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  1. NoFootwork is offline
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    #1

    MA LONG - THE GOATEST of all GOATS

    End of discussion for the next several generations.

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    #2
    hahaha where are "mUh wALdNur" boys at?

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    #3
    i mean, the discussion was already over, but now those waldner biased boomers can really be quiet

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    #4
    We was just writing up a very similar topic. You beat us to it 🐐

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    #5
    I understand having your favourite player, but I don't understand trying to shit on others.

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    #6
    Exactly. I don't remember any Waldner fans insisting he's better. Ma long was probably the GOAT after the 2019 WTTC and today he sealed the deal.
    ​​​​​​I say this even though Waldner is my favourite Player and the second GOAT IMHO.
    ​​​​​

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by anchorschmidt
    Exactly. I don't remember any Waldner fans insisting he's better. Ma long was probably the GOAT after the 2019 WTTC and today he sealed the deal.
    ​​​​​​I say this even though Waldner is my favourite Player and the second GOAT IMHO.
    ​​​​​

    I agree, the discussion hasn't been in favor of anyone else since the 2019 WTTC win anyway. Waldner unfortunately is hurt by the fact the he lost as many big finals as he won.

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    #8
    I always thought that Waldner was somehow overrated. His successes mostly being down to the era where the technique of the Chinese players having not been yet fully and properly developed as it is now. But it became more evident with Waldner's very "static", languid, passive and blocky technique that is nowhere near as lively and dynamic as it should be which Ma Long or FZD or any other Chinese players now are.

    It was especially clearly visible what a drastic difference there is when Waldner played a match against the young Ma Long and lost rather easily to him and there was no reason whatsoever why Waldner should've lost that match to him with the excuse that "oh because he was too old".
    Last edited by bzing; 5 Days Ago at 01:57 PM.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    I always thought that Waldner was somehow overrated. His successes mostly being down to the era where the technique of the Chinese players having not been yet fully and properly developed as it is now. But it became more evident with Waldner's very "static", languid, passive and blocky technique that is nowhere near as lively and dynamic as it should be which Ma Long or FZD or any other Chinese players now are.

    It was especially clearly visible what a drastic difference there is when Waldner played a match against the young Ma Long and lost rather easily to him and there was no reason whatsoever why Waldner should've lost that match to him with the excuse that "oh because he was too old".

    The way I see it, the Waldner, Persson, Gatien and several others from Europe forced the Chinese to move away from their Penhold strategies and develop shakehand players. Of course, their early crop with Xu Xengcai or Ma Wenge wasn't up to par until Kong Linghui emerged. Kong whom went to Sweden to study our game and take the good parts back to China. The discussion of best players is difficult because different eras have different ball sizes, balls, technique and development in it. Barna has 4 WTTC golds, but since he played hardbat before sponge the game is so different we cannot accurately consider it the same game as now. While you cannot make an argument of Waldner>Ma Long now I don't think you can call a player with 4 WTTC Finals, 2 Olympic finals overrated. Waldner is also best compared to players from Jiang Jialiang to Guoliang's generation.

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    #10
    I was always team ML in this discussion but today I found out one point in Waldner's favor because a friend and I were looking at the olympics stats and we saw at one tournament there were Ma Lin Wang Hao and Wang Liqin. That means Waldner always comepeted agaist 3 chinese in the olympics and still got one (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

    It hit me at the end of the match that this might be the last match for ML , I think it is a possibility.
    We were lucky to witness his greatness honestly

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    #11

    MA LONG - THE GOATEST of all GOATS

    Waldner (and company) broke the CNT dominance and more or less left it in the dust for a decade or so. In doing that, they pushed envelopes and accelerated developments already budding end 70s to fruition.

    They paved the way, as rolemodels as well as opponents, sparring partners and later as mentors, for new generations. That spark is worth remembering and commands respect.

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    Last edited by yoass; 5 Days Ago at 03:03 PM.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe950

    The way I see it, the Waldner, Persson, Gatien and several others from Europe forced the Chinese to move away from their Penhold strategies and develop shakehand players. Of course, their early crop with Xu Xengcai or Ma Wenge wasn't up to par until Kong Linghui emerged. Kong whom went to Sweden to study our game and take the good parts back to China. The discussion of best players is difficult because different eras have different ball sizes, balls, technique and development in it. Barna has 4 WTTC golds, but since he played hardbat before sponge the game is so different we cannot accurately consider it the same game as now. While you cannot make an argument of Waldner>Ma Long now I don't think you can call a player with 4 WTTC Finals, 2 Olympic finals overrated. Waldner is also best compared to players from Jiang Jialiang to Guoliang's generation.

