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  1. Der_Echte is offline
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    #1

    You be using TOO MUCH SHOUDLER You !!!

    Hi everyone,

    I know the vid series from this Korean lady duo is aimed at beginning and lower level players, but I coach an adult who is above average club level who does exactly this and I spent time telling him exactly what these ladies are saying and why it affects the shot/recovery/quality just like these ladies nailed it.

    This problem is MUCH MORE COMMON than one would think.

    The adult learning from me played on his own without coaching for FOUR DECADES, developed a very good ability to slap the piss out of the ball close to table and away from table with his brother who can slap it better than him repeatedly.

    Point is, this man developed some real bad biomechanics on his own, like many players do... but then he got some lessons from a near elite amateur player/coach, and it got drilled into him that on every stroke one must rotate waist and shouders a LOT on every stroke, close to table or not. So... our friend started to use WAY too much shoulder movement with arm locked up all bent.

    This led (as the ladies clearly explain) to my friend using WAY TOO MUCH SHOULDER... and ensured it was TIGHT... and ensured crappy ability to spin the ball (you have to get down some for that, but too much shoulder hinders that).

    This also led to rotating the waist, torso, and shoulders like he was a 30,000 heavy kg jumbo cargo truck locked in 8x8 drive. His arm was ALWAYS bent at 90 degrees and had next to zero arm snap... whcih made him use his shouldes even more before impact.

    These ladies' English is not gunna win awards, but they do clearly identify the problem and get the point accross.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 03-12-2021 at 08:08 AM.

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    #2
    Anyone still drooling over my last vid starring Ggong-Yang can fly over to Seoul Korea and meet the coach talking and hitting/demonstrating, she is not married... yet.

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    #3
    I see this as a coach sometimes! I think many times it is not because they do not know how to do, but more that they need to control the "degrees of freedom" - meaning in this case that it is to hard to control the motion to just be from the elbow so they restrain it and move with a bigger motion. With training it will be easier to get less stiff and just move the part of the extremity that you want. And of course some just do not know how to do.

    Really fun that they try to do english subtitles!

    Feel like asian people in generel have a manner that is pretty cute and polite. I like that!

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    #4
    Few days ago i also facing this problem .After taking break for few days now i am compeletly recover from shoulder pain.

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    #5
    Thank you for sharing. I have that problem with my backhand. I get so tired in my shoulder after only 10 min of backhand topspins. I have discussed it with my coach, he is a great player with great technic, but he is not so good at explaining. He told med to relax and explode. But this video gave me a better understanding of what I’m doing wrong. I’m now eager for next training session to put this new understanding into practise.

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    #6
    Took me months to fix it so I know how hard it is. Now have the same problem as that of Der_Echte. My decades-low-level-experienced training partner seems never be able to fix it no matter how hard I try to help. Told him all the things the lady said - feel very soft in your shoulder muscle, forget about your long distance looping shit and don’t do it for 2 months, make 100% sure your elbow is in front of you, “back-swing”/yin-pai by opening your lower arm instead of upper etc. Etc.

    I’ll give 3 more tricks that I used very effectively
    - Use the left hand to block the movement of the elbow for 5 mins when warming up - put it behind the elbow so you are aware of your tendency to move it back, but DON’T hold it tight. Everybody thought it was a terrible idea, even coaches, but it worked wonder for me.
    - FOREHAND - follow the ball with your LEFT shoulder instead of your RIGHT. You’ll naturally use more body rotation.
    - BACKHAND - follow the ball with your ELBOW

    I think in the end of the day, the hardest thing is to overcome your mindset. If you want to hit it HARD, you’ll get stiff. If you try to hit it EFFECTIVELY, it’ll get easier.

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    Last edited by Tango K; 03-12-2021 at 02:49 PM.

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    #7
    Thanks Der_Echte for sharing this. I actually follow this channel and quite frequently look at the content which they are sharing. I find that they do share some very useful and simple tips on mechanics and overall form correction. I think it was pointed out that the channel caters more to beginners strokes and preparation for play but I think that we can benefit from it based on how we look at our game. If someone of us is being coached or has had coaching then it is a different scenario all together. Few things which I grasped while trying to make my strokes efficient are -
    • If you are having trouble with your strokes, for example, timing issues, then first reduce the number of moving parts. So to say, stop using the wrist. You may not realize but though wrist is a potent weapon a lot of timing issues come when we try to snap it without understand when to do it.
    • Let go of power. Try to do the stroke with simple motion. So, in essence don't try to do loops against a heavy backspin to test your new approach but take things simply and slowly
    • Work on the count. Numbers matter. If you can keep your motion smooth, short and consistent and get the numbers crunching in that would build up muscle memory. So essentially, if you had 20 different ways to hit backhand then you will not consult the catalog in a match on how to hit a backhand loop against backspin ball. Keep it simple and consistent
    • Stop trying to generate too much spin. Well, this point might be controversial but I realize that the generation of spin is directly proportional to the relaxation in your forearm and thus your snap. But you won't get it in one day. So try getting a smoother motion instead.
    • Record yourself. Just for 10 consecutive shots. You don't need 1 hour recording of yourself hitting your strokes. Record when you start fresh, record when you are in the middle of your session and also record in the very end. This helps in understanding how your form changes and what you need to be aware of. Be cautious, your opponents also is looking at your body language and making notes. So, if you stand up tall when you are tired then this is a cue for your opponent and you should know it too so that you can fix it.
    • Realize that your racket can do the job for you, if you let it do. So stop pushing the Ferrari and start driving it by sitting in the drivers seat.

