergy were playing better than using Dignics

    The title says it all. I believe Butterfly Pros who were especially using Tenergy 05 playing better against Chinese Players when the plastic ball era began and it resulted with;
    - Dimitrij Ovtcharov( he was at Donic but using Tenergy rubbers) being number 1 and winner of 2017 World Tour.
    - Timo Boll making a career resurgance ,ranked in Top 5 and had a 2017 World Tour Final Match against Dima
    - Tomokazu Harimoto beating records on being youngest World Tour and Finals winner. He was using Tenergy 64 and 80 rubbers. His key aspect was playing close to table using fast and consistent strokes.

    The plastic ball era made ball play less spinny and slower. On this occasion stroking the ball and playing close to the table became more convenient. This situation made some of the pro players who were using tensor rubbers gaining more advantage against sticky chinese rubbers on fast play. Of course Chinese players were still dominant, but their dominance was not based on their equipment. It was based on their frequent training and footwork.
    Later on manifactures began to release new hard grippy rubbers to regain the spinny play without losing much speed that is lost in plastic ball era. Butterfly released their newly rubbers Dignics series. Many pros started to use Dignics 05, but eventually even for pro players Dignics 05's hardness and required movement to increase spin werent quite easy and responsive on forehand in match play. Therefore Butterfly released Dignics 09c which is a rubber with spring sponge x with a sticky topsheet. Currently many Butterfly pros switched to it from their D05 or T05 which actually enjoy using them. Dima and Boll admitted they were more comfortable on strokes and their topspins. But the thing is they were not successful enough against Chinese players like they were in 2016-2017. Because I believe they still suffer lack of speed which T05 provided with that kicking effect. Dima in his video with Dan explained the difference of T05 and D09c, which are;
    -D09c becomes faster when the ball goes away from the table. The ball is slower due to high amount of spin coming on the table at first.
    -T05 is faster on the table due to kick effect but lose its speed away from the table.

    ​​​​​​These statements actually made me think in professional stage looping spinny balls are absolutely more important to be able to stay on the rally. I see this method currently as a reproduction of celluloid ball era though it may not faster as before but can be spinny. But imitating current Chinese style not only requires having the same equipment but also requires same quality and amount of training and footwork which I believe currently can be defeated only with more speed and unexpected strokes which were reliable methods when using T05. Both D05 and D09c require more body movement thus making the oncoming ball more predictable to Chinese players. So that's it that is my opinion. Hope you read it all and want to see your comments. Best regards.

  2. Creek is offline
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    #2
    I totally disagree in the assumption that T05 was better for europeans.
    Let‘s see it from a different angle: in the first years of the plastic ball era, the game was still the same as with celluloid. Players going away from the table, playing topspins. In the last few years, players changed their style, staying closer and giving more pressure. T05 is not made for this kind of style, since the kick is too big and the trajectory too long. Still playing the old way is also no option, since your ass will get kicked by those staying close to the table.
    dignics in this term offers high arc at low impact and lower arc at high impact, which perfectly fits close to the table style. This is why not only Europeans play with Dignics, but also Chinese like FZD or LGY.
    regarding Harimoto: his success in the first years primarily came from his blocking style which at that time nobody played since ages. Pretty much players struggled to play and win against him, as they were not used to this style of playing. Now some years later, they played several times against him and know what to do (same as Chinese struggled at first against Boll in the early 2000s...)

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  3. Music&Ping is offline
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    #3
    Also, Lin Yun-Ju and Franziska adapted very well to the Dignics 05 and are doing well with it, an asian player + a european player. Franziska has recently beaten Falck in the Bundesliga, the kind of player that is exactly playing closed to the table applying enormous pressure against his opponents.

    Lin Yun-Ju has beaten Ma Long recently too

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    Last edited by Music&Ping; 1 Week Ago at 03:53 PM.

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    #4
    I think Creek's assessment is on-point.

    Futhermore, pros know best what suits them more based on the pros and cons of the equipment they try.
    Especially highly professional and detail-oriented players like Timo and Dima, or coaches like Tomo's dad or the CNT which either plays Dignics or H3 37 on the BH.

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    Last edited by thomas.pong; 1 Week Ago at 07:46 PM.

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    #5
    Timo Boll prepared and used T05 of different weights/hardness (1g differences) based on his form and the opponent. I refuse to believe that he couldn’t realize whether a rubber affect his game or not. Pros like Dima and Boll are super detailed oriented, and they would know after one or two tournaments that a rubber would benefit them or vice versa.
    IMO, D05 is obviously a better version of T05, I don’t think it requires more body movement, it’s just as fast as T05 with a little more spin and consistency. Meanwhile D09c is a totally different type of rubber even though it has the same brand name Dignics.

