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    #1

    How to deal with backspin with long pips?

    Hi guys,

    I'm not a defender so maybe this is a dumb question. Today I tried a paddle from a defensive player, which has long pips (sponge 1.0mm) on its backhand. I could get a general feeling of the anti-spin, which is a new experience to me. The more topspin on the coming ball, the more backspin it has when it returns, which is awesome when playing against loopers. But I'm confused about how to deal with coming backspin. With the antispin nature of long pip, a light push generates a little topspin, which is easy for the opponent to attack. It feels impossible to generate backspin with it like normal rubbers.

    However when I look at the videos of great choppers like Joo Se Hyuk, he could generate backspin with a normal push with his long pips. Is it a specific skill or is it because the rubber he uses is not a normal long pip?

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    #2
    Pushing vs. Backspin with long pimples is a specific skill.

    Of course there are pips which are better at generating backspin and some which are worse.

    BTW you should be able to chop a topspin with backspin and chop a topspin without spin with a nearly identical motion to step up your game. The difference is the wrist and forearm. Slower stroke with less to non wrist = low to zero spin, fast arm and activ wrist = high amount of backspin.

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    #3
    Not all LP are equal like inverted, it depends how grip is the LP that you use it, normally with high grip people say "good reverse topspin", when the LP aren't grip less own back spin generates, the best way using LP with low grip again backspin is:
    1. Push forward and up. Keep the open, neutral racket angle.
    2. Do a looping stroke and give some momentum, making sure to bend the pimples, at least a bit. It can work well sometimes, as a surprise effect. Your opponent reacts instinctively on your stroke movements, and return as if there was topspin, and the ball goes into the net.
    3. If you use the long pips on your backhand, try a wrist movement. Contrary to short pips, the wrist should be avoided with long pips but could work.
    4. Close to the net, push upwards, that is, with a digging motion.
    5. Should you attack with the pips, it is on the backspin balls you should attack. To attack, go hard upward and forward! Especially if you use ox or a thin sponge, which means your rubber dampens, you need to start the stroke upwards, otherwise, the ball will go into the net.
    6. On a high-enough ball, just push it flat so it goes just over the net and drops on the other side due to the backspin.

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    Last edited by merlin el mago; 1 Week Ago at 11:47 AM.
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    #4

    Image how to do it.

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    Last edited by merlin el mago; 1 Week Ago at 11:53 AM.
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    #5
    Alternate doing underspin push and drives due to the ball spin changing alternately.

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    #6
    To make some underspin vs an underspin ball, there are many things in play. A good chunk of them already presented. One needs to know the LP and what it takes to make the pips help or not help. Don't expect real heavy underspin from a light to medium push, that isn't realistic.

    One also needs to consider what ball is coming where at what height with what spin and where you are and where you can get to. You have totally different blade angles and forward/vertical swing planes and swing speed and grip dynamics and even biomechanics for balls coming at different heights and speed and spin.

    It is not possible to go over all of those.

    One could say try to impact ball at relatively consistent height to work on consistency for a ball that height, but that isn't realistic all the time.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    Alternate doing underspin push and drives due to the ball spin changing alternately.

    Your answer is like a person that never played with LP, no ofence intended.

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    #8
    Playing god with LP never was easy but now is a challenge.
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago

    Your answer is like a person that never played with LP, no ofence intended.

    Maybe you have never trained players to drill against LP. Since the ball reverses, the easiest way to deal with lp for beginners is switch between the 2 strokes. My point is doing this exwrcise will both benefit the lp user and the inverted guy to enable tjem to read the spin and the amount. I am suggesting sort of a practice method not on how to read spin theoritically.

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    Last edited by yogi_bear; 6 Days Ago at 03:41 AM.
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    #10

    I agree with Merlin to a point. Not all LPs are equal.
    What Merlin suggests is what Greg Letts called a roll. It works but it takes practice.
    I have a chopping paddle with PR-1 1.4mm on a Donic Defplay.
    I have two Dr Neubauer Firewall+ blades with Giant Dragon Talon 0X on the back side.
    There rubbers/paddles are completely different.
    To return heavy back spin the strokes are much different.
    When I am playing with the Giant Dragon Talon OX I simply hit through the ball aggressively. The incoming back spin is now my top spin so the ball will tend to drop due to the Magnus effect.
    When returning heavy backspin balls with the PR-1 I open my paddle a lot more but still push through the ball. The trick is not to bend the pips. If the pips bend the friction increases so the ball will tend go into the net more unless the paddle is opened more to compensate for the downward friction.

