Back to Forum
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 16 118
    doppelganger_LT's Avatar
    doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 118 16
    #1

    A noobish question about the ball going beyond the table

    I had a chat with a more advanced player about playing with fast blades and bouncy rubbers and I am a bit confused if there are more ways to prevent the ball going too long beyond the table except my angle of the blade and the amount of topspin I create. Let's say a ball comes at me with substantial speed and plenty of topspin. If I want to counter it with a topspin without sending 2 meters beyond the table, the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball, especially with hybrid rubbers like Rakza Z and Dignics 09C. I think Dima mentioned in one of this review videos on Dignics 09C that he has to hold the blade parallel to the floor after changing to these rubbers.

    I would be very grateful for some insights of playing with bouncy rubbers/fast blades and keeping the ball on the table.

  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 15,728 14,111
    UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
    UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 14,111 15,728
    #2
    The actual info is, you can't do it if you don't have sufficient technique.

    Post video footage and we will probably be able to tell you why you are having trouble keeping the ball from going long.

    But, the other way of dealing with this is getting a blade and rubbers you actually can handle. Because what you are actually talking about only happens when you don't have the technique to handle the equipment you are using.

    The Following User Likes UpSideDownCarl's Post:

    thomas.pong

    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

  3. mikaha21 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 1 8
    M
    mikaha21 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 8 1

    User Info Menu


    Jan 2021
    United States
    8
    1
    70
    Read 0 Reviews
    #3
    For cases as such positioning yourself in the correct region with proper distance between the ball and racquet is most important.

  4. yogi_bear is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,634 5,532
    yogi_bear's Avatar
    yogi_bear is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 5,532 2,634
    #4
    lots of factors without seeing the video but they might be one or all:
    1. too large of a swing.
    2. open angle for a racket that needs a closed angle.
    3. the type of shot made is not appropriate to the incoming spin.

    All pertains to underdeveloped skills.
    ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor at your service!

  5. doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 16 118
    doppelganger_LT's Avatar
    doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 118 16
    #5
    Thanks for the replies, but it was more a hypothetical question, I just noticed that Dignics 09C requires much more closed angle against heavier topspin, so I started wondering. Also, hitting the very top of the ball becomes a pure topsheet brushing action, how do you engage the sponge in such case?

  6. Music&Ping is offline
    says Dis donc !!
     
    Advanced TTD Member 171 259
    Music&Ping's Avatar
    Music&Ping is offline
    says Dis donc !!
     
    Advanced TTD Member 259 171
    #6


    That's why those rubbers have a soft topsheet with a hard sponge: it's up to you to engage the power you need for speed, so to "activate" the hard sponge, that's why their topsheet are softer: a harder topsheet would result in a dull, mushy rubber without any dynamism, but it has already been discussed everywhere on TTD when it comes to chinese-like rubbers.


  7. yogi_bear is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,634 5,532
    yogi_bear's Avatar
    yogi_bear is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 5,532 2,634
    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger_LT
    Thanks for the replies, but it was more a hypothetical question, I just noticed that Dignics 09C requires much more closed angle against heavier topspin, so I started wondering. Also, hitting the very top of the ball becomes a pure topsheet brushing action, how do you engage the sponge in such case?

    it is because D09c behaves similar to a Chinese rubber that has less tackiness but is very bouncy and offers more speed. The amount of grip in the D09c topsheet ensures that you only need a not-so-open blade angle which you can concentrate more forward speed.

    The Following User Likes yogi_bear's Post:

    doppelganger_LT, thomas.pong

    ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor at your service!

  8. Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 232 348
    T
    Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 348 232

    User Info Menu


    Jan 2020
    UK
    348
    232
    992
    Read 0 Reviews
    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger_LT
    Thanks for the replies, but it was more a hypothetical question, I just noticed that Dignics 09C requires much more closed angle against heavier topspin, so I started wondering. Also, hitting the very top of the ball becomes a pure topsheet brushing action, how do you engage the sponge in such case?

    It’s quite the opposite. If you approach the ball straight on (open angle) then the thickness of the sponge is just 2mm, which is why you have to be careful in the opening loop, otherwise you “slap” the ball easily, and you can feel the wood coming in. If you approach the ball in angle (imagine you “slice” it), the thickness increases drastically, making it a lot easier to spin, especially if the ball has already got certain power to dip into that thickness.

    If you are an Asian, it’s quite easy to imagine. In our cuisine, we often chop veg and fish in angle to make them appear bigger. 😎

    The problem is if you want to “slice” the ball with speed, your contact has to be good, which brings you back to skills and feelings.

    The Following User Likes Tango K's Post:

    doppelganger_LT, Kuba Hajto


  9. Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 10,801 10,486
    Der_Echte's Avatar
    Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 10,486 10,801

    User Info Menu

    #9
    Dpgr, the very first thing I could tell you to greatly help control and consistency is to make sure your grip at impact is very very loose. Make extra sure of that.

    Loose grip at impact with a shorter but positive swing is a top secret of top players to control high speed and high spin balls.

    Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk

    The Following 2 Users Like Der_Echte's Post:

    doppelganger_LT and Tango K

    Last edited by Der_Echte; 02-18-2021 at 05:54 PM.
    President, Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club. Hit us up on TTD or Facebook
    http://www.facebook.com/koreaforeignttc

    Janitor at NexyUSA TT Equipment Shop
    http://www.nexyusa.com

    View our Lame Nexy USA corporate FB page
    http://www.facebook.com/nexyusa

  10. Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 10,801 10,486
    Der_Echte's Avatar
    Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 10,486 10,801

    User Info Menu

    #10
    The loose grip vs high energy balls works so well some say it should be illegal.

    Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk

    The Following User Likes Der_Echte's Post:

    doppelganger_LT

    President, Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club. Hit us up on TTD or Facebook
    http://www.facebook.com/koreaforeignttc

    Janitor at NexyUSA TT Equipment Shop
    http://www.nexyusa.com

    View our Lame Nexy USA corporate FB page
    http://www.facebook.com/nexyusa

  11. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 758 1,608
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,608 758
    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Dpgr, the very first thing I could tell you to greatly help control and consistency is to make sure your grip at impact is very very loose. Make extra sure of that.

    Loose grip at impact with a shorter but positive swing is a top secret of top players to control high speed and high spin balls.

    Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk
    Very important.

    Other thing that comes to mind is not to lift your elbow or tense your shoulder.

    The Following User Likes thomas.pong's Post:

    doppelganger_LT

    Last edited by thomas.pong; 02-19-2021 at 04:00 PM.

  12. Baal is offline
    says Ba'al has spoken
     
    Master TTD Member 5,864 3,507
    B
    Baal is offline
    says Ba'al has spoken
     
    Master TTD Member 3,507 5,864

    User Info Menu


    Nov 2010
    3,507
    5,864
    15832
    Read 8 Reviews
    #12
    Aim lower. I know it sounds overly simplistic. It solves the problem. Don't think about your mechanics, think about where you are trying to hit the ball.

    The Following 2 Users Like Baal's Post:

    doppelganger_LT and latej


  13. songdavid98 is offline
    says it's not practice if there's no counterattacking
     
    Advanced TTD Member 706 455
    songdavid98's Avatar
    songdavid98 is offline
    says it's not practice if there's no counterattacking
     
    Advanced TTD Member 455 706
    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger_LT
    If I want to counter it with a topspin without sending 2 meters beyond the table, the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball, especially with hybrid rubbers like Rakza Z and Dignics 09C.

    You are making an assumption and leaving some things out.

    The first thing that you are assuming is that you have to brush the ball a lot. However, this isn't true. If you just want to countertopspin, you don't have to do some kind of SUPER BRUSH type of shot. A loop drive will do fine. I think you are assuming that you need to spin the ball real hard on a countertopspin, which is why you said "the only way seems to close the blade completely and brush the very top of the ball." However, this isn't true. You don't need to spin the ball real hard like you are looping underspin.

    One variable that you are completely leaving out is your arm swing and it's start and end points. From my personal experience, if you raise the height of your start of your swing, you end up making your swing angle much more forwards and less upwards, and you can use much more open racket angles. Similar to closing your racket, swinging forward and through the ball is another way to bring your loop's trajectory lower and on to the table.

    One thing you are leaving out is whether you were ready for counter or not. If you are simply reacting to a strong loop, it is unrealistic to think that you can perform a strong countertopspin right away. The best thing to do is probably block or lob until you are ready to do a counter.

    Another thing that you are leaving out is the literal location of the ball. How high is the ball when it reaches you? How far away from the table is the ball when it reaches you? If you are ready to countertopspin from close to the table, you can catch the ball from a lower height and use a more open racket angle. If you are further away from the table, you can choose to wait for the ball to drop a bit so that you can use a more open racket angle. If you are forced to counter at the top of the bounce and the ball is quite high, you shouldn't be brushing that ball a lot. You should be swinging through the ball, and drive it down on to the table.

    The Following 5 Users Like songdavid98's Post:

    Baal, doppelganger_LT and 3 others

    Always go forward

  14. doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 16 118
    doppelganger_LT's Avatar
    doppelganger_LT is offline
    says :( + T T = :)
     
    Established TTD Member 118 16
    #14

    Thanks so much everybody! I've made some notes so I won't forget the advices you gave. Got more info than I was looking for Actually I was not referring to a real in-game situation - I was testing two blades (virtuoso off- with nexy karis m and a stiga rosewood with rakza Z) against quite heavy topspin by a robot. Sorry for misleading you by calling it a counterspin. I was keeping the start and end points of the arm swing almost in one line and noticed that a swing forward with a closed blade provides a very fast and spinny, super low and long ball just above the net, especially with rosewood and rakza Z . And it's very different than a similar hit with virtuoso and karis M. But as soon as I open the stiga blade just a little, the ball goes too long. Virtuoso with karis M is more forgivable (of course). So I wanted to know if there are any more tricks to keep the ball on the table with faster, more responsive blades/rubbers.