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    #6
    Well, D05 is a bit easeir to use compared to T05. The D09c however will not have as high of an impact to player usage compared to D05 imho.

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  7. Music&Ping is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 99yogi_bear
    Well, D05 is a bit easeir to use compared to T05. The D09c however will not have as high of an impact to player usage compared to D05 imho.

    Well it doesn't seem so obvious: some members of the french female national team recently made the switch to the D09C, as Pauline Chasselin, and they find it very easy to use, to her opinion it's the perfect match on the FH with the Apolonia ZLC the French NT also uses a lot. D05 on BH, really big difference when it comes to FH counter top spins between both rubbers, well that's what she said to Christophe Legoût in a Zoom itw late 2020. Really 2 different "animals" Here Pauline Chasselin beating the young french sensation Prithika Pavade [video=face]https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https://www.facebook.com/butterfly.france/videos/1864633707017093/[/video]

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    Last edited by Music&Ping; 6 Days Ago at 02:31 PM.

  8. brokenball is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TTOmar
    The plastic ball era made ball play less spinny and slower.
    Just a little. The new balls have little more inertia and the radius has increased by a small fraction. While that is different it isn't that different. The stroke must be a little faster by 1.25% to get the same spin. The change in inertia doesn't make that much difference because the paddle is so much heavier than the ball. The inertia of the ball is a little more than 2.5% more.

    -D09c becomes faster when the ball goes away from the table. The ball is slower due to high amount of spin coming on the table at first.
    -T05 is faster on the table due to kick effect but lose its speed away from the table.
    How does the ball know if it is close or far away from the table?

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  9. Music&Ping is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    How does the ball know if it is close or far away from the table?
    Sorry I had to laugh hahaha

    I guess he was trying to say that when leaving the racket, the D09C ball's speed starts increasing all the way to the opponents side. T05 does not do the same: the ball's speed is decreasing on its way to the opponent's side, well... that's how I'm understanding that part of the post.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    Sorry I had to laugh hahaha

    I guess he was trying to say that when leaving the racket, the D09C ball's speed starts increasing all the way to the opponents side. T05 does not do the same: the ball's speed is decreasing on its way to the opponent's side, well... that's how I'm understanding that part of the post.
    The ball with high top-spin, after it touches the table, it "dips down", it bounces a bit lower, sometimes even goes under the opponent's bat, who may turn his head in disbelief :-) Perhaps this is what TTOmar meant? Cheers...

  11. Der_Echte is online now
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    #11

    How does the ball know if it is close or far away from the table?

    I would say that is an outstanding question barking up the RIGHT tree.If a player strikes the same ball with the same rubber at two different distances from endline... know that as the ball travels through the air, due to resistance (assume constant air) ball always is slowing down... and assuming the same power of strike... then the question tuns into:HOW can a ball struck further away (The one struck at mid or further distance like 1-2 meters behind endline) have a FASTER speed when measured at the ENDLINE, over the same ball struck from same bat and rubber (struck from at the table maybe .3 meter behind endline) that travels significantly less distance ???!!!

    Yup, since the ball is slowing down in the air, it should be IMPOSSIBLE for the ball struck at distance to be faster by the time it gets to the endline... and if you measure it at the net or opponent's endline, the ball struck with from mid to far distance will be slower... always... assuming the same powerful strike.Now a secret that both Der_Echte and Segey Tsos use is a trick the WARP TIME ITSELF.

    Yup. We warp time... we actually specialize in it.How do we do it? Well, we take a big swing at the ball like we trying to unwrap one huge-azz Quarter Pounder... but we do not strike trhe ball solidly to make a very slow, yet extremely spinny ball. Opponents are SO ACCUSTOMED to a faster ball from this swing, their senses are tuned to the bang-bang ball... so on many levels, they arer warped and twisted.

    These opponents start swing way too fast and halfway through swing realize it is ALL WRONG... but by then, it is TOO LATE and they are way ahead of the ball and strike it way long/out.So... I guess the question can be:

    DOES IT REALLY MATTER if your top end is .003732 divided by Pi kph faster at whatever distance?

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  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #12
    A detail I think TTOmar might be missing is, the period he is talking about and saying the Non-Chinese players played better seems to coincide with the period where:

    1) CCP fired Kong Linghui and Liu Gouliang which caused the top CNT players to protest and withdraw from a prominent tournament, which caused the CCP to give all the players who protested a ban from playing.
    2) That is also around when the new rating system went into effect which relies on how many tournaments you played in a year.

