Don't Move that Elbow and Upper Arm All Around You !!

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A lot of amateur TT players, when learning a BH topspin vs underspin, seem to be in love with moving their upper arm and elbow all over the place during the stroke. It really takes away from the explosion and control.

Some amateur players move that upper arm and elbow all around like they wanna do the Hokey Pokey.

Every time the ex-pro dude coach shows the bio-mechanics, he gets his elbow and upper arm to place and they stop, then he explodes with lower arm upwards and forward. Coach even says you should feel like you swinging up. (even though it is lower arm moving up and forward) Coach keeps tellin gher to not raise the shoulder. Coach keeps telling lady to NOT try to use strength to make racket go from side to side as teh follow through action will do tha anyway, but she should focus on and up and forward lower arm movement.

She starts the BH practice at around 2:00
 
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Great video!

Even though I don't understand Korean, the coach is so good at showing the correct and wrong movements from different angles that it's easy to understand what he's teaching.

Her FH is looking very good, not much shoulder there, good use of the forearm. Her BH is another story obviously, and it doesn't get better until the last 30 seconds of the video after the coach told her to use her legs more and curve her back, then use her hips, abs and forearm to lift the ball instead of the shoulder, so she can generate more spin and power and finish in front of her.
 
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Yes, the coach is good and he shows the right movements.
In the club where I play this is an issue in the last weeks: how to prevent moving arm and elbow all around instead of focusing on releasing the wrist at the moment of contact with the ball, and let the racket do the movement going over the ball.

But I have a more deep question about that, and until now I did not find an answer: what could coaches really do better to let players really understand and improve the technics? I mean: of course you should explain and show, but most of the times this does not help alone. Of course you need a lot of practice, hours and hours and balls of trainings. But what could coaches insert tricks or other methods to help players? It is like when we say again and again to youngs or children how to do things or how to behave but then they continue doing always same mistakes for a long time. Coaches, trainers, educators don't need only to explain always errors, which is of course important (don't get me wrong), but the best coaches are the ones who let you understand with different methods what's wrong, and when you understand what's wrong yourself, you can correct that.

The lady in the video faces the risk to do the movement like a robot. She could that thousands and thousands of time, maybe not understanding what she is doing. And maybe she will get at same point. But she risks not to fully understand the trick. This is what she needs. How can her coach really help her to feel that?

How could in general coaches really feel that moment of understanding the keys of technics? In my (poor) opinion, this is the real question in learning and teaching the techniques of our sport. Am I wrong? Would love to hear about that.
 
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Energetic video!

Different people learn differently. But repetitive fast multiball (or feeding by blocking) improves techniques really fast. I’ve seen this in my friends. If you talk too much and too lengthy, you overcomplicate things. That’s outside the table. I’ve seen it not working as well. (I did both 2 my friends as well).

The key is focus. As a learner I do the same as what I tell my partners. You have to keep your mind FOCUS on that point you want to fix CONTINUOUSLY. (Which is why coaches often say it while feeding the ball - like leg leg leg or forward forward forward or now now now -timing. I do the same to myself very loudly in my club). This is very problematic for adult learners, believe it or not. (Most think they are focusing but actually just not enough)

Whether the trainee gets it or not you have to observe. Some may speak like they do but they actually don’t and most don’t tend to speak (which makes them look like doing things like robots. But if you observe enough, you’ll know that it goes rather fast into their head.)

Talk in small pieces and force them to focus is the key.
 
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manu,

You point about how much explaination (and tango chimes in on this too) is needed and how much repetitive practice is needed is a question both coaches and players must ask.

Adult learners will learn totally differently than young kids.

There is always the question of how much knowledge of the stroke and technique are needed to perform it right. Some coaches front load that, then go into reps, then try to correct some as player does the reps. Some coaches give just a brief showing of technique and go straight into the reps with the mindset of knowing the player must feel it for herself and knowing the player will not get it right. The goal with that approach is that over time, the player will discover little by little and "get there".

