Back to Forum
Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 146
  1. zeio is offline
    says 快、準、狠、變、轉
     
    Master TTD Member 7,565 5,339
    zeio's Avatar
    zeio is offline
    says 快、準、狠、變、轉
     
    Master TTD Member 5,339 7,565

    User Info Menu


    Jan 2018
    PNG
    5,339
    7,565
    21309
    Read 0 Reviews
    #41
    That's why I feel so bad for the guy who started that thread on MyTT a decade ago. That's the cost of raw materials only. Labor, distribution, marketing, depreciation of machinery, administrative expenses...

    The Following User Likes zeio's Post:

    thomas.pong

    Race for Tokyo 2020+1 - Women's Top 11, Japan
    Time capsules - 2020, 2024, 2028

  2. Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 232 349
    T
    Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 349 232

    User Info Menu


    Jan 2020
    UK
    349
    232
    992
    Read 0 Reviews
    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    The cost probably is dictated by:


    • Money employees make
    • Very costly equipment.

    I can only imagine how much these scientists make, and from what I know custom-made scientific-grade equipment price is sky-high. As far as I know some of the forum members are scientists, dunno if they are in similar fields though. The scientists I know personally earn upwards of 7k$/m (it is a lot in my country, they work in an industry connected to rubber) and probably rubber verification will take them more than 14 days, and the rubber will pass through more than 3-4 pairs of hands. There is probably a lot of one-of measurement devices in play also (and they can cost x xxx xxx$).

    It is what it is. You have a choice. I would not complain and maybe buy rubbers in bulk when they are discounted.

    Love zeio data. he's always been having a lot. Of course rubber price has a big impact on ESN's bottom line, considering that profit is always only a fraction of sale. But we probably need more cost breakdown to see how much of rubber price is in the whole price.

    Rubber technologies have been changing drastically relatively to those of blades. That trendy inner technology may sound fancy but it's been there decades ago. And it's just basically swapping around the layers. I still remember Sriver and Bryce. Miles difference. R&D is costly and RISKY. You pay a lot and sometimes you get nothing. So you need even more profit to make it worthwhile. Nothing dodgy in that.

    As a bargain hunter, I don't buy Butterfly products either. But I do admire their quality, quite ahead of competitors, and their effort to keep that gap, keep innovating.

    There is a big cost that diminishes the Chinese's advantages in European markets - distribution/retails. In China, $5 difference means 1/2 the price. In Europe, distribution/retails cost is so high nobody cares that much about $5. $35 or $40 is kinda the same. I don't have anything to back me up but it's reasonable to assume that that cost in table tennis is even higher than other popular sports like badmington/tennis due to a smaller market.
    (Again, it's fair for a family run table tennis shop in the UK to take more profit margin than Decathlon. Because having a much smaller market, they are taking much more risk. We should appreciate that).

    The Following User Likes Tango K's Post:

    thomas.pong


  3. olzetezkarzo is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 44 133
    O
    olzetezkarzo is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 133 44

    User Info Menu


    Apr 2019
    Aaland
    133
    44
    287
    Read 0 Reviews
    #43
    do you think butterfly could sponsor all of these players if they charged 40 for dignics and say 100 for mizutani superzlc?
    https://butterflyonline.com/we-are-butterfly/players/

    The Following 2 Users Like olzetezkarzo's Post:

    Kuba Hajto and thomas.pong

    Last edited by olzetezkarzo; 02-18-2021 at 03:44 PM.

  4. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #44
    That’s a very good point.
    Who says they have to be sponsored.
    Lets stop buying the products and see how many will still be sponsored.

  5. olzetezkarzo is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 44 133
    O
    olzetezkarzo is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 133 44

    User Info Menu


    Apr 2019
    Aaland
    133
    44
    287
    Read 0 Reviews
    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    That’s a very good point.
    Who says they have to be sponsored.
    Lets stop buying the products and see how many will still be sponsored.

