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  1. Der_Echte is offline
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    #1

    Short Pic Vid of a typical City/Regional Korean TT Tourney

    A very short 3 min pic series made into a vid showing the different aspects of an amateur TT tourney in Korea...

    - where they have 2-3 rows of 12 tables
    - where they stop play at lunchtime to do ceremonies and do raffle drawing for 100 door prizes
    - where coaches and supporters are almost in your court
    - the control desk on the stage
    - the 2nd flor areas where your club puts their stuff and waits for matches and eats and drinks

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    #2
    Hi Der Echte
    How often are these types of event held? In a particular city /town or region. Events of this size are generally pretty sparse where I live, especially for 20+ tables!!

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    #3
    That looks like an epic tournament!

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    #4
    Too bad, most of the playing venues we have here in my country are basketball gyms.
    ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor at your service!

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan
    That looks like an epic tournament!

    Dan,

    That is ONLY AN AVERAGE local city/regional tourney... the National Open tourneys have 2-4x the people (HUNDREDS are already in the city/regional ones) and those tourneys take 2-3 days to complete. Normally, city/regional tourney has 24 tables... national Open class tourneys have 36 to 60 tables going with upwards of 1-2 THOUSAND players, normaly only 3 events, sometimes 4 if they have mixed doubles:

    - Singles (Men/Women)
    - Doubles (Men/Women)
    - Team (Handicaped point system)

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Hi Der Echte
    How often are these types of event held? In a particular city /town or region. Events of this size are generally pretty sparse where I live, especially for 20+ tables!!

    How often? Well, that depends on your region and how many large enough cities there are. Since Korea is pretty dense population, you have enough close by.

    You have the city tourneys, which this post is what the Uijeongbu City Tourney looks like, I used to live there. Then there is one regional/state tourney.

    In my area north of Seoul, you could only participate in the city tourneys in the region if you actually lived and played in the region. Every year, I played an average of 6 of these city tourneys and 1 National Open.

    So... in my region, there were ONCE a YEAR city tourneys:

    - Uijeongbu
    - Yangju
    - Nam-Yangju
    - Guri
    - Pocheon
    - Dongducheon
    - Paju

    Then, there were also nearby National Open class tourneys, some in these very cities.

    Right before I left Korea, I played in the DMZ Open Natl Tourney, which was held in a relatively small town of Cheolwon just south of DMZ.

    ALL the tourneys are held in the city gym, every Korean city has a city gym. I remember the Guri tourney being held in a pro women's Basketball Team's gym.

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    #7
    All of those cities were easily under one hour drive. A lot of the club members would go, anywhere from 25-100 of the same club would go together, split up 3-5 to a car to ride-share. We paid $10 to the women of the club and they would hook us up with endless water, drinks, and cook soup for lunch RIGHT IN THE BLEACHERS. I would toss a 24 pack of beers in my rucksack and try to visit the enemy coaches before thier important matches to get them disoriented enough to slip up here and there while coaching.

    EVERY TOURNEY was a BLAST, that was WAY BETTER than a concert.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte

    How often? Well, that depends on your region and how many large enough cities there are. Since Korea is pretty dense population, you have enough close by.

    You have the city tourneys, which this post is what the Uijeongbu City Tourney looks like, I used to live there. Then there is one regional/state tourney.

    In my area north of Seoul, you could only participate in the city tourneys in the region if you actually lived and played in the region. Every year, I played an average of 6 of these city tourneys and 1 National Open.

    So... in my region, there were ONCE a YEAR city tourneys:

    - Uijeongbu
    - Yangju
    - Nam-Yangju
    - Guri
    - Pocheon
    - Dongducheon
    - Paju

    Then, there were also nearby National Open class tourneys, some in these very cities.

    Right before I left Korea, I played in the DMZ Open Natl Tourney, which was held in a relatively small town of Cheolwon just south of DMZ.

    ALL the tourneys are held in the city gym, every Korean city has a city gym. I remember the Guri tourney being held in a pro women's Basketball Team's gym.

    Wow Every city has its own gym... so it really is like Pokémon! 🤣


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    #9
    Hi Der_Echte,

    Totally different world!!!

    Looks like it’s great fun and SO well supported!! more of a social day out, as well as a competition.
    Bet the post Tourney evening entertainments could be TOTALLY BRUTAL!!!!!

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    #10
    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...ll=1#post51444

    That post cleared my questions about the classification system in Korea.

