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  1. Tango K is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Please slow these to min-speed and have a look at 1:43:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ9nKEFSib8
    0:41, 0:48, 0:51, 1:43 (best)

    Other videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_8tEhY_Ck
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

    When he hits the ground with the right foot, the movement starts. Technically both hands start moving, but the free arm is there at start moving more, for you it feels as if the playing hand is still frozen, and the free-hand is already moving, like preceding...

    So you hit the ground, it goes to the leg, then hips start rotating, then upper body starts rotating, and with it the free-arm. It all happens at once. And for a short while it's like the playing-arm is not moving (well it is, but it feels as if not moving). And then when the upper-body is already rotated, the playing-arm shoots, like with a delay. And since it needs to make up for this delay, it shoots faster. I don't have more precise words.

    Btw. even though some people criticize TB for chicken-wing, this mechanics is also what he does perfectly, imo.

    Edit: I think this preceding happens also in usual top-spin, and gets more and more prominent as you add the power, like loop-kill on backspin.

    Lovely. I sorta got it. I was more about how that extra shoulder pull works. That 1.43 is quite amazing yeah.
    Regarding the arm “delay”, it’s secondary acceleration that we discussed in another thread with Zeio’s Chinese measurements of top players. In term of execution, all you gotta feel is that you rotate your body into the ball, then at the moment of contact (or to be precise, just before it), you snap the arm. It has to work like that yes.

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  2. latej is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Lovely. I sorta got it. I was more about how that extra shoulder pull works. That 1.43 is quite amazing yeah. Regarding the arm “delay”, it’s secondary acceleration that we discussed in another thread with Zeio’s Chinese measurements of top players. In term of execution, all you gotta feel is that you rotate your body into the ball, then at the moment of contact (or to be precise, just before it), you snap the arm. It has to work like that yes.
    My understanding of the extra shoulder-pull is that it is not really a pull. It can't be, there is nothing to hang on (in the sense of Achimedes "I shall move the earth"). Imo, it is just a motion caused by the preceding things in kinetic chain. There was a thread from IzetSpin2012, with great video, slow motion. I think people, including myself, disagreed with the explanation, but the video was great nonetheless. Can't find it.

    Here are two videos, An Jaehyun and Park Ganghyeon, both playing top-spin, you can see what the free-arm does. It is a bit more visible in An Jaehyun - it's like he moves the free-arm down, and then up. It is just his style, Ma Long does a bit differently. Anyways, this movement down is not like he does it really by his muscles, the impuls comes from the ground. It is significantly less visible in Park Ganghyeon (which is the reason I post), almost like there is no precesion, but it is not really missing in there neither. The transfer of energy is good. Still you can compare with Ma Long, pure beauty. You can see how he lets the arm fly (after rotation) like from itself. Wow...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7cbIGKfM7c (An Jaehyun)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfPr26DN_7g (Park Ganghyeon)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt2Pjf8Y54 (Ma Long)

    What I grapple with (among other things), is that when I try to achieve max speed (I mean of arm, which translates to spin (well, when the tangentiality of contact is correct (big thanks to those who pointed :-))), my hand is straight at contact. I never see myself with bent arm at elbow when I try to achieve max spin (against backspin). I'm not really sure it is optimal. I have a secret idea I'm gonna try :-)

    Edit: if you answer, please post the thread with Zeio...

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    Last edited by latej; 03-25-2021 at 09:53 PM.

  3. Tango K is offline
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    #23
    Hah hah. Seem like we share a playlist! I’ve got all these in my favourite as well!

    I couldn’t dig up the old post since it was a very elaborated discussion but I saw your name all over it. You might have forgotten. Basically broken-ball argues that that secondary acceleration is somehow not real and Zeio got a research proving that it exists. I can’t remember the details. I watched slowmo all the time so it was kinda so obvious that arm snapping is at the very last moment. I mean the coach taught that too 1 - 2 1 -2 body - snap body -snap.

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  4. thomas.pong is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Please slow these to min-speed and have a look at 1:43:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ9nKEFSib8
    0:41, 0:48, 0:51, 1:43 (best)

    Other videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_8tEhY_Ck
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

    When he hits the ground with the right foot, the movement starts. Technically both hands start moving, but the free arm is there at start moving more, for you it feels as if the playing hand is still frozen, and the free-hand is already moving, like preceding...

    So you hit the ground, it goes to the leg, then hips start rotating, then upper body starts rotating, and with it the free-arm. It all happens at once. And for a short while it's like the playing-arm is not moving (well it is, but it feels as if not moving). And then when the upper-body is already rotated, the playing-arm shoots, like with a delay. And since it needs to make up for this delay, it shoots faster. I don't have more precise words.

    Btw. even though some people criticize TB for chicken-wing, this mechanics is also what he does perfectly, imo.