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    Most of the times practice, patience and an observant mind answers all your questions

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KM1976
    Thanks Der_Echte for sharing this. I actually follow this channel and quite frequently look at the content which they are sharing. I find that they do share some very useful and simple tips on mechanics and overall form correction. I think it was pointed out that the channel caters more to beginners strokes I frequently say that this channel was made for beginning players, but talks about things that more advanced players could use and preparation for play but I think that we can benefit from it based on how we look at our game. If someone of us is being coached or has had coaching then it is a different scenario all together. Even for those being coached, being exposed to new ideas that work is good for development. Few things which I grasped while trying to make my strokes efficient are -
    • If you are having trouble with your strokes, for example, timing issues, then first reduce the number of moving parts. So to say, stop using the wrist. You may not realize but though wrist is a potent weapon a lot of timing issues come when we try to snap it without understand when to do it. I would say instead to shorten the stroke, go for less power, wait a little longer, and make sure you impact the ball in effective part of strike zone. Biomechanics are important, but I get what you are saying. I would say use less. Where I agree with you is on learning serves and the violent short whip motion one needs to make spin on serves. It is next to impossible to practice it all at the same time if the timing to impact is bad... that makes a player slow down stroke or do crazy stuff to land the ball. I advocate early isolation to develop timing. I ask players to sit down, toss up ball, use the basic short whip open palm and bring palm like serving without paddle while seated and catch the ball with open palm. This eliminates all the other things and focuses on timing to impact, while still using biomechanics.
    • Let go of power. Try to do the stroke with simple motion. So, in essence don't try to do loops against a heavy backspin to test your new approach but take things simply and slowly This is onle of the top things I say to adult players who are off time, off balance, and strike ball out of zone, Slow down, get ball into zone consistently, then progressively increase power. Of course, one can simply go for broke and finally develop timing and improve, but it is a LOT of crash and burn in the learning.
    • Work on the count. Numbers matter. If you can keep your motion smooth, short and consistent and get the numbers crunching in that would build up muscle memory. So essentially, if you had 20 different ways to hit backhand then you will not consult the catalog in a match on how to hit a backhand loop against backspin ball. Keep it simple and consistent The thing here is that players are VERY MOTIVATED to practice by self, but if they are practicing ineffective motion, timing or impact, then it is only reinforcing failure and making it many times more difficult to fix later. SO MANY ADULT PLAYERS totally ruin their development this way and never realize why they do not grow in level, despite paying big bucks to big time coaches. This is almost, if not, the number one thing holding adult players back, so of course, I make a personal war against this. OK, not a war, but I am very strongly against self practice on strokes until the player can do it and be able to feel for self when it was right. If a player insists on using a robot away from supervision of competent help, then I emphasize the things discussed earlier to give a better chance of striking ball in strike zone... which are use shorter stroke, less power, wait, be on balance, be loose, do not lock up whole sections of body.
    • Stop trying to generate too much spin. Well, this point might be controversial but I realize that the generation of spin is directly proportional to the relaxation in your forearm and thus your snap. But you won't get it in one day. So try getting a smoother motion instead. Many coaches are divided on this. Looking at how many "advanced" players actually know how to spin the ball with heavy spin when they want, I would say the coaches and players who advocate against learning spin are winning the fight big time. I am always very clear about this. SPIN IS YOUR FRIEND, even at advanced levels below elite. It is always to a player's benefit to learn how to spin, as it will provide the player with much higher landing percentage on topspin shots, plus provide a LOT more options of how to deal with a ball. having said that, one does not begin spinning heavy in one day, so a progressive approach is needed, much like I advocated above. There will be failure. One area where a full violent stroke is needed is when learning to loop vs underspin, I advocate using the full power there. There is no way to learn looping underspin using a half-azz stroke. It must be violent and have big time bat speed. You need to use your body. Training for that actually helps out later big time, not a waste, but of course the shot will not be able to use 80% landing rate in match the first day. Takes months or years.

