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  1. vombi is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Excellent review as well Vombi! Thanks for your contributions as a newer member to the forum.

    I think "better" is relative, what is better for you might not be for another player, whether he/she is lower, higher or same level as you. Of course, there's no doubt that T19 is better in terms of performance than rubbers like T80 FX or Rozena but only if you have the level and preference to tame it.

    I'm not that seasoned of a player honestly, more of a seasoned equipment tester! lol. The more I think about it, the more I think it comes down to ease of use in order to generate desired performance. Feel is a part of that, but the ability to generate performance easily and confidently is primordial. With that in mind, with a more demanding blade like Viscaria, I think T80 FX or Rozena might be better suited on it on the BH for me, whereas I'd favor 05/80 on the FH or even on the BH of easier blades.

    Question for you and others, out of T19, T80 and T64, which do you feel has the most ease of use? Like getting into the sponge, safety, forgiveness, stays on the table... especially on the BH.

    Cheers!

    Well thank you Thomas! When ever I write a review a try to mention all aspects that are important, but also not to overwrite and make it to long or to complicated. I am a member of TTD a long time , about 5 years now, but didn't make the time to be active, so I'm making an effort to correct that

    You are absolutely right when saying that term "better" is relative, I couldn't agree more. And indeed I used that term in a sense that T19 is better performer than other two mentioned rubbers, but is T19 "better" rubber for you, or anyone else, is very relative and depends on many factors such as technical skill or personal preference... Feel and confidence that certain rubber or blade inspires should be on top of that list. Generating performance easily is important, but as I see it , should be right on the edge of ones capability's, so one shouldn't stay in comfort zone, and challenge him/her self, and by doing so keep improving.

    As for Your question, out of three mentioned rubbers which has the most ease of use, again can befouled under same "relative" category For me personally, it is T19, because of its new and improved top sheet, which is very grippy. But that doesn't necessarily mean, to use your words, that it might be the same for another player. So accept that with a dose of relativity

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  2. brokenball is offline
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    #22
    It is all opinion.
    Why not shoot a TT ball at a paddle in a vice and look at the difference in the rebound?
    Don't give opinions, if you show one ball bounce farther and at a different angle, it is easy to see which rubber is faster and will create more spin.

    As far as softness goes. Why not cut out a 1 cm^2 section from the trimmings and put weights on it to see how far one compresses relative to the other?

    In the end it is a matter of what you can do with one rubber that you can't with another rubber but this must be weighted by the frequency these small difference matter. I would rather play with anything that is best for getting trough the first 4 strokes over some new super duper rubber that fails in this area.
    I want a rubber that is good for serving, returning serve and makes it easy to open aggressively.

    BTW, control is a function of the human. You can give t05 to a noob and a clip board to an experienced player and guess who wins?




  3. zeio is offline
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    #23
    Is that a joke? That's exactly what a review is, a comment about something. What you describe is a *bleep* experiment. No *bleep* human plays like that. Get that *bleep* engineer's perspective out of your head, man.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Review#User_review
    A user review refers to a review written by a user or consumer of a product or a service based on her experience as a user of the reviewed product...A consumer review of a product usually comments on how well the product measures up to expectations based on the specifications provided by the manufacturer or seller.

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    Last edited by zeio; 03-25-2021 at 06:59 AM.
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  4. thomas.pong is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    It is all opinion.Why not shoot a TT ball at a paddle in a vice and look at the difference in the rebound?Don't give opinions, if you show one ball bounce farther and at a different angle, it is easy to see which rubber is faster and will create more spin.As far as softness goes. Why not cut out a 1 cm^2 section from the trimmings and put weights on it to see how far one compresses relative to the other?In the end it is a matter of what you can do with one rubber that you can't with another rubber but this must be weighted by the frequency these small difference matter. I would rather play with anything that is best for getting trough the first 4 strokes over some new super duper rubber that fails in this area.I want a rubber that is good for serving, returning serve and makes it easy to open aggressively.BTW, control is a function of the human. You can give t05 to a noob and a clip board to an experienced player and guess who wins?
    BB, you make some good points, per usual, and some bad points, also per usual.

    Like Zeio pointed out, a user review is just that, and it has its value.

    What you describe is a quantitative experiment to determine quality, which would prove useful as well.

    You keep making the same point, and I would love for you to do the work and show us the all valuable data. You've said many times it would be fast and easy, why not start a little blog, site or the likes like TTGear Lab but with your own measurements?

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    Last edited by thomas.pong; 03-25-2021 at 01:42 PM.

  5. brokenball is offline
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    #25

    This video is basically a repeat of the video below.
    The comments about trajectory were identical. However, both rubbers could generate the same trajectory. The trajectory is determined by the impulse applied to the ball. Both rubbers can generate the same impulse. The comments about dwell time or holding the ball on the paddle are bogus. You can't feel the difference of a few microseconds even if you are Timo Boll. No one has yet explained what is necessary to length the "dwell time". "Dwell time" is such a bad word because it implies the ball is just sitting there when in fact is is always decelerating after impact until the velocity is zero then accelerates in the opposite direction away from the paddle. The ball does not really "dwell" except for certain conditions that no one has explained yet.

    Zeio should know I don't joke.
    Zeio still need to explain now reduced mass applies to TT.

    T19 is just another admission that Butterfly either didn't get it right the first time or they are selling inferior stuff now just to take advantage of ignorant TT players that think equipment is the answer.

    It is the impulse that determines the trajectory of the ball. T05, D05, T19, Rakza xx, Rasanter xx can all generate the same impulse but it may take a slightly different stroke but people are adaptable..