    I thought it would be great if you could post say 5 matches (in 1 post), between 2 typical DIVn national players for n = 5, 4, ..., 1. Or even better more, with some regional or city DIVx typical level matches. So that all those are sorted by level, increasing. Then we could see the differences and the "progress" in the level.

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    #11
    Hi Latej,

    Over the past few months, I have created numerous threads with different vids of players from different classifications. The most recent vid was from the finals of Natl Div 4/5 combined, both players being Div 5. Typically, the Div 5 Natl Open winners are Div 4 or Div 3 city. Div 4 national has a higher concentration of ringers, often the Div 4 winner of a Natl Open is a very strong Div 1 city player.

    Something you have to understand about divisions in Korea. The club coaches are motivated by the handicap system (Where first difference in division gets 2 pt handicap immediately and one additional for each additional level of difference) so...

    ... at the very top end of each division, you have a very large pool of players who are seriously underclassified. Coaches have an interest to keep it this way. Sure, this is not fair to the average player who is truly classified, but when you have 400-500 equal level players playing, one has to perform 2 levels better anyway to make the finals. Another thing is, since ALL the clubs do this, the playing field is level... but only at the toip end it is level.

    There is no effective way to eliminate this. You can say let's have the tourney director adjust everyone on his judgement, but then it becomes real political and favoritism prone.

    Myself, even though I never made a finals of a Natl Open, tourney directors kept putting me a div higher. I had a BH topspin others did not have, but not the allround footwork developed Koreans have. So... I was discriminated against to ensure I never made a final. Was it racist? NO. It was simply ensuring I never had a chance at the higher levels to make it, unless I grew a few levels... and whenever I did that, I got moved up regardless.

    Look at my profile and click on threads created and you can see a lot of what you are asking for in terms of what division nation plays how and what city level plays how.
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Hi Latej,

    Over the past few months, I have created numerous threads with different vids of players from different classifications. The most recent vid was from the finals of Natl Div 4/5 combined, both players being Div 5. Typically, the Div 5 Natl Open winners are Div 4 or Div 3 city. Div 4 national has a higher concentration of ringers, often the Div 4 winner of a Natl Open is a very strong Div 1 city player.
    Hi Der,

    I know you did. We can't thank you enough for it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Something you have to understand about divisions in Korea. The club coaches are motivated by the handicap system (Where first difference in division gets 2 pt handicap immediately and one additional for each additional level of difference) so...

    ... at the very top end of each division, you have a very large pool of players who are seriously underclassified. Coaches have an interest to keep it this way. Sure, this is not fair to the average player who is truly classified, but when you have 400-500 equal level players playing, one has to perform 2 levels better anyway to make the finals. Another thing is, since ALL the clubs do this, the playing field is level... but only at the toip end it is level.

    There is no effective way to eliminate this. You can say let's have the tourney director adjust everyone on his judgement, but then it becomes real political and favoritism prone.
    About that - I actually got it from the post you made in 2013 (the one I linked). I thought of it as an interesting "emerging" Korea-local phenomenon, made possible by the sheer amount of players, like own internal dynamics. I didn't think of it as bad thing, more like a thing which is simply happening. But now as I read what you wrote, I understand this can individually frustrate a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Myself, even though I never made a finals of a Natl Open, tourney directors kept putting me a div higher. I had a BH topspin others did not have, but not the allround footwork developed Koreans have. So... I was discriminated against to ensure I never made a final. Was it racist? NO. It was simply ensuring I never had a chance at the higher levels to make it, unless I grew a few levels... and whenever I did that, I got moved up regardless.
    Cool, I like that. I mean it's unjust, but it is also a certain form of respect. And you could play against strong opponents. At non-pro level, good matches is more important than winning tournaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Look at my profile and click on threads created and you can see a lot of what you are asking for in terms of what division nation plays how and what city level plays how.
    Will do. Should have done by now. This sorted by increasing level, couple of matches, I thought it could be interesting...

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    #13
    Well, I never really made an all-inclusive coherent all-in-one thread post about amateur Korean TT levels that has teh vids to show it, even though I have talked about them for years and years.

    I have piecemealed it... but more recntly I thought I put out enough to get the idea accross.

    I had so much fun playing TT over there, the TDs could hate on me 10x more and I would still do it again.

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    #14
    Here is a vid showing how at the club level they are seriously underclassified.

    The lady is Div 7 in her club and the guy Div 5...