The adult player I work with plays above the average club player level, but for decades, never struck the ball for creating spin, just to pound it. Despite my wishes that I give the best explaination, that I provide the most effective demonstration of the shot, that I can say a whole bunch of different things to get the message in that space between a person's ears... despite all that, the reality is... that the player isn't really gunna get there today, nor tomarrow, nor next week. It takes time.

Coaches and players have to figure out a balance of how to get there.

I am more inclined to take more time early on explaining, demonstrating, and reinforcing before I go into heavy reps. I personally believe that adults must have a baseline understanding of the shot execution and biomechanics BEFORE any heavy reps will have a benefit. I also believe strongly in how footwork, movement to ball, achieving position on time, on balance, ready with a plan on a sunconscious level and how that ties into making the shot and the next one is real important.

We can say too much of this multiball practice turns us into a robot, but IF and I say IF a player has a grip on the foundational concepts and has enough fundamentals developed, a player CAN benefit HUGELY from this kind of repetitive training.

WHY? I feel and believe that in TT, one must be able to be aware and function on a subconscious level. I believe there is not enough time to see, thing, decide, and take action - that takes too long. I believe that being able to perfom those things effectively on a subconscious level makes a player much more decisive and quick to act. This type of practice builds good footwork and biomechanics, as well as getting to the position on time on balance ready with a plan for the shot and the possible next ones. It is very valuable.

I can tell you personally, if you look at the other multiball vid I posted in the Korean Tourney Pic where KNT AJH is feeding multiball to an elite schoolgirl and young boy, you can see when you get more advanced, how much the Korean coaches stress footwork over ball striking, but still get on you for the misses. This repetitive traing has SOME immediate benefit, but my personal encounter with this kind of training (I entered Korea one level above ave club level as a rec player with zero footwork) and did this stuff for 4 years with coaches showing very little in terms of stroke, some up front 95% single or multiball reps... I can say that the majority of the benefit was achieved YEARS LATER.

When I was in Korea, I was mostly 190 lbs 40+ yr old dude in outstanding physical condition, I could run up that hill, be the first one up there and all the way up cuss my Soldiers out for being young and slower than me. I could get to this ball and this ball to my FH after a few years of training like in the vid in the Korean Pics thread... however, a decade later, last year, in spring 2020, I was 245 lbs and moved around the court WAY BETTER than I ever did in Korea and get to balls and make plays on them that would have surely been lost points 10 yrs ago... and I have been retired and done ZERO physical training in the morning in the last 7 yrs. I mean zero. If you had to get up at 5 AM every day to do morning exercie under the supervison and cruel command of total sociopath narrcisistic jokers with teh goal of ruining you, you would want to take ahuge pause in exercise too.

When I went to Korean schools to see how the hired pro coaches operate, I was SHOCKED. I was expecting the pro coach to have all this high speed presentation/demonstration of how to do this shot and that and the training was 180 degrees different. It was SIMPLE drills, like serve, FH, BH, Falkenberg done OVER and OVER and OVER with practice matches done in an existing multipurpose room with questionable lighting without expensive equipment. Korean pro coaches have proven ways and I saw a few of those... and it wasn't what I was expecting for that kind of training.
 
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The challenges for adult learners are even more... there are constraints and personal objectives that do not immediately lead to success. Not all players want to become T. Boll, many are happy just to play average, sme are happy to play a coule levels better.

With every situation and choice, there are consequences. With every decision to do this or that, there are trade-offs. There is no single correct way in TT, so say the Korean pro coaches and I gotta agree.

In reality, boots on the ground, we gotta deal with the cards we got and over time replace them. You don't get issued a new deck of cards your first week or next. This is the challenge and mark of an effective coach for adult players. How well can the coach get the player to use what is there, refine it, make it effective and get player to be effective without break/rebuild.
 