    Main difference between the european and the chinese players that the chinese have learnt to wrap around the ball when doing forehand loops, there is many other aspects in the game of course but the european players still go sort of tangentially against the ball in their forehand and often become completely at a shock, awe and a surprise when the chinese players like Ma Long respond with an opened up racket angle, and pierce the ball engaging the rubber as well as the blade, and wrap around it, and when you watch Marcos Freitas against FZD for example, when FZD wraps the ball around by engaging both the rubber and the blade, there's so much inbuilt power in the ball that when Marcos or Timo Boll with their tangential, very closed bat angle try to counter it, the ball often simply slids off their rackets and then they start looking at their rackets in oblivion wondering why is that happening. It's because Ma Long and FZD wrap around the ball from the side and then going forward, rather than upwards like Timo Boll or Marcos Freitas is.
    Last edited by bzing; 5 Days Ago at 02:22 PM.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Musaab
    I was always team ML in this discussion but today I found out one point in Waldner's favor because a friend and I were looking at the olympics stats and we saw at one tournament there were Ma Lin Wang Hao and Wang Liqin. That means Waldner always comepeted agaist 3 chinese in the olympics and still got one (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

    It hit me at the end of the match that this might be the last match for ML , I think it is a possibility.
    We were lucky to witness his greatness honestly

    Those 3 were at the 2004 Athens Olympics, but that doesn't mean he played all three and beat them. He did beat Ma Lin. Then he lost to Ryu Seung Min, the eventual gold medal winner. He also lost to Wang Liqin in the Bronze medal match.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    Main difference.....

    Not arguing your knowledge of today's technicalities in the game. I trust you about that. But I do wanna dd that you talked about that Waldner should have won in 2012 when he played Ma Long. Age is actually relevant here. Ma Long was young and soon entering his prime, Waldner was a league player at age 47. That's like saying Samsonov should be beating Wang Chuqin today without worry because of his accolades (he might be able to, not saying he can't).

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pongfugrasshopper

    Those 3 were at the 2004 Athens Olympics, but that doesn't mean he played all three and beat them. He did beat Ma Lin. Then he lost to Ryu Seung Min, the eventual gold medal winner. He also lost to Wang Liqin in the Bronze medal match.

    Yes but that means to win the gold medal you have to win against at least two chinese (at least one would be in your side of the draw and the other waiting in the final).
    While and this applies to chinese players too, in order to win a gold medal you have to go through only one chinese.


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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Musaab

    Yes but that means to win the gold medal you have to win against at least two chinese (at least one would be in your side of the draw and the other waiting in the final).
    While and this applies to chinese players too, in order to win a gold medal you have to go through only one chinese.

    Walder won Gold in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics. In that Olympics, he beat France's Gatien in the Finals, S. Korea's Kim Taek Soo in the Semis, and Germany's Jorg Rosskopf in the Quarterfinals:

    https://www.olympiandatabase.com/index.php?id=9464&L=1

    Not to take anything away from him. He's one of the all time greats.

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    #17
    Well the Chinese have to go thru the other Chinese AND go thru all the non-Chinese just to be selected for the Olympics.

    Ma Long has a dominant or winning record against the Chinese as well.

    No need to disrespect or belittle Waldner and his achievements.

    We are privileged to see Ma Long play.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe950
    I understand having your favourite player, but I don't understand trying to shit on others.

    Haven't you heard in Jeppe? In today's binary thinking society, you can only be one or the other. Furthermore, if you're for one thing, you must by rule hate the other. That's how it works.

    ps - Congrats to Ma Long. Nobody can touch what he has achieved.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by suds79

    Haven't you heard in Jeppe? In today's binary thinking society, you can only be one or the other. Furthermore, if you're for one thing, you must by rule hate the other. That's how it works.

    ps - Congrats to Ma Long. Nobody can touch what he has achieved.

    In hindsight I shouldn't have written that one post, as much I respect Ma Long I feel like disrespecting Waldner, Liqin, Jike or any other player that could have ever claimed goat in any way or form is just bad taste.


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    #20
    Now I won't get as much hate for this video πŸ˜…

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