    OK, I get it, the lady pushes heavy underspin into the net a lot, but her FH drive, her footwork, and her countering are way higher level. She would be a typical Div 5 city male Div player in the amateur syste, One part of the vid says she is Div 6, the other 7. I say 7, because she is getting spotted 3 point handicap, which means 2 levels of Div difference.

    The guy, he is listed as Div 5 club... he would eat up a lot of Div 3 city players and spit them out. Let's call dude a Div 4 city ringer, many clubs have several players like this purposely under-classified. In my former city, there is a club where they have SEVEN each Div 3 classified players who are ALL STRONG DIV 1 PLAYERS, so they clean up on team event more often than others, because they were better at sandbagging.

    We can complain about how or why such and such system has ringers and underclassified players, but every possible solution to that issue can be defeated by one or more means. The easiest way, which is the most common way, is to lose purposely during the group stage, then lose again right before making finals.

    If you enforce a points rating system, like in USA, where players gain or lose ratings points based on level of their opponent's then all it would take is some loses in the group stage of singles... BAM, now player is classified UNDER hiz true level and has green light to go beast mode and win out in team event without making his rating jump up too much... and if it does, then he could always lose in group stage again next tourney, maybe both matches. If the event is combined event, like say Div 3/4 or Div 1/2 (they combine div events if there are not a lot of players in a division to fillout the brackets) then they could face much lower rated player and lose... win-win. Lower player gets ratings points they crave, and ringer lowers his rating safely.

    Jeong Young Sik's dad is a legit Div 1 city player, but he uses the singles event as a warmup for team event and ALWAYS loses his group. This does not give him an advantage for classification, he is properly classified at Div 1 city. He simply isn't interested in advancing in Singles events, it is too many matches that could ruin his focus of team event.

    Did I forget to add the vid? Would anyone kindly clock me upside my big head for that pls?
    Last edited by Der_Echte; 02-28-2021 at 01:36 PM.
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    #15
    Same TT channel, Beaty Pong... two ladys playing, women's Div 2 and 3. These players would fit somewhere in Men's Div 5 or Div 4 city.

    Div 2 lady lose handicap match game one badly, gets revenge with FIVE NETS next game. KLASSE.
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    We can complain about how or why such and such system has ringers and underclassified players, but every possible solution to that issue can be defeated by one or more means. The easiest way, which is the most common way, is to lose purposely during the group stage, then lose again right before making finals.

    If you enforce a points rating system, like in USA, where players gain or lose ratings points based on level of their opponent's then all it would take is some loses in the group stage of singles... BAM, now player is classified UNDER hiz true level and has green light to go beast mode and win out in team event without making his rating jump up too much... and if it does, then he could always lose in group stage again next tourney, maybe both matches. If the event is combined event, like say Div 3/4 or Div 1/2 (they combine div events if there are not a lot of players in a division to fillout the brackets) then they could face much lower rated player and lose... win-win. Lower player gets ratings points they crave, and ringer lowers his rating safely.
    Imho, the points rating system would make a huge change in there. I am not taking sides which is better. In any system, our ego finds the way to show up. It does in the current Korean system. And in the points rating system, our ego forces us to try to have as many points as possible. People would occasionally deliberately drop, but I think it would be much less often.

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    #17
    We could of course discuss the point system, pros and cons. I believe that at the end of the day, ringers will be determined to be ringers and it is impossible to stop... or that the measures against ringers in USA would be counter-productive.

    Pros of point system is that it is a little more specific than a Div system. Each Div should be covering about 200 ratings points from bottom to top, but over there, with teh ringers and close to ringer crowd, there is like a 400 point divide in each division. At a minimum, in USA, if you say you are 1900 rated player, one has a decent enough idea of the overall level. If you say you play Div 3 city in Korea, we have an idea too, but it is a much wider possible range.

    Cons of point system, at least in USA is the CULTURE that has followed. SO MANY ADULT USA PLAYERS are so totally obsessed over their levels it is silly stupid. These players want points, not championships at their level. You cannot comprehend the kind of complaining adults do when an under-rated kid pops up... and you would never approve of adults defaulting matches to players they are afraid of losing to... if you enter an event, you fight... if other dude fights better or you cannot discern impact of opponent, then you lose... you fight again in another event... or if you crashed out of the last event and there is no more TT for that day, you could always toss your heavy rucksack accross the arena Der_Echte style like you setting a new olympic hammer throw record.