  15. davidzhang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 31 63
    davidzhang's Avatar
    davidzhang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 63 31

    User Info Menu


    Jul 2013
    China
    63
    31
    142
    Read 0 Reviews
    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    The loose grip vs high energy balls works so well some say it should be illegal.

    Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk

    You are giving too much information, please don't share the secret 😆

    The Following User Likes davidzhang's Post:

    thomas.pong


  16. davidzhang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 31 63
    davidzhang's Avatar
    davidzhang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 63 31

    User Info Menu


    Jul 2013
    China
    63
    31
    142
    Read 0 Reviews
    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98


    One thing you are leaving out is whether you were ready for counter or not. If you are simply reacting to a strong loop, it is unrealistic to think that you can perform a strong countertopspin right away. The best thing to do is probably block or lob until you are ready to do a counter.

    This is so true, I saw so many players thinking they can countertopspin every ball, sometimes you have no choice but accept to play passive and wait for a better moment.

    The Following 2 Users Like davidzhang's Post:

    jammmail and thomas.pong


  17. Baal is offline
    says Ba'al has spoken
     
    Master TTD Member 5,864 3,507
    B
    Baal is offline
    says Ba'al has spoken
     
    Master TTD Member 3,507 5,864

    User Info Menu


    Nov 2010
    3,507
    5,864
    15832
    Read 8 Reviews
    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by davidzhang

    This is so true, I saw so many players thinking they can countertopspin every ball, sometimes you have no choice but accept to play passive and wait for a better moment.

    Indeed. For a great example, watch videos of Vladimir Samsonov. He is perfectly content to play safe when he has to, which means sometimes he can regain the initiative later in the point. He never ever ever beats himself.

    The Following 2 Users Like Baal's Post:

    jammmail and thomas.pong


  18. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 758 1,608
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,608 758
    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal

    Indeed. For a great example, watch videos of Vladimir Samsonov. He is perfectly content to play safe when he has to, which means sometimes he can regain the initiative later in the point. He never ever ever beats himself.

    This is exactly how I've learned to beat supposedly better players than me who play it very safe, by playing safer myself, therefore not beating myself first and foremost, and beating them as a bonus.

    The Following User Likes thomas.pong's Post:

    jammmail


  19. Lula is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,319 1,569
    L
    Lula is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,569 1,319

    User Info Menu


    Oct 2016
    Sweden
    1,569
    1,319
    4440
    Read 0 Reviews
    #19
    Have not read the other comments and did not really understood the question but i think you want to counterloop?I think many players have the wrong approach to this.Many proably decide beforehand and time wrong, some also want to kill the ball and do a big swing and time wrong and some just are too aggressive.I think it is better to think that block is the foundation and counterloop is just an extension of the block:With a big swing you often come to far with racket from the ball so it is hard with timing and the opponent will see the counterloop from miles away. Better to just go from the block, let the ball come close then just add a little. Safe and the opponent will not see it coming so easily. Timo Boll is really good at this. He never just block, always ad a little. Then of course if you see that this ball is easy then you can do more. So you should not decide beforehand.You could also try to hold the racket a little harder when they are looping hard to be able to use their power.I also think many players use the arm way to much when blocking forehand. Using the arm is not safe. Block more by moving the body is much more safe.I do not know how new you are as a player but many new players just think power and spin. A safe block with good placement can proably many times be just as good. And do not need to counterloop so hard, as long as there is some difference all the time.Edit: i forget this. I think it is good to think that if you just want to play a block it is important to take it early before it get high, but if you want to do a harder counterloop it is easier to attack it if you wait for the ball to go to the highest point.A video would proably be much more helpful for you. Good luck!

    The Following 2 Users Like Lula's Post:

    thomas.pong and UpSideDownCarl

    Last edited by Lula; 02-21-2021 at 11:26 AM.

  20. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 15,728 14,111
    UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
    UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 14,111 15,728
    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    Have not read the other comments and did not really understood the question but i think you want to counterloop?I think many players have the wrong approach to this.Many proably decide beforehand and time wrong, some also want to kill the ball and do a big swing and time wrong and some just are too aggressive.I think it is better to think that block is the foundation and counterloop is just an extension of the block:With a big swing you often come to far with racket from the ball so it is hard with timing and the opponent will see the counterloop from miles away. Better to just go from the block, let the ball come close then just add a little. Safe and the opponent will not see it coming so easily. Timo Boll is really good at this. He never just block, always ad a little. Then of course if you see that this ball is easy then you can do more. So you should not decide beforehand.You could also try to hold the racket a little harder when they are looping hard to be able to use their power.I also think many players use the arm way to much when blocking forehand. Using the arm is not safe. Block more by moving the body is much more safe.I do not know how new you are as a player but many new players just think power and spin. A safe block with good placement can proably many times be just as good. And do not need to counterloop so hard, as long as there is some difference all the time.Edit: i forget this. I think it is good to think that if you just want to play a block it is important to take it early before it get high, but if you want to do a harder counterloop it is easier to attack it if you wait for the ball to go to the highest point.A video would proably be much more helpful for you. Good luck!
    This is really an excellent post.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Create a new Topic:
Title is required.