    So, as a result of a new rating system that required players to be active in competitions, and a ban on the top CNT players playing by the Chinese government, all the top Chinese players ratings dropped way down since they were not allowed to play.

    Therefore, the analysis in the OP of this thread relies completely on a misunderstanding of the facts.

    Dima would never have gotten a number 1 ranking if he had had to go through top CNT players to get it. He simply had more tournaments and more results to show, which, was part of how the new rating system works.

    I guess, also, when the CNT players rejoined the pro tour, they did not play well and were working with a whole new set of coaches and then Ma Long got injured. For him, this also caused his return to the top 5 to take longer.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 6 Days Ago at 02:03 AM.
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    #13
    Long ago I programmed a two dimensional simulation using 5 differential equations all solved simultaneously. The simulation was for a 40mm ball but a 40.5mm ball will not change things that much. What I found it that the ball speed will drop by half every 5 meters. The ball never accelerates after leaving the paddle UNLESS the ball has a lot of topspin in which case the ball will bounce out low and faster as latej suggested.
    I used a coefficient of drag of 0.5 which is typical of a sphere. If I were to update the simulation I would make the coefficient of drag change as a function of speed. It would be a little more accurate. The coefficient of drag goes up as the ball slows down which is surprisingly odd. The fact the coefficient of drag increases at slower speed may be the cause of what some people call the "sink" effect where the ball is actually sinking due to gravity but the horizontal motion seems to slow down due to the increase coefficient of drag.. It is not a function of the rubber.

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  14. Music&Ping is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Long ago I programmed a two dimensional simulation using 5 differential equations all solved simultaneously. The simulation was for a 40mm ball but a 40.5mm ball will not change things that much. What I found it that the ball speed will drop by half every 5 meters. The ball never accelerates after leaving the paddle UNLESS the ball has a lot of topspin in which case the ball will bounce out low and faster as latej suggested.
    Completely off-topic: THIS shows exactly why the 38mm cell-ball era was all about faster speed, because of stronger spins that ball allowed.

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    #15
    well,first things first,i dont think players are dumb to just change their equipment.so if they did,its probably for a good reason.
    second thing is, these guys are pro players.its kinda weird imagining that just a change in equipment can have such a massive impact on how they play.
    and far as timo boll, i think you have to understand that the 2017 timo was his peak. you have to notice the fact that he is aging and sadly, he's a bit too old.so, its not fair to him to compare the 2021 timo to the 2017 timo.

  16. Music&Ping is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheKhan123
    well,first things first,i dont think players are dumb to just change their equipment.so if they did,its probably for a good reason.
    second thing is, these guys are pro players.its kinda weird imagining that just a change in equipment can have such a massive impact on how they play.
    Not weird at all: their feel, senses in general are by far superior to amateur or semi-pro level players, they can feel the difference, even if it's a very small one, between equipments.

    As a pro musician I can tell you in a blind test the difference between 2 guitars with the same kind of Stratocaster design, because my ears are trained to do so: the attack, the frequency response, sometimes a very small difference can make a big difference in the mixing studio with the sound engineer's brain.

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  17. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #17
    I think that you are missing one key point. Those players were not the only factor that has changed over time. The ball is constantly changing (there is big difference in different 40+ plastic balls). Opponent equipment also changed...

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  18. Music&Ping is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto
    I think that you are missing one key point. Those players were not the only factor that has changed over time. The ball is constantly changing (there is big difference in different 40+ plastic balls). Opponent equipment also changed...

    Who are you replying to ?


  19. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping

    Who are you replying to ?

    Plural second person, you as in people who posted in this thread.


  20. Music&Ping is offline
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    #20


    Thanks for the clarification ;-)
    Then I'd say that in the music industry many things have changed too since all went digital (could be a metaphor for the 40+ ball + opponents equipment), since... the roots of making, recording, mixing music and listening to it, the discrimination process that goes alongside, are always the same.

    The players are actually the MAIN factor, since they are not robots or any kind of machines, of course they'll feel something different with a different ball, but the process to solve the equation will always be the same.

    In the music industry for example, new compression algorithms inherited from the new digital standards (digital compressed files, digital market, and so on) have not changed the way people make music aka composing, improvising, where does the inspiration comes from !, of course their ears have to process a more discriminant analysis over those compression standard (the infamous mp3 for example), but still... the way we feel how we play, record, and mix ourselves is still the same.

    The new ball has brought a different discriminant analysis for the brain to process, but it's always the hand of the player that feels the ball first, in fact: everything is done in order to get the same feel as with the old cell ball.


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