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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by olzetezkarzo

    when you buy adidas or nike where do you think they make that stuff?
    in china mostly....sometimes vietnam or similar places but mostly china.
    it's not like you are buying a product made in "the western world".

    Don't forget about Mexico (music instruments). Of course, but when the products are for Western companies and exported they are the real thing, when You buy the same product in China it's more often then not a fake, of course much cheaper. Also when You are ordering online from China You expose Yourself to a big risk of getting something fake.

    And a Chinese product made by a Chinese company are often of varied quality. So of those cheap chinese blades some may be OK but many are pure garbage.

    When it comes to cheap consumables it does not matter if You get a few duds. To me rubbers are just this, where a blade is not.

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    #22
    Blame the US. The entire world is paying the price for its greed.

    The madness started when the price of natural rubber started shooting up like there's no tomorrow after the financial crisis of 2007-2008, that even ESN admitted they felt the squeeze. Butterfly had to increase the price of their blades and rubbers because the US and Japan printed so much money, AKA quantitative easing(QE), which actually stands for currency manipulation of the 1st world countries to keep the dollar and yen low. Ironically, QE is a Japanese invention in the name of stimulating the economy and growth.

    The price of natural rubber and crude oil from which synthetic rubber is derived has gone down in the last few years but manufacturers are playing dumb.

    I feel bad for the dude who made a thread warning people on MyTT a decade ago.

    The ITTF is also to blame.

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    Last edited by zeio; 02-18-2021 at 12:10 PM.
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Blame the US. The entire world is paying the price for its greed.

    The madness started when the price of natural rubber started shooting up like there's no tomorrow after the financial crisis of 2007-2008, that even ESN admitted they felt the squeeze. Butterfly had to increase the price of their blades and rubbers because the US and Japan printed so much money, AKA quantitative easing(QE), which actually stands for currency manipulation of the 1st world countries.

    The price of natural rubber and crude oil from which synthetic rubber is derived has gone down in the last few years but manufacturers are playing dumb.

    I feel bad for the dude who made a thread warning people on MyTT a decade ago.

    The ITTF is also to blame.
    Actually, already when I competed in the mid 70's I remember the equipment being very expensive. Of course I was 12-13 years old then an had a different view on what money was worth. I do remember the whole package as being expensive, but I cant separate the parts...

    I looked at the ITTF thread You posted. $3000 a year (if correct), that's nothing really. Think of how much the worlwide sales must be...

    Last edited by Lazer; 02-18-2021 at 12:13 PM.

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    #24

    Ask the manufacturer why there are such prices.
    Ask the sellers why there are such prices.
    Absolutely useless discussion.

    dhs-729.eu

  5. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Actually, already when I competed in the mid 70's I remember the equipment being very expensive. Of course I was 12-13 years old then an had a different view on what money was worth. I do remember the whole package as being expensive, but I cant separate the parts...

    I looked at the ITTF thread You posted. $3000 a year (if correct), that's nothing really. Think of how much the worlwide sales must be...

    It is 6000$, and it is not fee payed for testing the rubber. It is the price ONLY for keeping the rubber on the LARC if this thread is to be trusted (https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=35167). I can imagine that initial fee would be close to 25-50k $. I have no proof for that though. It is pure speculation based on the price to keep the rubber on the list.

    I would love if some shop posted how much of certain rubber is sold annually. But I would imagine that rubbers that are not Tenergy 05 maybe sell 1000 sheets per year. Add to that manufacturer need to keep stock of the rubbers. Igorponger claimed that each hardness variety will have to be approved differently. The rubber production yield is not 100%. Add taxes to that. There is a lot of hidden costs.

    Going back to Ferrari they kinda are consumables. They are very expensive to maintain. Going back to tires. For my particular car I can for example get Barum Bravuris which would run me about 200$ (an option resembling Palio AK47 in this conversation), Nokian PowerProof which I payed 600$ for (ESN rubber equivalent in this conversation) or Michelin Pilot Sport 4 which run me about 1000$ (Dignics or Tenergy equivalent in this conversation). 235/35R19. I have run breavuris and the car was driving no problem, but when pushed a bit it felt horrible, and on wet it was nightmare. They also had terrible rolling resistance (0.5L / 100km difference). Now I run Powerproofs and they are ideal for my needs. I don't take my car to the circuit so Michelins would be a waste of money in my case.

    The tires are the same diameter. Probably similar materials and yet due to different build technology and quality they feel different. Powerproofs are much stiffer in the corners and have lower rolling resistance. That is what I am paying for. Technology allowed lower rolling resistance and having higher grip. Those properties are an opposite of each other...

    If someone spends tons of money on research to get ideal properties. You either take their offering or you are satisfied with other cheaper worse offerings. And as in my case, I am totally satisfied with a cheaper and objectively worse technology, because that is all I can utilise.