    A common mistake that newbie LP players make is to open their paddles too much and pop up the ball.

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    #11
    I think der Echte means a fast push with nearly vertical blade against backspin. This stroke is mostly used by OX Pushblockers or to get some video material it is used by Chen Weixing. But this stroke is more of a attacking shot.

    If you want to push backspin back with backspin, there is non better than whatching games of Joo Sea Hyuk or Ruven Filus. Both have great technique in this shot. Both play with LP with tick sponge.

    If you want to know the attacking stroke for LP (mostly without sponge) there are Videos at the Tak9 Youtube Chanel with a female player who demonstrates all strokes perfectly.

    The classic spin reverse from frictionless long pimples is long gone. A backspin ball will have very little topspin if you do the heavy push. Mostly you will produce a ball with almost no spin of you answer passively.

    But with the right pip that fits your style and movement, you will be able to manipulate the spin or use it to your advantage.

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    #12
    Here is the Chen Weixing Tutorial:

    https://youtu.be/krq8McuU4Go

    And here is the Tak9 Tutorial with the Player I don't know the name of:

    https://youtu.be/9CVTOFKU9gY
    https://youtu.be/ySUBFFrzCQ4

    And there is a Chinese coach Tuturorial for bending the pips

    https://youtu.be/1HD5VTQpFcU


    Of course you can perform every shot with every long pips. But some shots are easier with long pips without sponge and some are easier with sponge. The normal block on topspin is much easier with sponge than without, a chop block is much easier without sponge than with sponge.

    The Chen Weixing side swipe is easy to perform with sponge, but nastier without sponge.

    There are many different ways in playing with pips, hardest balls are always if you get no spin from your opponent. Then you should be able to attack (but with very less margin for error) with the pips or twiddle the Racket to have more options. If you want to learn how to twiddle, take your Racket to your couch, watch a TV show you like and spin it for some hours. You will notice that your motion will get very fluent in very little time. The impuls for spinning the Racket comes from your middle and ring finger. The thumb and your index finger are there to secure the Racket.
    Last edited by Short_Pimple; 6 Days Ago at 09:12 AM.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    Maybe you have never trained players to drill against LP. Since the ball reverses, the easiest way to deal with lp for beginners is switch between the 2 strokes. My point is doing this exwrcise will both benefit the lp user and the inverted guy to enable tjem to read the spin and the amount. I am suggesting sort of a practice method not on how to read spin theoritically.

    Yeah that's basic training against LP with grip not for low grip LP. Inverted people avoid only topspin strokes to not increase the spin reversal coming from LP, basics.

    You aren't right it's a lot of important for a LP player to read the incoming spin and manipulate. Have you ever played with LP?

    Last edited by merlin el mago; 6 Days Ago at 02:42 PM.
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Short_Pimple
    I think der Echte means a fast push with nearly vertical blade against backspin. This stroke is mostly used by OX Pushblockers or to get some video material it is used by Chen Weixing. But this stroke is more of a attacking shot.

    If you want to push backspin back with backspin, there is non better than whatching games of Joo Sea Hyuk or Ruven Filus. Both have great technique in this shot. Both play with LP with tick sponge.

    If you want to know the attacking stroke for LP (mostly without sponge) there are Videos at the Tak9 Youtube Chanel with a female player who demonstrates all strokes perfectly.

    The classic spin reverse from frictionless long pimples is long gone. A backspin ball will have very little topspin if you do the heavy push. Mostly you will produce a ball with almost no spin of you answer passively.

    But with the right pip that fits your style and movement, you will be able to manipulate the spin or use it to your advantage.

    Filus & JSH using sponge because chops the ball mid-long distance from the table. Look carefully both never made a chop close to the table with LP. Mi advice is not to use backspin back when you receive backspin with the LP because if you you generate a little topspin very well welcome for the opponent.

