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  1. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinay
    Not soft like vega europe. but a little easier to play than 50 degree.
    What of the rubbers above has the softest feeling or is the easiest to use of them?

    Get Jupiter 2 38 deg, it should be somewhere between 47.5 and 50 degrees. It's like 10$. Big Dipper is also like 14$. If you won't like them (Big Dipper is easier to use) you won't like any of the expensive shiny guns.

    Unless you play with a certain type of gear for an extended period of time, you will not be able to judge it, since you need to adapt your stroke to the gear. If you don't want that type of setback don't change gear. There is a high probability that you will not like a type of gear you don't know how to use it.

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Yasaka Rising Dragon and Shining Dragon are hybrids with softer sponges. I don't have precise numbers but I think Rising Dragon is around 48 and Shining Dragon around 46. I played with Rising shortly, it has big spin potential.

    Don't worry about the hardness only. I was often told that it is the harder rubbers that are harder to control, because they are faster. And ultimately, I think it's correct. But it so happened, that the different people who told it to me, didn't distinguish much between bouncy sponges and less or non-bouncy sponges. So, I could say e.g. Razanter R53 is too hard for me, but I should say, it is too bouncy or advanced for me to control. But e.g. Bluegrip C1/C2, which are harder on paper (ESN 60/55) were not.
    Yea Rising Dragon is 47 to 52 degrees (49.5 average) and Shining Dragon is 45 to 50 (47.5 average).

    Sponge hardness matters to some point but the topsheet hardness, overall feel and bouncyness are just as if not more important. Many rubbers can feel harder or softer than their sponge seems to indicate. In the case of traditional Chinese rubbers, their topsheet and sponge are so different than Euro/Japanese ones that comparing them based on their overall hardness alone is not an accurate comparison, they're so different. Even though my H3 Neo is 49 to 53 degrees ESN/Shore O, it certainly doesn't feel like it to me (feels more like 45-47).

  3. thomas.pong is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    Get Jupiter 2 38 deg, it should be somewhere between 47.5 and 50 degrees. It's like 10$. Big Dipper is also like 14$. If you won't like them (Big Dipper is easier to use) you won't like any of the expensive shiny guns.

    Unless you play with a certain type of gear for an extended period of time, you will not be able to judge it, since you need to adapt your stroke to the gear. If you don't want that type of setback don't change gear. There is a high probability that you will not like a type of gear you don't know how to use it.

    Yep! I think part of engaging that particular type of gear is a lot of wrist use on FH.

  4. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Yep! I think part of engaging that particular type of gear is a lot of wrist use on FH.



    My experience is quite different than that. I am recovering from a wrist injury and I try to limit its usage for now. It is quite difficult to explain. For me the biggest difference is on focusing what I am trying achieve. I focus on brushing the ball and not hitting the ball.


  5. latej is offline
    says Hips 1st
     
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Yea Rising Dragon is 47 to 52 degrees (49.5 average) and Shining Dragon is 45 to 50 (47.5 average).
    Yeah, it's possible. I can only say that Rising dragon felt softer than Rakza Z.

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Sponge hardness matters to some point but the topsheet hardness, overall feel and bouncyness are just as if not more important. Many rubbers can feel harder or softer than their sponge seems to indicate. In the case of traditional Chinese rubbers, their topsheet and sponge are so different than Euro/Japanese ones that comparing them based on their overall hardness alone is not an accurate comparison, they're so different. Even though my H3 Neo is 49 to 53 degrees ESN/Shore O, it certainly doesn't feel like it to me (feels more like 45-47).
    Absolutely. Top-sheet matters. The whole combo matters. I wrote it mainly to counter that fear of hard rubbers (>= 50)...

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  6. Tango K is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinay
    Are there hybrid rubbers with 47,5 degree sponge?

    If i remember correctly all of them have 50 degree and more. I guess this is to hard for me that’s why i asking for a softer one.

    Give it a bit of time. You’ll get used to it. I changed from Fastarc G-1 to Rakza Z on the backhand and it was a pain in the first couple of months but then I found out what’s got to be changed in the stroke. I was surprised that I killed a lot of balls by simply opening. Just be a bit more comfy in digging into the ball, you’ll be good.

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  7. Music&Ping is offline
    says Dis donc !!
     
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Yep! I think part of engaging that particular type of gear is a lot of wrist use on FH.

    Not enough at all: it's all about hips rotation, shoulder, upper body rotation, the wrist does not bring enough force. Europeans are lazy loopers, that's why they need bouncier tensor rubbers, that's why they were at the top of the world when it was 38mm cell ball with speed glue.


