A noobish question about the ball going beyond the table

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I had a chat with a more advanced player about playing with fast blades and bouncy rubbers and I am a bit confused if there are more ways to prevent the ball going too long beyond the table except my angle of the blade and the amount of topspin I create. Let's say a ball comes at me with substantial speed and plenty of topspin. If I want to counter it with a topspin without sending 2 meters beyond the table, the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball, especially with hybrid rubbers like Rakza Z and Dignics 09C. I think Dima mentioned in one of this review videos on Dignics 09C that he has to hold the blade parallel to the floor after changing to these rubbers.

I would be very grateful for some insights of playing with bouncy rubbers/fast blades and keeping the ball on the table.
 
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The actual info is, you can't do it if you don't have sufficient technique.

Post video footage and we will probably be able to tell you why you are having trouble keeping the ball from going long.

But, the other way of dealing with this is getting a blade and rubbers you actually can handle. Because what you are actually talking about only happens when you don't have the technique to handle the equipment you are using.
 
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For cases as such positioning yourself in the correct region with proper distance between the ball and racquet is most important.
 
lots of factors without seeing the video but they might be one or all:
1. too large of a swing.
2. open angle for a racket that needs a closed angle.
3. the type of shot made is not appropriate to the incoming spin.

All pertains to underdeveloped skills.
 
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That's why those rubbers have a soft topsheet with a hard sponge: it's up to you to engage the power you need for speed, so to "activate" the hard sponge, that's why their topsheet are softer: a harder topsheet would result in a dull, mushy rubber without any dynamism, but it has already been discussed everywhere on TTD when it comes to chinese-like rubbers.

 
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Thanks for the replies, but it was more a hypothetical question, I just noticed that Dignics 09C requires much more closed angle against heavier topspin, so I started wondering. Also, hitting the very top of the ball becomes a pure topsheet brushing action, how do you engage the sponge in such case?

it is because D09c behaves similar to a Chinese rubber that has less tackiness but is very bouncy and offers more speed. The amount of grip in the D09c topsheet ensures that you only need a not-so-open blade angle which you can concentrate more forward speed.

 
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Thanks for the replies, but it was more a hypothetical question, I just noticed that Dignics 09C requires much more closed angle against heavier topspin, so I started wondering. Also, hitting the very top of the ball becomes a pure topsheet brushing action, how do you engage the sponge in such case?

It’s quite the opposite. If you approach the ball straight on (open angle) then the thickness of the sponge is just 2mm, which is why you have to be careful in the opening loop, otherwise you “slap” the ball easily, and you can feel the wood coming in. If you approach the ball in angle (imagine you “slice” it), the thickness increases drastically, making it a lot easier to spin, especially if the ball has already got certain power to dip into that thickness.

If you are an Asian, it’s quite easy to imagine. In our cuisine, we often chop veg and fish in angle to make them appear bigger. 😎

The problem is if you want to “slice” the ball with speed, your contact has to be good, which brings you back to skills and feelings.

 
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Dpgr, the very first thing I could tell you to greatly help control and consistency is to make sure your grip at impact is very very loose. Make extra sure of that.

Loose grip at impact with a shorter but positive swing is a top secret of top players to control high speed and high spin balls.

Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk
 
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Dpgr, the very first thing I could tell you to greatly help control and consistency is to make sure your grip at impact is very very loose. Make extra sure of that.

Loose grip at impact with a shorter but positive swing is a top secret of top players to control high speed and high spin balls.

Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk
Very important.

Other thing that comes to mind is not to lift your elbow or tense your shoulder.

 
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If I want to counter it with a topspin without sending 2 meters beyond the table, the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball, especially with hybrid rubbers like Rakza Z and Dignics 09C.

You are making an assumption and leaving some things out.

The first thing that you are assuming is that you have to brush the ball a lot. However, this isn't true. If you just want to countertopspin, you don't have to do some kind of SUPER BRUSH type of shot. A loop drive will do fine. I think you are assuming that you need to spin the ball real hard on a countertopspin, which is why you said "the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball." However, this isn't true. You don't need to spin the ball real hard like you are looping underspin.

One variable that you are completely leaving out is your arm swing and it's start and end points. From my personal experience, if you raise the height of your start of your swing, you end up making your swing angle much more forwards and less upwards, and you can use much more open racket angles. Similar to closing your racket, swinging forward and through the ball is another way to bring your loop's trajectory lower and on to the table.

One thing you are leaving out is whether you were ready for counter or not. If you are simply reacting to a strong loop, it is unrealistic to think that you can perform a strong countertopspin right away. The best thing to do is probably block or lob until you are ready to do a counter.