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More spcifically to the BH topspin vs underspin... or in general about ball striking...

KNOWING the effective biomechanics is important.

SEEING how it is done is important.

KNOWING how this interfaces with your game and plan of attack is important.

KNOWING how to adjust timing, swing, strike point, depth of zone and impact for imperfect position or imperfect judgement of incoming ball are important

KNOWING what things waste energy and knowing what sequence of explosions create, amplify and transfer power are uber important.

DEVELOPING the footwork and balance to get into position to use effective leverage to make the shot and get going back to the next position on time on balance ready to strike is important.

*** These are a good chunk of important foundational concepts that apply to every shot. ***

Knowing that chicken winging elbow and moving it along with upper arm during the shot reduces leverage, reduces power, reduces spin, reduces accuracy and consistency... knowing that kind of stuff is real important.

So many coaches in USA will not spot some things that coaches in COACHING 101 should be able to spot and correct is absolutely mind boggling to me. It motivates me to be strong in that are and do my best to convince my fellow man and woman... but still, since there is no single correct way in TT, I believe I should understand that, but focus on possible effective wayS.
 
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manu,

You point about how much explaination (and tango chimes in on this too) is needed and how much repetitive practice is needed is a question both coaches and players must ask.

Adult learners will learn totally differently than young kids.

There is always the question of how much knowledge of the stroke and technique are needed to perform it right. Some coaches front load that, then go into reps, then try to correct some as player does the reps. Some coaches give just a brief showing of technique and go straight into the reps with the mindset of knowing the player must feel it for herself and knowing the player will not get it right. The goal with that approach is that over time, the player will discover little by little and "get there".

The adult player I work with plays above the average club player level, but for decades, never struck the ball for creating spin, just to pound it. Despite my wishes that I give the best explaination, that I provide the most effective demonstration of the shot, that I can say a whole bunch of different things to get the message in that space between a person's ears... despite all that, the reality is... that the player isn't really gunna get there today, nor tomarrow, nor next week. It takes time.

Coaches and players have to figure out a balance of how to get there.

I am more inclined to take more time early on explaining, demonstrating, and reinforcing before I go into heavy reps. I personally believe that adults must have a baseline understanding of the shot execution and biomechanics BEFORE any heavy reps will have a benefit. I also believe strongly in how footwork, movement to ball, achieving position on time, on balance, ready with a plan on a sunconscious level and how that ties into making the shot and the next one is real important.

We can say too much of this multiball practice turns us into a robot, but IF and I say IF a player has a grip on the foundational concepts and has enough fundamentals developed, a player CAN benefit HUGELY from this kind of repetitive training.

WHY? I feel and believe that in TT, one must be able to be aware and function on a subconscious level. I believe there is not enough time to see, thing, decide, and take action - that takes too long. I believe that being able to perfom those things effectively on a subconscious level makes a player much more decisive and quick to act. This type of practice builds good footwork and biomechanics, as well as getting to the position on time on balance ready with a plan for the shot and the possible next ones. It is very valuable.

I can tell you personally, if you look at the other multiball vid I posted in the Korean Tourney Pic where KNT AJH is feeding multiball to an elite schoolgirl and young boy, you can see when you get more advanced, how much the Korean coaches stress footwork over ball striking, but still get on you for the misses. This repetitive traing has SOME immediate benefit, but my personal encounter with this kind of training (I entered Korea one level above ave club level as a rec player with zero footwork) and did this stuff for 4 years with coaches showing very little in terms of stroke, some up front 95% single or multiball reps... I can say that the majority of the benefit was achieved YEARS LATER.