    Another con is that it is SO DAMN EASY to manipulate your rating to keep it lower than your true play level. The benefit of that is you qualify for a lower division... and in big tourneys, there is enough cash prize to motive and feed this behavior. Let's say you are a 2400 level player... so you do a couple tourneys where you lose to bottom player in group, but advance from group... after a few tourneys, you could be 1973 rated... so you sign up for LA Open U2000, U2200, U2300 events... and you WIN THEM ALL and cash out big time, like nearly $1000 if you win them all. This is how ringers roll.

    I am a lot opposite... you could say my LA Open 2019 tourney was my best tourney where I gained almost 150 ratings points in one tourney to crash through the 2000 level... but I would say NO WAY. maybe my best tourney was my last one on March 2020... where I defeated a number of 2000 level Cali players and showed I belong in that class. I was concerned I was over-classified. The March 2020 tourney I LOST 7 or 8 ratings points, but it was surely a great touney for me. I advanced in all events I entered (all 3) from group stage and competed strongly. That tourney convinced me LA Open wasn't an accident. I am motivated to increase my rating, only as it is a reflection of my play level, I want it to be true, not over-classified. If I am a little under-classified, then if I play well in toruney, it will get quickly corrected.

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    #18
    Another pro of a ratings system, which is a con, but inreality is a pro... is THIS.

    I discussed this already. Lower rated players CRAVE ratings points. RINGERS want to occasionally and strategically SHED ratings points. When these two forces collide and Ringer "Loses" a close 5 set match at duece... then BOTH are HAPPY.

    Since this is a win-win for the two players involved, and business should be CUSTOMER SATISFACTION oriented... then it is good business if one looks at it like that.

    Given this aspect, a points system COULD serve Korea well... but honestly, I wish it would not happen there. I would hate to see Korean TT get like USA in ratings points behavior dysfunction...

    SOME amateur Koreans want this point system, but many more do not.
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Here is a vid showing how at the club level they are seriously underclassified.

    The lady is Div 7 in her club and the guy Div 5...

    OK, I get it, the lady pushes heavy underspin into the net a lot, but her FH drive, her footwork, and her countering are way higher level. She would be a typical Div 5 city male Div player in the amateur syste, One part of the vid says she is Div 6, the other 7. I say 7, because she is getting spotted 3 point handicap, which means 2 levels of Div difference.

    The guy, he is listed as Div 5 club... he would eat up a lot of Div 3 city players and spit them out. Let's call dude a Div 4 city ringer, many clubs have several players like this purposely under-classified. In my former city, there is a club where they have SEVEN each Div 3 classified players who are ALL STRONG DIV 1 PLAYERS, so they clean up on team event more often than others, because they were better at sandbagging.
    Watched the video. Good friendly atmosphere. Now I know Div 5 city +- 2. Btw. if she would be typical Div 5 <b>city</b> male player, would she also be Div 5 <b>national</b> male player?

    I thought she has good hand, but uses almost no body rotation.

    Also the other one, Div2/Div3 ladies with 2pts handicap, so that would be Div 4 city male. Clear progression from Div 5 city male. Nice exchange at 7:14-20. Love the bowing after net/edge.

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    Last edited by latej; 02-28-2021 at 03:04 PM.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Another pro of a ratings system, which is a con, but inreality is a pro... is THIS.

    I discussed this already. Lower rated players CRAVE ratings points. RINGERS want to occasionally and strategically SHED ratings points. When these two forces collide and Ringer "Loses" a close 5 set match at duece... then BOTH are HAPPY.

    Since this is a win-win for the two players involved, and business should be CUSTOMER SATISFACTION oriented... then it is good business if one looks at it like that.

    Given this aspect, a points system COULD serve Korea well... but honestly, I wish it would not happen there. I would hate to see Korean TT get like USA in ratings points behavior dysfunction...

    SOME amateur Koreans want this point system, but many more do not
    In golf, ringers are called BANDITS !!!, they have their ‘official’ Handicap, they mainly play in ‘swindles’ which are a group of members that play every week / weekend in their own groups, these can be a large or small group. The swindle is separate from official club events, so the swindle, handicap their members separately from the club, the BANDITS don’t submit their cards for the rounds they play in the swindle to the club.
    so a player could have a swindle handicap of say 8, but an official handicap of 12, then they enter the clubs ‘major’ cups and clean up!!
    this is likely to change in the UK as there is now the American/ world golf handicap system in place, (only just been brought in here in the UK), this means the players HAVE to submit their cards for every round they play!!!! It’ll be interesting to see what happens!!!

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