    Edit: I think this preceding happens also in usual top-spin, and gets more and more prominent as you add the power, like loop-kill on backspin.
    Great stuff!

    I love how ML had his free arm/hand very close to where the ball is. Very helpful for footwork and timing, knowing where you should be in relation to the ball, how to twist your body and when to snap.

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  5. thomas.pong is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    My understanding of the extra shoulder-pull is that it is not really a pull. It can't be, there is nothing to hang on (in the sense of Achimedes "I shall move the earth"). Imo, it is just a motion caused by the preceding things in kinetic chain. There was a thread from IzetSpin2012, with great video, slow motion. I think people, including myself, disagreed with the explanation, but the video was great nonetheless. Can't find it.

    Here are two videos, An Jaehyun and Park Ganghyeon, both playing top-spin, you can see what the free-arm does. It is a bit more visible in An Jaehyun - it's like he moves the free-arm down, and then up. It is just his style, Ma Long does a bit differently. Anyways, this movement down is not like he does it really by his muscles, the impuls comes from the ground. It is significantly less visible in Park Ganghyeon (which is the reason I post), almost like there is no precesion, but it is not really missing in there neither. The transfer of energy is good. Still you can compare with Ma Long, pure beauty. You can see how he lets the arm fly (after rotation) like from itself. Wow...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7cbIGKfM7c (An Jaehyun)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfPr26DN_7g (Park Ganghyeon)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt2Pjf8Y54 (Ma Long)

    What I grapple with (among other things), is that when I try to achieve max speed (I mean of arm, which translates to spin (well, when the tangentiality of contact is correct (big thanks to those who pointed :-))), my hand is straight at contact. I never see myself with bent arm at elbow when I try to achieve max spin (against backspin). I'm not really sure it is optimal. I have a secret idea I'm gonna try :-)

    Edit: if you answer, please post the thread with Zeio...
    I think of it this way too, the shoulder just follows the body and the forearm, like a whip. And the shoulder goes around the right in a circle rather than up and out of place.

  6. zeio is offline
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    #26

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    #27
    Thanks, that's it. I remember now, I remember that I couldn't quite relate to the split into acceleration of lower-body and then upper-body. For me personally it feels more natural to split into acceleration of body and then arm. But I believe these are just different ways to describe the same thing now.

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    #28
    The reason I use upper body and lower body is because a kinetic chain is often described as upper or lower.

    https://www.verywellhealth.com/open-...c-chain-296949
    A kinetic chain can be described as either upper or lower. Kinetic chain exercises are either open or closed.
    https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...kinetic-chain/
    The upper kinetic chain consists of the fingers, wrists, forearms, elbows, upper arms, shoulders, shoulder blades, and spinal column. The lower kinetic chain includes the toes, feet, ankles, lower legs, knees, upper legs, hips, pelvis, and spine. In both chains, each joint is independently capable of a variety of movements. Dependent on whether the distal end of the chain is fixed or free to move without restriction, each movement is classified as either closed or open.
    https://meridian.allenpress.com/jat/...-Into-Shoulder
    Additionally, clinical experts advise incorporating the kinetic chain into shoulder rehabilitation exercises7,9,10 because upper extremity performance does not depend on a single shoulder-joint movement but rather on sequenced activation of the lower to the upper kinetic chain.2,3,7

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  9. latej is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    The reason I use upper body and lower body is because a kinetic chain is often described as upper or lower.

    https://www.verywellhealth.com/open-...c-chain-296949


    https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...kinetic-chain/


    https://meridian.allenpress.com/jat/...-Into-Shoulder
    Makes perfect sense, when the lower and upper chains are defined like that. It is the same thing. Here is another video from TTNuri, where he uses much more adept words than I did. In 4.07:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItdOuGOWRn8

    "... while the angular velocity of the torso suddenly decelerates as the momentum is transmitted to the arm through the shoulder joint. And because of the delivered momentum, the right arm accelerates faster."

    Edit: when I quoted, important parts of your post got lost. Adding:

    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    The upper kinetic chain consists of the fingers, wrists, forearms, elbows, upper arms, shoulders, shoulder blades, and spinal column. The lower kinetic chain includes the toes, feet, ankles, lower legs, knees, upper legs, hips, pelvis, and spine. In both chains, each joint is independently capable of a variety of movements. Dependent on whether the distal end of the chain is fixed or free to move without restriction, each movement is classified as either closed or open.
    Last edited by latej; 03-28-2021 at 08:27 PM.

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    #30
    Great subject, Der Echte, as always. This helps emphasises what my coaches been trying to tell me these past months, I finally understand what all 5 of them been talking about. I didn't really get it what they were telling me, due to lack of further explanation and full picture what it was all about.

    Been doing shadow practices this past few days while in quarantine at my hotel room, with some other's recommendations here.

    Many thanks to all for your ideas, explanations and discussions.

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