  8. thomas.pong is offline
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto



    My experience is quite different than that. I am recovering from a wrist injury and I try to limit its usage for now. It is quite difficult to explain. For me the biggest difference is on focusing what I am trying achieve. I focus on brushing the ball and not hitting the ball.

    I'm sorry to hear about your wrist injury, I wish you a speedy recovery.

    I think a lot of spin can be generated on FH without use of the wrist regardless of the types of rubbers you are using, and a Chinese tacky rubber will force you to use your body more in order to generate speed and spin regardless. On BH, the wrist is more necessary to generate spin, how are you coping with that at the moment?

    I'm also focusing on brushing the ball rather hitting it right now, definitely takes a lot of focus. For me, the wrist can help with that on FH when playing with a Chinese rubber, but I think it ultimately helps more with adding speed to the brush.

  9. thomas.pong is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping

    Not enough at all: it's all about hips rotation, shoulder, upper body rotation, the wrist does not bring enough force. Europeans are lazy loopers, that's why they need bouncier tensor rubbers, that's why they were at the top of the world when it was 38mm cell ball with speed glue.

    I never said it was enough... I said it was "part of it", it's the final touch really. I don't think I'd be able to generate much of anything if I was only using my wrist, especially on FH lol. I actually switched to using a Chinese rubber recently to become less of a "lazy" looper, not that I was necessarily lazy either, but to do more of what you listed. But I never really needed to use my wrist on FH with Euro/Japanese rubbers, whereas it's a good addition to the stroke with H3.
    Last edited by thomas.pong; 02-18-2021 at 03:55 PM.

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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Yeah, it's possible. I can only say that Rising dragon felt softer than Rakza Z.



    Absolutely. Top-sheet matters. The whole combo matters. I wrote it mainly to counter that fear of hard rubbers (>= 50)...
    Oh yeah, I totally got what you were getting at. I was adding the exact sponge hardness of the 2 rubbers, then agreeing with you and adding more to support your point.

    Here's Yasaka listing the hardness of these 2 rubbers:

    https://www.yasakajp.com/items/shining-dragon/
    https://www.yasakajp.com/items/rising-dragon/

  11. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    I'm sorry to hear about your wrist injury, I wish you a speedy recovery.

    I think a lot of spin can be generated on FH without use of the wrist regardless of the types of rubbers you are using, and a Chinese tacky rubber will force you to use your body more in order to generate speed and spin regardless. On BH, the wrist is more necessary to generate spin, how are you coping with that at the moment?

    I'm also focusing on brushing the ball rather hitting it right now, definitely takes a lot of focus. For me, the wrist can help with that on FH when playing with a Chinese rubber, but I think it ultimately helps more with adding speed to the brush.

    I worded it a bit incorrectly. I had damaged muscles and tendons (sry I am bad at physiology and anatomy, in Polish it is "ścięgno zginacz nadgarstka") that are attached to the wrist and it hurt when I moved the wrist. I am just very slowly easing back, not using muscles to move the wrist. I think the positive side of this negative event is that I was forced to use the body more. At this point I am just having fun and regaining agility and making the boll to the other side of the table.

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  12. Rinforzando is offline
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    #32
    Let me add my two cents. I think if you look just at the sponge hardness it doesn't mean anything. A 55 degree rubber doesn't mean it will have less control than a 47.5 one. For example, I'm playing atm with a Donic Bluegrip C2 which has a sponge hardness of 55 degree. It has a lot more control than a Rasanter R47 (for me at least) which has a sponge hardness of 47 degree.

    Why ? Because the Bluegrip C2 is more linear and it is less bouncy. So the C2 has a greater short game, greater potential on services... Also I don't feel the 55 hardness at all, probably because the topsheet is really soft. The topsheet + sponge combo is important; just looking at the sponge hardness doesn't mean anything. If you gave me the R47 and C2 without me knowing their hardness, it will be a difficult task for me to identify which one of the 2 rubbers has the hardest sponge. I believe that tacky chinese stuff and hybrid rubbers (C1/C2, DO9c, O7c...) helps you a lot developing a good technique. You don't rely on the tensor effect of the rubber, therefore you get what you put in term of power and you know exactly why you miss the shot when you did a mistake.

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    Last edited by Rinforzando; 02-18-2021 at 05:16 PM.

  13. zeio is offline
    says 快、準、狠、變、轉
     
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73

    Maybe a bit off topic, but I remember in the early 90s I played with a Donic hybrid rubber called "Shangri La". The topsheet was just as tacky as any Chinese rubber I have tested in recent years. You could pick up a ball with it for several seconds. I can't remember what the sponge was like, but probably very soft.

    Donic's first rubber that was OEMed in China with tacky topsheet(based on RITC 729 or Globe 999) and Japanese sponge for international market. For China, it was sold either as topsheet only or with Tianjin sponge.

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