    I think butterfly will always be expensive.
    They are the ferrari of table tennis.
    It's supposed to be expensive and exclusive!

    With that said, I don't think there's that many people using butterfly (except pro players).
    In europe the typical player I saw was using a basic 5 ply like donic waldner senso v1 with maybe tibhar evolution both sides, and that's it.
    There was maybe 1 or 2 using viscaria with tenergy, the real ejs.... in a club of 10.

    The Following User Likes olzetezkarzo's Post:

    Takkyu_wa_inochi

    Last edited by olzetezkarzo; 02-18-2021 at 04:44 PM.

  6. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #46
    Not Ferrari, Mercedes maybe.
    I know several Bty users. Most of them have been using Tenergy for a long time...

  7. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Not Ferrari, Mercedes maybe.I know several Bty users. Most of them have been using Tenergy for a long time...
    My club has a discount program with the main Butterfly distributor in France and I'm in charge of purchasing material and equipment for the club and members from them and also other store partners.

    We have -15% (more on clothing and tables) on all Butterfly blades and rubbers except Tenergy and Dignics (-10%).

    Having direct communication with the manager, he explained to me something I already expected, that the profit margin on Tenergy and Dignics was very low, and he'd rather sell a sheet of Sriver or Rozena where the profit is much higher (you'll often see Rozena at -10€ like it is currently on sale, because they can, whereas they can't afford to with Tenergy and Dignics).

    The R&D, cost and marketing of making these high-end rubbers is very high, especially for Butterfly who makes everything in-house unlike other brands who go through ESN and others. The cost of older products like Sriver, or products like Rozena (which was an offshoot of the R&D done for Tenergy) is low, and the marketing is low as well since there's no sponsoring attached to these products.

    Marketing and sponsorship is an important cost as it drives sales and gives you the edge over your competitors. Even if the margins are lowered, you gotta keep that edge. Also, sponsorship is what allows the pros we like to watch to make a decent living, and the sport to grow.

    Finally, not all Butterfly products are expensive and there are also plenty very good cheaper alternatives from other brands, like you mentioned Rakza 7 (ESN), for example. You don't have to like their prices, but it's important to keep things in perspective and not rail on them, because their margins are low and there are good reasons why (factories, machinery, repairs, overhead costs, staff, Made in Japan/Germany/Sweden, distribution, R&D, marketing, sponsorship, middle men...).

    The Following 2 Users Like thomas.pong's Post:

    Takkyu_wa_inochi and Tango K

    Last edited by thomas.pong; 02-18-2021 at 05:56 PM.

  8. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #48
    Marketing and sponsorship, there you go...
    and I don’t believe everything I’m told...

  9. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Marketing and sponsorship, there you go...
    and I don’t believe everything I’m told...
    I don't think you should believe everything you're told, but there is such thing as market logics as many have explained and backed up, we don't have to like it but it is a reality. It's hard for a manufacturer to function and maintain alive if they don't do things a certain way.

    Props to Japanese TT brands for mostly producing in Japan/Germany/Sweden, European brands for producing a lot in Europe etc.

    The Following 2 Users Like thomas.pong's Post:

    SamTheMan and Takkyu_wa_inochi


  10. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #50
    Sure and the way to do something about that is to vote with your feet...

    In this context that means buy something else...

    The Following User Likes Lazer's Post:

    Takkyu_wa_inochi


  11. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Sure and the way to do something about that is to vote with your feet...

    In this context that means buy something else...
    If you have a problem with it, sure and absolutely!

    I mostly buy my blades used and I'm very happy with my 60€ Viscaria, my 16€ sheet of H3... and my 54€ sheet of Tenergy lol.

    The Following User Likes thomas.pong's Post:

    Takkyu_wa_inochi


  12. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #52
    The cheapest Tenergy I’ve seen is €75.
    And there’s gotta be something wrong when your product is twice the price compared to the second most expensive, and not that much better. They may have the best product by not by much...