      Going back to the principle, I am against eliminating the wrist, even early on. I am for using less at first, then more later as timing to impact gets better, the timing to impact improves, and position on obalance on time improves enough.
    • Record yourself. Just for 10 consecutive shots. You don't need 1 hour recording of yourself hitting your strokes. Record when you start fresh, record when you are in the middle of your session and also record in the very end. This helps in understanding how your form changes and what you need to be aware of. Be cautious, your opponents also is looking at your body language and making notes. So, if you stand up tall when you are tired then this is a cue for your opponent and you should know it too so that you can fix it. The value of recording ones self is that nearly EVERY PLAYER can THINK they are doing such and such, when they are actually doing something else. The camera does not lie. Some players can see the vid of self and see right away what is going on, or not going on. MANY players need competent help to see things. Messing things up is that there are a number of coaches who will not catch what is going on. TT is not easy sometimes. Howver, if the coach is effectively communicating with the player, that player will understand the important foundational concepts and be able to spot it when right and feel it when wrong, the vid confirms it and provides motivation not just to fix what is wrong or ineffective, but to get insight into HOW or WHY it is not effective. That is very valuable.

    Realize that your racket can do the job for you, if you let it do. So stop pushing the Ferrari and start driving it by sitting in the drivers seat. GRIP and grip pressure so affect the shot it is an unseen force. One must learn for self what happens with light grip and firming at impact and the different ways/places to impact a ball to control the outcome. A very overlooked cause of failure when players go for power and are inconsistent is that the player is often not in position on balance on time, then totally screws things up by NOT BEING LOOSE with muscles. This is also assuming the player has learned which muscles to sequence how much at what time in the stroke.

    So, I do not believe the major issue(s) is (are) a lack of allow bat to do work. A bat does not do work, a player must operate it. What a lot of people mean when they say let bat do the work is to not over power the ball, do not use huge stroke (especially out of position or balance) and use the right grip pressure at impact.

    What is true is that some blade and rubber make doing something easier or more difficult and this afects control and power and spin.


    Players need to realize that there are situaions with the incoming ball where there is PLENTY of force already. No need for big stroke to add another coupld kph to the speed where a shorter stroke and firm up of grip at impact will make that ball fly. One easy way is to visualize where opponent hits a spinny powershot to your BH. You simply place bat in the right spot and firm up the grip. That ball flies off your bat cross court and by the opponent before he realized what happened. You used ZERO stroke, yet made that ball really fly.

    Understanding impact, understanding where energy gets lost and produced/amplified/transferred counts for a LOT in this sport. That will give a player a much better sense of when to use big swing and when to use short or tiny swing. The swing is only a portion of the picture in the result of the ball. GRIP accounts for a lot. So does amplifying power in hte sequence of times muscle movements.
    Hi KM,

    Your comments ought to be some of the very things players and coaches should consider for different situations. I have articulated on some things I hold important in bold in your quote.

    I frequently say, and Korean coaches and pros say it more often, that there is no single "Right Answer" in table tennis.

    There are some time proven ways, and I frequently fight against those who claim that those proven ways are the ONLY way.

    So, given that background, in case TTD members haven't seen what I have written over the years, will know where I come from.

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    #9
    Rotator cuff injury lol

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    #10


    Thanks for sharing!


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    #11
    Great thread, video and comments that everyone can benefit from as a player or coach!

    Something I've fixed before but I've caught myself doing again, too much damn shoulder!!! So I'm working on it effectively again thanks to this.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    This also led to rotating the waist, torso, and shoulders

    I thought torso and shoulder rotation was a good thing? I injured my rotator cuff with just a few (admittedly, too long, like 3+ hours) practices using less torso rotation than usual. This was three months ago and it still hurts like hell. During those practice sessions I was hitting high balls with mostly my upper arm and all the power generated from the whole arm without torso movement. Now I must always use the torso rotation on every stroke, just like the example you gave, otherwise my shoulder hurts


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    #13
    Doppelganger,

    DAS PROBLEM ist... when you are moving the entire shoulder forward and not using it for leverage. Players who do this very often are locking up shoulder, which takes away from any power, spin, and control you can do. Players doing this often rotate pretty much the entire body like it is locked in 4x4 or 8x8 drive.

    A good whip is a relaxed and timed SEQUENCE of explosions to generate, amplify, and transfer force.

    Using shoulder in the manner shown in the vid really hinders efficient biomechanics.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Doppelganger,

    DAS PROBLEM ist... when you are moving the entire shoulder forward and not using it for leverage. Players who do this very often are locking up shoulder, which takes away from any power, spin, and control you can do. Players doing this often rotate pretty much the entire body like it is locked in 4x4 or 8x8 drive.