    Last edited by merlin el mago; 6 Days Ago at 02:43 PM.
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago

    Filus & JSH using sponge because chops the ball mid-long distance from the table. Look carefully both never made a chop close to the table with LP. Mi advice is not to use backspin back when you receive backspin with the LP because if you you generate a little topspin very well welcome for the opponent.

    Of course JSH and Filus chop near the table with Lp when they get caught in the wrong position or movement. Their tactics should avoid such situations, but they can't every Time. And not every ball is suited to attack with lp what both of them do really good.

    Thicker sponge with lp just makes life easier in term of generating backspin at your own. And of course it helps alot if you are far away from the table

    And I can't understand your advice. "Never use backspin against backspin because you will give topspin to your opponent" ? If you push with lp against backspin, your opponent will recieve backspin. Of course not the same amount as inverted, but it is backspin.

    If you go for a lift / heavy push or the cwx side swipe against backspin, your opponent will recieve topspin.

    Or do you mean, that if you execute the shot wrong you will give little topspin without intention?

    In my opinion the defensive game is a lot more complex than inverted topspin game. You just have to think way more ahead and get tactics that work for you.


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    #16

    I think der Echte means a fast push with nearly vertical blade against backspin.

    There are several ways to give an underspin ball back to opponent. Dependin on arc, time after bounce, close or far, high or low, loose or tight, short or long stroke, changing grip... so many ways to affect the ball.

    This is also true wit inverted rubbers to an even wider margin.
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    #17
    This depends if he has a long pimpple rubber with grip asmany of the choppers or more of a pushblock long pimple rubber. He proably has the first since he has sponge. He could do any almost any stroke with it i believe since the ball grips a bit, maybe need to close the angle a bit ofpush back. With a short pimple with almost grip you need to have the racket angle neutral and push it forward.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago

    Yeah that's basic training against LP with grip not for low grip LP. Inverted people avoid only topspin strokes to not increase the spin reversal coming from LP, basics.

    You aren't right it's a lot of important for a LP player to read the incoming spin and manipulate. Have you ever played with LP?

    I have played with LP of course since i use them to train against developing players. The only way both players(LP and inverted) would learn is to practice drills using LP vs inverted vice versa. What i was suggesting is apractical way to learn. The first time lp player will practice using it as if doing a bh to bh drill against an inverted. He can vary his strokes and at the same time develop his feel with the LP in order for him to vary his contact with the ball and use different strokes. The problem with beginners with lpnis that they do nit tend to practice the lp against opponents in a drill but if you teach both olayers a certain type of drill, both if them benifits. Unless you have a better idea of teaching that to first time users please share it.

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    #19
    It is hard to reverse the spin with LPs because they don't have much friction. With LP 0X is it almost impossible. With chopping LPs with sponge it is possible but not recommended unless you can keep the return low.

    Because of this thread I played with my chopping paddle. It is a Donic Defplay with Rakza 7 1.8mm on the FH and TSP curl PR-1 1.4mm on the BH. I returned a few of my practice partners fast back hand serves with chop. They were mostly successful but I don't think I was reversing the spin much. I was making a big chopping motion as if the ball should have a lot of backspin yet my practice partner hit a lot of balls long. This tells me I wasn't really able to reverse the back spin of his serves that much. What was working was keeping the ball low.

    Another thing that was working tonight was attacking any high balls with a flat hit or doing what I call a wrist loop on some shorter slower balls.
    My wrist loop is what Greg Letts called rolling the ball or going with the spin. Merlin post images of what Greg Letts called rolling the ball above.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    I have played with LP of course since i use them to train against developing players. The only way both players(LP and inverted) would learn is to practice drills using LP vs inverted vice versa. What i was suggesting is apractical way to learn. The first time lp player will practice using it as if doing a bh to bh drill against an inverted. He can vary his strokes and at the same time develop his feel with the LP in order for him to vary his contact with the ball and use different strokes. The problem with beginners with lpnis that they do nit tend to practice the lp against opponents in a drill but if you teach both olayers a certain type of drill, both if them benifits. Unless you have a better idea of teaching that to first time users please share it.

    Teaching basics OK. Do you supposed OP is a beginning LP player?

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