When I was in Korea, I was mostly 190 lbs 40+ yr old dude in outstanding physical condition, I could run up that hill, be the first one up there and all the way up cuss my Soldiers out for being young and slower than me. I could get to this ball and this ball to my FH after a few years of training like in the vid in the Korean Pics thread... however, a decade later, last year, in spring 2020, I was 245 lbs and moved around the court WAY BETTER than I ever did in Korea and get to balls and make plays on them that would have surely been lost points 10 yrs ago... and I have been retired and done ZERO physical training in the morning in the last 7 yrs. I mean zero. If you had to get up at 5 AM every day to do morning exercie under the supervison and cruel command of total sociopath narrcisistic jokers with teh goal of ruining you, you would want to take ahuge pause in exercise too.

When I went to Korean schools to see how the hired pro coaches operate, I was SHOCKED. I was expecting the pro coach to have all this high speed presentation/demonstration of how to do this shot and that and the training was 180 degrees different. It was SIMPLE drills, like serve, FH, BH, Falkenberg done OVER and OVER and OVER with practice matches done in an existing multipurpose room with questionable lighting without expensive equipment. Korean pro coaches have proven ways and I saw a few of those... and it wasn't what I was expecting for that kind of training.

I totally agree with you. Time is absolutely a key factor mainly in adults. TIme is needed to fully understand, and have a suboconscious level, of this very complicate sport!

But my question is: apart from words (explaining technics, more or less in the beginning, or whatever...), apart from repetition, I wanted to ask if coaches in general could think about innovative ways of getting the body (meaning arms, elbows, feet, BRAIN) to get glimpes of good techniques and good performances of strokes and rallies?
I try to make an example: in our club we often face situations where players (attacking players), when get attacked, come away from the table and tend to stay there, leaving in defense situations. To avoid this behaviour, our coach make them training with barriers just behind them. I know this is a stupid example: but this is what I meant, and for sure you know and understand the benefits of getting trained with these obstacles. It works, not for everybody of course, but mainly it works.

That was the intention of my question: how could coaches develop IDEAS which go over the classics to help improving? Just a matter of which tools we have at disposal... Maybe there are many, and simply I don't know them since I am not a coach....

But generally I agree with your reflections...

 
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manu,

The number 1 thing Korean coaches do is setup the training table where the player has a wall one meter behind them and they MUST stay at the table. If no wall available, they put a couple barriers behing you. After a while, these are taken away, especially when you do the complex footwork explosive shot combinations that require more space.
 
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manu,

The number 1 thing Korean coaches do is setup the training table where the player has a wall one meter behind them and they MUST stay at the table. If no wall available, they put a couple barriers behing you. After a while, these are taken away, especially when you do the complex footwork explosive shot combinations that require more space.


Well Kreanga can have many walls behind him at 1 meter only, he will still be able to perform huge spinny powerfull BH loops with his signature "all around the body" stroke.

 
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Music&Ping;342074 said:

Well Kreanga can have many walls behind him at 1 meter only, he will still be able to perform huge spinny powerfull BH loops with his signature "all around the body" stroke.

Feel free to emulate Kreanga. He was pretty amazing. He had, particularly an amazing BH. However, it is worth noting how few people can do what he did, and how many top pros today have BHs that are pretty close to as effective with much smaller, more EFFICIENT BH strokes. And, interestingly, the more compact, more efficient stroke is safer for your SHOULDER JOINT.


BTW: Kreanga's BH technique was amazing and I am not sure I would say his shoulder went all over the place the way lower level players trying to take big strokes like that end up doing. Also BTW: Ma Long's FH stroke is quite big, but his shoulder does not go all over the place and the technique is very efficient too. So you can have a big stroke that uses the shoulder joint but where the shoulder joint does not go all over the place. And that might not be what Der is talking about.

 
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BTW: this is the biomechanic in me talking:

Kreanga:

a94d21af7c7511bfe55e7d86957574b3.jpg


SHOULDER DEFINITELY NOT ELEVATED. Have a look at how relaxed his shoulder is and how much space there is between his neck and shoulder.

a6f4d36edd922fb3ff8260da6927b43d.jpg


SHOULDER ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY ELEVATED. And from a biomechanical standpoint that is an inefficient movement that WILL damage your shoulder.