  6. thomas.pong is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball

    This video is basically a repeat of the video below.
    The comments about trajectory were identical. However, both rubbers could generate the same trajectory. The trajectory is determined by the impulse applied to the ball. Both rubbers can generate the same impulse. The comments about dwell time or holding the ball on the paddle are bogus. You can't feel the difference of a few microseconds even if you are Timo Boll. No one has yet explained what is necessary to length the "dwell time". "Dwell time" is such a bad word because it implies the ball is just sitting there when in fact is is always decelerating after impact until the velocity is zero then accelerates in the opposite direction away from the paddle. The ball does not really "dwell" except for certain conditions that no one has explained yet.

    Zeio should know I don't joke.
    Zeio still need to explain now reduced mass applies to TT.

    T19 is just another admission that Butterfly either didn't get it right the first time or they are selling inferior stuff now just to take advantage of ignorant TT players that think equipment is the answer.

    It is the impulse that determines the trajectory of the ball. T05, D05, T19, Rakza xx, Rasanter xx can all generate the same impulse but it may take a slightly different stroke but people are adaptable..

    Man vs. Machine... as if ball feel as nothing to do with the game and we're all so adaptable, just turn a few buttons on the back of the head and you're calibrated and good to go. If you want to measure dwell or anything else, go for it, I'd love to see it, no one's trying to do it in their head, they're just relating a feeling, which is some measure, however flawed, personal or abstract. Timo or Brian's feelings seem to produce results when they're playing.

    You always talk about Butterfly "getting it right" or not the first time around. We all know what's right/good for one person is not for everyone. Suppose "getting it right" is "getting it right again but different" however small or big the differences, to give people more options, whether they really need them or not is for them to figure out. Again, bottom line, equipment is not the answer, practice to sharpen your technique is, but equipment plays a small yet important part in that. Like you say, since you need a slightly different stroke with different rubbers to generate the same impulse, then with the same stroke these rubbers would generate slightly different impulses, which plays a part in a fast sport played with a small and light spinny ball on a small table.

    PS: Brian's video came out first. Timo's seems fairly honest (too). They differ on some points, and it comes down to how these rubbers feel and how they perform for them and how they might suit other people's preferences.

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    Last edited by thomas.pong; 03-26-2021 at 08:45 AM.

  7. vombi is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    It is all opinion.
    Why not shoot a TT ball at a paddle in a vice and look at the difference in the rebound?
    Don't give opinions, if you show one ball bounce farther and at a different angle, it is easy to see which rubber is faster and will create more spin.

    As far as softness goes. Why not cut out a 1 cm^2 section from the trimmings and put weights on it to see how far one compresses relative to the other?

    In the end it is a matter of what you can do with one rubber that you can't with another rubber but this must be weighted by the frequency these small difference matter. I would rather play with anything that is best for getting trough the first 4 strokes over some new super duper rubber that fails in this area.
    I want a rubber that is good for serving, returning serve and makes it easy to open aggressively.

    BTW, control is a function of the human. You can give t05 to a noob and a clip board to an experienced player and guess who wins


    Well, although control is function of the human, it is not function of human only, but a synergy of human and equipment. Different equipment requires different levels of technical skill and different levels of effort. For example, hard and fast blades are much harder to control then softer or slower ones, its the same story with rubbers, some are very easy to use while others require professional technique...

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  8. brokenball is offline
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    #28
    Control requires feedback. Equipment has none. A paddle with a high COR is like a motion control system with a high open loop gain. This is compensated for by lowering the gain of the controller. In other words the player needs to have finer feedback and touch to play the close game. Yes, equipment matters but the equipment itself does not have control. The player must adjust his "gains" to adapt to the equipment. In a motion control system the motor and load ( ball and paddle ) do not have control. There is a motion controller ( player ) with feedback that control the motion. The motion controller requires gains to be "tuned" to get the desired results.





  9. vombi is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Control requires feedback. Equipment has none. A paddle with a high COR is like a motion control system with a high open loop gain. This is compensated for by lowering the gain of the controller. In other words the player needs to have finer feedback and touch to play the close game. Yes, equipment matters but the equipment itself does not have control. The player must adjust his "gains" to adapt to the equipment. In a motion control system the motor and load ( ball and paddle ) do not have control. There is a motion controller ( player ) with feedback that control the motion. The motion controller requires gains to be "tuned" to get the desired results.

    Well, it's basically what I said, some equipment is easier to adapt then others for majority of players with different skill levels... So, equipment does matter. Actually, it is wrong to say equipment doesn't have different levels of control , it would be like saying that different cars doesn't have different levels of handling, and we know there are a lot of factors that influences handling such as suspension, type of tires, type of steering etc It is exactly the same with tt equipment, just like handling of a car is not merely reflection of drivers skill, tt eq is not merely reflection of player skill...

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    Last edited by vombi; 03-31-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  10. zeio is offline
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    #30
    I stopped reading after "Control requires feedback. Equipment has none." I can't believe it came out of the mouth of an engineer, who actually demands people run an experiment, which is an open-loop control system, over a human review, which is a closed-loop control system. 🤮

    For those wondering, there are 2 types of control system - open loop(feedforward) and closed loop(feedback). Open loop feeds the input forward directly to the output without any processing, whereas closed loop feeds the output back into the input to correct for errors. The experiment described by hard-headed engineer earlier is an open-loop control system, where the machine shoots a ball at a stationary racket. It may not have correction, but the robot does have control - preset velocity, angle, placement etc. The same applies for the racket. You shoot a ball at this velocity and at this angle, it will return the ball at a certain velocity and at a certain angle - that's control there.

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