    EDIT: Back to the TT rubbers topic, AK47, Sanwei Gear Hyper 2.0 (yogi posted review on this forum), DHS Tin Arc, Focus 3 Snipe, Battle 1

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    Last edited by Kuba Hajto; 02-18-2021 at 12:47 PM.

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    #26
    Like what I said in an earlier post "corruption" is the only reason it would be so expensive.

    The Ferrari is not a consumable, You don't get a new one each Year (Well some people do but most of us don't). The tires are kind of like I said....
    Tires are of a similar material, but the cost/kilogrram is much cheaper...

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    #27
    I’m speculating here but Rubber/Oil price is probably not a great deal. A lot of Chinese rubbers are sold very cheaply in Asia. So fixed costs probably play a lot more. (Chinese rubbers have less fixed cost per piece since they have a much bigger market and also much lower distribution/retail costs.)

    ESN rubbers have a gap in price with old-style ones. So that implies either ESN takes a big cut and/or they manage the prices. (The latter is most likely done through pricing & implicit agreements as bunch of competition rules in Europe would prohibit ESN to do it contractually.) ESN and Butterfly are certainly duopoly in the market.

    Again, all these are my speculation.

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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    I’m speculating here but Rubber/Oil price is probably not a great deal. A lot of Chinese rubbers are sold very cheaply in Asia. So fixed costs probably play a lot more. (Chinese rubbers have less fixed cost per piece since they have a much bigger market and also much lower distribution/retail costs.)

    ESN rubbers have a gap in price with old-style ones. So that implies either ESN takes a big cut and/or they manage the prices. (The latter is most likely done through pricing & implicit agreements as bunch of competition rules in Europe would prohibit ESN to do it contractually.) ESN and Butterfly are certainly duopoly in the market.

    Again, all these are my speculation.
    I hear You, and there in their own little cartel...

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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Like what I said in an earlier post "corruption" is the only reason it would be so expensive.

    The Ferrari is not a consumable, You don't get a new one each Year (Well some people do but most of us don't). The tires are kind of like I said....
    Tires are of a similar material, but the cost/kilogrram is much cheaper...

    There is nothing to do with whether one thing is consumable or not. In markets like colour printers, producers can take less profit from printers and more from inks because there is a lock-on effect. It’s not there in blade/rubber market. Both are independently competitive.

    There is no “corruption” either. Again, price is NOT determined by whether one thing is consumable or not eventhough as a consumer we wish so, that long-lasting stuff costs more and consumable stuff costs less. Price is determined by economics factors (cost, demand etc.)

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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K

    There is nothing to do with whether one thing is consumable or not. In markets like colour printers, producers can take less profit from printers and more from inks because there is a lock-on effect. It’s not there in blade/rubber market. Both are independently competitive.

    There is no “corruption” either. Again, price is NOT determined by whether one thing is consumable or not eventhough as a consumer we wish so, that long-lasting stuff costs more and consumable stuff costs less. Price is determined by economics factors (cost, demand etc.)

    Actually You are wrong here. To me the price picture matters a lot more on consumables, and I don't think I am different from most people here. I can tell You that I absolutely will not buy anymore Bty rubbers but I may buy another blade.

    A Cartel or as You call it a duopoly that decides prices between them is very much corrupted.
    Last edited by Lazer; 02-18-2021 at 01:14 PM.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    I hear You, and there in their own little cartel...

    They don’t have to be a cartel. Unlikely they are. It’s just economics forces naturally drive them to do so. Butterfly can’t price things too high or too low due to demand. ESN has to keep price reasonably lower than Butterfly so it has to track it’s competitor. It happens everywhere in all sort of markets. If one of them is too aggressive, they make a war and can be driven to loss-making, even bankruptcy very quickly. Faster than you think. Again, it’s happens quite regularly in other markets.

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    Last edited by Tango K; 02-18-2021 at 01:19 PM.

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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K

    They don’t have to be a cartel. Unlikely they are. It’s just economics forces naturally drive them to do so. Butterfly can’t price things too high or too low due to demand. ESN has to keep price reasonably lower than Butterfly so it has to track it’s competitor. It happens everywhere in all sort of markets. If one of them is too aggressive, they make a war and can be driven to loss-making, even bankruptcy very quickly. Faster than you think. Again, it’s happening quite regularly.

    Thats why I posted earlier:
    The proper thing to do would be to use Chinese rubbers made in China so that the Japanese and European manufacturers would have to lower the prices 😀.

    Unfortunately there are very few "Euro" style non sticky ones made in china....


  13. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Like what I said in an earlier post "corruption" is the only reason it would be so expensive.

    The Ferrari is not a consumable, You don't get a new one each Year (Well some people do but most of us don't). The tires are kind of like I said....
    Tires are of a similar material, but the cost/kilogrram is much cheaper...

    The cost probably is dictated by:


    • Money employees make
    • Very costly equipment.