    A good whip is a relaxed and timed SEQUENCE of explosions to generate, amplify, and transfer force.

    Using shoulder in the manner shown in the vid really hinders efficient biomechanics.

    Thank you, got it. One day after the covid restrictions I will take a video and ask for some tips from the forum members.

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    #15
    For the slow and high ball, not just rotation but you can maximize weight transfer, particularly if you are skinny since you would be able to recover a little faster than chubbier guys. Feel like your body weight goes forward even past your own body. You can see the professionals doing this a lot.

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    #16
    Great and timely video. Thank you for this. Very helpful tip to activate and use more shoulder when far from table. Less shoulder, straighter arm, and racquet below ball level when close. Was just thinking about this and trying to figure out how to correct.

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger_LT

    I thought torso and shoulder rotation was a good thing?....

    The point of the vid is to avoid the tightening of the shoulder, and moving just the hitting shoulder while tight, which stops al the energy and makes it impossible to recreate it.

    There is a way to use the shoulders, like both of them along with the waist/torso in a sequence to get another 10% of spin and power.

    Kim Jung Hoon frequently talks about this as an adjustment in the swing where you are lined up to strike a FH down the line short side of court (Think if you are right handed and are behind and near your FH corner), then with you non-playing hand/arm, you pull inward, much like you are pulling the rope on a small engine to start it... this makes a little extra torso twist, and leverage, and turns both shoulder in that sequnce... the result is that now you got torso then shoulder twist (that free hand pull along with the torso moves both those shoulders) helping to drive the shot. Your bat face is now facing cross court and you have more eneergy generated and available to transfer to the ball.

    Kim Jung Hoon often explains this as the 70% / 80% power way. You are doing a step around FH and you strike the ball hard without going for max power falling down... this is 70% power. When you do the invisbale rope pull with free hand and get those shoulders going, it adds anther 10% energy and can really help.

    This last thing I explained (the free arm pull to get both shoulders going) is actually sound efficient biomechanics and good use of leverage.

    The mistake amateurs often make, as the two ladies in the vid explain, is where someone locks up their hitting shoulder and tries to moe it with everything locked up... that is poor biomechanics.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Kim Jung Hoon frequently talks about this as an adjustment in the swing where you are lined up to strike a FH down the line short side of court (Think if you are right handed and are behind and near your FH corner), then with you non-playing hand/arm, you pull inward, much like you are pulling the rope on a small engine to start it... this makes a little extra torso twist, and leverage, and turns both shoulder in that sequnce... the result is that now you got torso then shoulder twist (that free hand pull along with the torso moves both those shoulders) helping to drive the shot. Your bat face is now facing cross court and you have more eneergy generated and available to transfer to the ball.

    Kinda hard for me to understand, especially the free-arm part. I kinda know that free-arm gotta go along with playing arm somehow but this subtle thing is a bit confusing. If you could find the video I’d convert my “like” response to “love” 😂😂😂

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Kinda hard for me to understand, especially the free-arm part. I kinda know that free-arm gotta go along with playing arm somehow but this subtle thing is a bit confusing. If you could find the video I’d convert my “like” response to “love” 😂😂😂
    Please slow these to min-speed and have a look at 1:43:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ9nKEFSib8
    0:41, 0:48, 0:51, 1:43 (best)

    Other videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_8tEhY_Ck
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

    When he hits the ground with the right foot, the movement starts. Technically both hands start moving, but the free arm is there at start moving more, for you it feels as if the playing hand is still frozen, and the free-hand is already moving, like preceding...

    So you hit the ground, it goes to the leg, then hips start rotating, then upper body starts rotating, and with it the free-arm. It all happens at once. And for a short while it's like the playing-arm is not moving (well it is, but it feels as if not moving). And then when the upper-body is already rotated, the playing-arm shoots, like with a delay. And since it needs to make up for this delay, it shoots faster. I don't have more precise words.

    Btw. even though some people criticize TB for chicken-wing, this mechanics is also what he does perfectly, imo.

    Edit: I think this preceding happens also in usual top-spin, and gets more and more prominent as you add the power, like loop-kill on backspin.

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    Last edited by latej; 03-25-2021 at 04:15 PM.

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    #20
    Kim Jung Hoon, in his vids at some point during most of his one point lesson vids, repeatedly stresses how to use the free hand to help with the power, even on BH shots.

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    http://www.facebook.com/koreaforeignttc

    Janitor at NexyUSA TT Equipment Shop
    http://www.nexyusa.com

    View our Lame Nexy USA corporate FB page
    http://www.facebook.com/nexyusa

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