Another thing that you are leaving out is the literal location of the ball. How high is the ball when it reaches you? How far away from the table is the ball when it reaches you? If you are ready to countertopspin from close to the table, you can catch the ball from a lower height and use a more open racket angle. If you are further away from the table, you can choose to wait for the ball to drop a bit so that you can use a more open racket angle. If you are forced to counter at the top of the bounce and the ball is quite high, you shouldn't be brushing that ball a lot. You should be swinging through the ball, and drive it down on to the table.

 
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Thanks so much everybody! I've made some notes so I won't forget the advices you gave. Got more info than I was looking for ;) Actually I was not referring to a real in-game situation - I was testing two blades (virtuoso off- with nexy karis m and a stiga rosewood with rakza Z) against quite heavy topspin by a robot. Sorry for misleading you by calling it a counterspin. I was keeping the start and end points of the arm swing almost in one line and noticed that a swing forward with a closed blade provides a very fast and spinny, super low and long ball just above the net, especially with rosewood and rakza Z . And it's very different than a similar hit with virtuoso and karis M. But as soon as I open the stiga blade just a little, the ball goes too long. Virtuoso with karis M is more forgivable (of course). So I wanted to know if there are any more tricks to keep the ball on the table with faster, more responsive blades/rubbers.

 
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One thing you are leaving out is whether you were ready for counter or not. If you are simply reacting to a strong loop, it is unrealistic to think that you can perform a strong countertopspin right away. The best thing to do is probably block or lob until you are ready to do a counter.

This is so true, I saw so many players thinking they can countertopspin every ball, sometimes you have no choice but accept to play passive and wait for a better moment.

 
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This is so true, I saw so many players thinking they can countertopspin every ball, sometimes you have no choice but accept to play passive and wait for a better moment.

Indeed. For a great example, watch videos of Vladimir Samsonov. He is perfectly content to play safe when he has to, which means sometimes he can regain the initiative later in the point. He never ever ever beats himself.

 
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Indeed. For a great example, watch videos of Vladimir Samsonov. He is perfectly content to play safe when he has to, which means sometimes he can regain the initiative later in the point. He never ever ever beats himself.

This is exactly how I've learned to beat supposedly better players than me who play it very safe, by playing safer myself, therefore not beating myself first and foremost, and beating them as a bonus.

 
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Have not read the other comments and did not really understood the question but i think you want to counterloop?I think many players have the wrong approach to this.Many proably decide beforehand and time wrong, some also want to kill the ball and do a big swing and time wrong and some just are too aggressive.I think it is better to think that block is the foundation and counterloop is just an extension of the block:With a big swing you often come to far with racket from the ball so it is hard with timing and the opponent will see the counterloop from miles away. Better to just go from the block, let the ball come close then just add a little. Safe and the opponent will not see it coming so easily. Timo Boll is really good at this. He never just block, always ad a little. Then of course if you see that this ball is easy then you can do more. So you should not decide beforehand.You could also try to hold the racket a little harder when they are looping hard to be able to use their power.I also think many players use the arm way to much when blocking forehand. Using the arm is not safe. Block more by moving the body is much more safe.I do not know how new you are as a player but many new players just think power and spin. A safe block with good placement can proably many times be just as good. And do not need to counterloop so hard, as long as there is some difference all the time.Edit: i forget this. I think it is good to think that if you just want to play a block it is important to take it early before it get high, but if you want to do a harder counterloop it is easier to attack it if you wait for the ball to go to the highest point.A video would proably be much more helpful for you. Good luck!
 
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Have not read the other comments and did not really understood the question but i think you want to counterloop?I think many players have the wrong approach to this.Many proably decide beforehand and time wrong, some also want to kill the ball and do a big swing and time wrong and some just are too aggressive.I think it is better to think that block is the foundation and counterloop is just an extension of the block:With a big swing you often come to far with racket from the ball so it is hard with timing and the opponent will see the counterloop from miles away. Better to just go from the block, let the ball come close then just add a little. Safe and the opponent will not see it coming so easily. Timo Boll is really good at this. He never just block, always ad a little. Then of course if you see that this ball is easy then you can do more. So you should not decide beforehand.You could also try to hold the racket a little harder when they are looping hard to be able to use their power.I also think many players use the arm way to much when blocking forehand. Using the arm is not safe. Block more by moving the body is much more safe.I do not know how new you are as a player but many new players just think power and spin. A safe block with good placement can proably many times be just as good. And do not need to counterloop so hard, as long as there is some difference all the time.Edit: i forget this. I think it is good to think that if you just want to play a block it is important to take it early before it get high, but if you want to do a harder counterloop it is easier to attack it if you wait for the ball to go to the highest point.A video would proably be much more helpful for you. Good luck!
This is really an excellent post.

 
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