    I can only imagine how much these scientists make, and from what I know custom-made scientific-grade equipment price is sky-high. As far as I know some of the forum members are scientists, dunno if they are in similar fields though. The scientists I know personally earn upwards of 7k$/m (it is a lot in my country, they work in an industry connected to rubber) and probably rubber verification will take them more than 14 days, and the rubber will pass through more than 3-4 pairs of hands. There is probably a lot of one-of measurement devices in play also (and they can cost x xxx xxx$).

    It is what it is. You have a choice. I would not complain and maybe buy rubbers in bulk when they are discounted.

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    The cost probably is dictated by:


    • Money employees make
    • Very costly equipment.

    I can only imagine how much these scientists make, and from what I know custom-made scientific-grade equipment price is sky-high. As far as I know some of the forum members are scientists, dunno if they are in similar fields though. The scientists I know personally earn upwards of 7k$/m (it is a lot in my country, they work in an industry connected to rubber) and probably rubber verification will take them more than 14 days, and the rubber will pass through more than 3-4 pairs of hands. There is probably a lot of one-of measurement devices in play also (and they can cost x xxx xxx$).

    It is what it is. You have a choice. I would not complain and maybe buy rubbers in bulk when they are discounted.
    I'm sorry but I watched the butterfly rubber manufacturing video and it's not that complicated, I don't think the invention process is either.
    And I have chosen....

  15. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    I'm sorry but I watched the butterfly rubber manufacturing video and it's not that complicated, I don't think the invention process is either.
    And I have chosen....

    Cool, I also stay away from Butterfly. But seeing almost no new Chinese rubber reaching the market, and if they do they cost 40$, I think there is a reason for this.

    Regarding whether it is complicated, it is. A marketing video does not show everything...


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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    Cool, I also stay away from Butterfly. But seeing almost no new Chinese rubber reaching the market, and if they do they cost 40$, I think there is a reason for this.

    Regarding whether it is complicated, it is. A marketing video does not show everything...

    It shows a lot.
    My last batch of Rakza 7 I paid ~30Euros per sheet, will last me the rest of this year.

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    #37
    I have insider info and ESN didn't like the price development of rubber supply.

    https://www.fleetowner.com/running-g...ces-are-rising
    The 20-year high for natural rubber prices was in February 2011, when it peaked at $6.26 per kg. Since then, the price has been steadily dropping and over the last five years, it has averaged between $1.23 and $2.71 per kg. As I write this column, the current price is $2.46, which is almost twice as much as the April 2020 price of $1.33 at the beginning of the pandemic. Recent news of increases from tire manufacturers should not come as a surprise, and taking a closer look at natural rubber production shows that more increases could be expected.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/asia...-idUSL4N2HE0BD
    TOKYO/SHANGHAI Oct 30 (Reuters) - Rubber prices have rocketed to their highest in over three years as protective glove demand surges due to the COVID-19 crisis and industrial use rebounds in China, while supplies remain tight with producers struggling to replenish stocks.

    Output across Southeast Asia - which accounts for more than two-thirds of natural rubber supplies - has been hit by coronavirus-related labour shortages as well as floods and unfavourable weather in Thailand and Vietnam.



    https://documents.ittf.sport/system/...ad_minutes.pdf
    7.6. Affordable equipment
    Dr Alaa Meshref reported on the high price of table tennis equipment, and how,in recent years,the prices have increased, particularly for rubbers, blades and balls. This is seriously affecting the development of table tennis in the countries with low economic resources.

    The CEO reported that he had contacted the equipment manager in order to get more information on the latest situation.It seems that,after an initial phase with high prices due to the lack of good quality balls available, there are now more manufacturers producing balls,and the different companies are starting to have more and more good quality balls on the market.That should result in lower prices.

    Mrs Sörling mentioned that the ITTF could speak with the manufacturers to ensure there are different levels of available equipment, at affordable prices, particularly for beginners.

    12-EC-20170923
    The Executive Committee resolved to invite FIT members to have a discussion with the ITTF to exchange information and ideas and to ensure there is affordable equipment available for beginners.

    Furthermore, the CEO proposed to organize a “Symposium of table tennis” involving the different stakeholders and informing them about the ideas and plans the new ITTF has.

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    #38
    "As I write this column, the current price is $2.46, which is almost twice as much as the April 2020 price of $1.33 at the beginning of the pandemic."

    Let's say $3 per kg, It takes are approximately 10 sheets to make 1kg. That makes 30 cents per sheet, If it was made of 100% rubber.
    So the price of rubber has absolutely nothing to do with the end price...

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    #39
    its the law of economics 101. supply and demand.

    products don't sell at their cost of production. maybe in a marxist economy but history has shown it doesn't work very well.

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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    On order from a Japaneese company...

    Repeat ESN made in Europe not made in Japan.

    No more political prisoners in Catalonia.

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