  13. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    The cheapest Tenergy I’ve seen is €75.
    And there’s gotta be something wrong when your product is twice the price compared to the second most expensive, and not that much better. They may have the best product by not by much...
    It's 60€ in France then I get 10% off of that.

    Which rubber do you refer to as being the second most expensive?
    Last edited by thomas.pong; 02-18-2021 at 07:24 PM.

  14. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 545 1,248
    K
    Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,248 545
    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    It's 60€ in France then I get 10% off that.

    Which rubber do you refer to as being the second most expensive?

    In Poland it is 57.87€ in official distribution, and 45€ when bought from players (new, square, sealed, often with proof of original sale).

    The Following User Likes Kuba Hajto's Post:

    thomas.pong


  15. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #55
    Top of the line Yasaka, Tibhar, Tsp, Victas, Gewo, Donic. etc etc.

    Thats gotta be compared to Bty top of the line Dignics 09c which is €95 here...
    Last edited by Lazer; 02-18-2021 at 07:10 PM.

  16. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    In Poland it is 57.87€ in official distribution, and 45€ when bought from players (new, square, sealed, often with proof of original sale).

    Yea, it's also 45€ shipping included in France when bought from players sealed.

  17. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Top of the line Yasaka, Tibhar, Tsp, Victas, Gewo, Donic. etc etc.

    Thats gotta be compared to Bty to op of the line Dignics 09c which is €95 here...
    We were talking Tenergy...

    Xiom Omega VII Tour: 70€, others: 58€
    Andro Rasanter R53/48: 60€, R50/47...: 50€
    Tibhar Evolution MX-P 50: 50€
    Victas V>15 Extra: 50€
    Donic Bluegrip: 50€
    Joola Rhyzer: 50€
    Stiga DNA: 50€
    etc.

    Not that much cheaper and they don't even manufacture them themselves, do full R&D, sponsor that much...
    Last edited by thomas.pong; 02-18-2021 at 07:25 PM.

  18. thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 744 1,587
    thomas.pong's Avatar
    thomas.pong is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,587 744
    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Top of the line Yasaka, Tibhar, Tsp, Victas, Gewo, Donic. etc etc.

    Thats gotta be compared to Bty top of the line Dignics 09c which is €95 here...
    Ok, but there are no rubber comparable to Dignics 09C yet.

    Rakza Z and PK50 are good, but nowhere close.

    Maybe a boosted H3 National Blue Sponge?

  19. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 545 1,248
    K
    Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,248 545
    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Xiom Omega VII Tour: 70€, others: 58€
    Andro Rasanter R53/48: 60€, R50/47...: 50€
    Tibhar Evolution MX-P 50: 50€
    Victas V>15 Extra: 50€
    Donic Bluegrip: 50€
    Joola Rhyzer: 50€
    Stiga DNA: 50€
    ...

    Not that much cheaper and they don't even manufacture them themselves, do full R&D, sponsor that much...

    You forgot Gewo El Pro, in my country they are about 25-30€
    Evolution series is about 35-40€ (my club has a discount, coach is/used to be Tibhar player)
    OVIIPro 35€, Euro 40€, Tour 50€, Asia 35€

    The Following User Likes Kuba Hajto's Post:

    thomas.pong


  20. Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 79 183
    L
    Lazer is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Established TTD Member 183 79
    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    We were talking Tenergy...

    Xiom Omega VII Tour: 70€, others: 58€
    Andro Rasanter R53/48: 60€, R50/47...: 50€
    Tibhar Evolution MX-P 50: 50€
    Victas V>15 Extra: 50€
    Donic Bluegrip: 50€
    Joola Rhyzer: 50€
    Stiga DNA: 50€
    etc.

    Not that much cheaper and they don't even manufacture them themselves, do full R&D, sponsor that much...
    I just bought MXP’s for €39 and Im sure I get most of the rest got the same price and that’s from my own country...

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Create a new Topic:
Title is required.