The reason this is problematic is she is replacing movement that should come FROM THE GLENOHUMERAL JOINT and replacing it with movement from the acromioclavicular joint and the sternoclavicular joint WHERE THE MOVEMENT should not come from. You could also look at her upper back and see how her scapula on the right is poking out a little, that is also a result of the replacement movements in the acromioclavicular and sternoclavicular joints.

These issues are also why you can see all that tension in her neck and shoulder.

So, it would be worth analyzing footage before you try to sound like you know what you are talking about when you actually are comparing apples to radicchio.


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland
 
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Manu,

I saw an interview he did in English and there is SOMETHING(s) from that interview that would greatly benefit us amateur players.

Kreanga said that no matter how great his BH is... if he wins the point with it, fine.... but he expects the ball to come back... and he says it is best to expect the ball coming back and finish the point with the FOREHAND.

This should have us amateurs expecting ball back, be ready with stance, balance position, step in and FH finish. I do not think there is a coach alive today who would go against that attitude.
 
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As for Korean pros to emulate in terms of a flexible BH that is just as much pressure as Kreanga.... Kim Jung Hoon and Lee Sang Soo... they both think the same way, BH to pressure or win, but expect to win it with the FH.

Maybe better for us is Oh Sang Uhn and Vladimir Samsonov kind of BH... it isn't just their BH... it is position and readiness and consistency to we amateur players would just LOVE to have in our games.
 
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That reminds of the following.

For China, the BH has undoubtedly gained more weight in recent years, but the central philosophy of "反手得勢,正手得分(lead with BH, score with FH)" still dictates.
 
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Kreanga said that no matter how great his BH is... if he wins the point with it, fine.... but he expects the ball to come back... and he says it is best to expect the ball coming back and finish the point with the FOREHAND.
Well I guess his arm was definitely ready for a HUGE transition then !

By the way, no matter how many BH he had to do, it was ok to him. And I stand corrected: this video shows it was only the natural shoulder joint limitation that prevent him from having that arm going all around his body hahaha

 
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Music&Ping;342096 said:
Well I guess his arm was definitely ready for a HUGE transition then !

By the way, no matter how many BH he had to do, it was ok to him. And I stand corrected: this video shows it was only the natural shoulder joint limitation that prevent him from having that arm going all around his body hahaha
I've watched this video before, can't get enough of it!

He's definitely keeping his elbow down most of the time and rotating is forearm around it with a big movement and snap, it's very classic except for the large motion, loaded with spin and often with a lot of power too! The crazy part is how consistent he was/is with it, I wonder if him being short has something to do with it.

 
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The lady in the video I linked , Jung Da-Young, definitely has a lot of inefficient movement on bottom topspin vs light underpin. Luckily, she isn't using a lot of explosion or power, so damage to shoulder wouldn't be so severe.

She does not stabilize the upper arm and shoulder before the big part of the stroke. She raises the shoulder and is likely tightening it up. She moves the hitting shoulder around doing the shot.

Result is that:

She loses leverage
She loses power
She stops the energy by tightening shoulder
She has to make the power again with shoulder
She ultimately loses power, spin, and control... also recovery

Optimally, and her coach shows her, is that motion is started with both upper and lower arm moving, once upper arm is in position, then player must STOP the movement of upper arm and shoulder while still being relaxed, she the elbow may be a pivot hinge... and lower arm goes forward and now can be impulsed, should and upper arm stay put and add leverage with legs hips solid base... wrist follows through and for max xfer of power, firm grip right at impact.

Coach only shows and is not breaking it down to the terms I describe. What you see with the Korean coach is typical, they don't go too far explaining biomechanics. Kim Jung Hoon does and that is one reason why he is a great coach for amateurs. 5hat is why I link his vids often and translate key areas.

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