says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
HI All,
Background and situation first, then a way to handle this ball next with a BH topspin response.
I have a dude I am working with to improve his TT, especially learning how to spin after decades of flat hit going slap happy. He has a real difficult time with this ball... and I see so many club players struggle with this too... SO... I wuld think this would be a very valid and applicable topic to address.
Like many players, when I give him a long underspin that lands middle depth on the table and would go a foot or so before dropping below table level, he has the easier time making an opening loop in terms of spin and quality. I believe this would be true for anyone. I frequently tell my doubles partners that a push landing middle depth on table is the EASIEST ball for any attacker to recognize, see, and have lots of time to prepare and successfully attack strongly.
When I take the ball off the bounce and give him a fast, deep underspin to his BH... dude feels rushed... he leans back and as he tries to strike the ball, is falling back... ends up impacting the ball 4 ft off table and shot lands maybe 10 percent of the time.
When I ask what happened, he says he needed more time and the ball already so quickly got all into his space faster than he was ready to finish his stroke.
What Der_Echte says is happeneing here is not just one, but several things happening:
- Player did NOT recognize a fast push is about to be made (Timing Perception Issue)
- Player did NOT recognize ball is coming deep to BH corner (Depth Perception issue)
- Player is trying to use the USUAL BH topspin vs underspin, which is a long stroke that takes time (Timing to Impact Issue)
- Player MIGHT be crowding the table a bit (Potential Position Issue)
- Player MIGHT be coming out of crouch early (Potential Balance/Stance Issue)
Although the last 2 issues MIGHT also be happening, let us pretend the player was crouched ready and positioned a 30-40 cm off the table... and let's address how to deal with the first three issues, since the way to fix the last 2 is real simple.
Issue #1 - Player simply does NOT see a fast ball coming (and is now rushed and in PANIC mode)
Remendy #1 - Player should do a TINY quick knee bend right at MOMENT of impact... this will allow player to see the impact... and have a very quick responce to it intuitively. There is a huge advantage to your first step when you do this... it is almost like you are gaining a lot of time. Another aspect is recognition that player is impacting ball very early off the bounce with a stroke - this is soften a big clue you are gunna get a fast deep underspin ball. Player should be ready to see what speed of ball is about to come into his zone.
Issue #2 - Player did NOT recognize ball is coming DEEP to the BH.
Remedy #2 - Player should know how early and with what stroke is gunna produce which speed of ball... that will tell player the depth on table where ball will bounce. This is a skill acquired over time, but very important. If #1 and #2 are not helping the player out, then the player can adapt with remedy #3
Issue #3 - Player is trying to use the regular BH topspsin vs underspin stroke that takes some time to do... and is LATE.
Note on #3 - Player does not recognize the timing of ball arrival and has committed to the regular long swing that takes time. Normally, there is PLENTY of time for this swing, and it would be the right stroke choice for a slow incoming underspin. In this situation, player should do four key things.
Remedy #3 - See the four things below and the expalainations: First the general then the specific.
- DO NOT start stroke too early. (and do not select the long stroke - this is where everyone gets in truble) Real Important. You still have time. There is a certain dance cadence to use to handle such a ball... and it is TOTALLY OPPOSITE to the kind of timing and visualization used to handle a slower long underspin ball. This is why it is real difficult for amateurs to handle this shot.
- DO a MODIFIED and SIMPLIFIED Timing of the ball. So an opponent does a real fast underspin right at your BH... don't panic, just use your space and time your quick crouch DOWN and UP (it should feel down and up, even if you are using some forward swing motion) (The down and up are your legs/knees/waist) (and it is not as much of a dip as you would think)
- Use a SHORTER stroke leveraged with your legs and waist. This would be a "Short Hip" in Korean TT speak. You are making a quick and short impulse with a tiny explosion of the legs/hip using them to create energy, amplify it, leverage it, and use your lower arm/hand to further amplify and transfer that energy.
- MANAGE the space in front of you - you can handle that fast ball if you are a manager of close space
How to NOT swing too early under time pressure? Recognition, then lots of PRACTICE. Doing that tiny knee bend will give you the best chance to see a fast ball incoming. Getting someone to feed you the fast under spin multiball fashion is good start, then later single ball random slow and fast mixed up.
What is this timing? Think and act real simple. as ball is coming down before bounce, you crouch down. DO NOT try to crouch down as far as you normally do for a slower long underspin. The crouch could be 5 cm... believe it or not, you can still make a lot of energy with that crouch and the right timing. When ball is now hit your end of table, explode up and unleash that shorter compact stroke with a feeling of down and up leveraged with the hip. You can eiher go real soft on grip at impact to bring back a slower, safer ball, or go full firm at impact to make a powerful return, which can also be very high landing percentage. So, simply stated, go down a little as ball is coming at you (only a little, there is little time here) and go up (and do your compact stroke) once ball lands.
- Note on stroke... you are NOT dipping the bat way down, like you would to make a slow heavy underspin, you are keeping it by your side and dipping the bat only as much as you are dipping waist, which isn't much. You need to be able to bring that bat into play in a short time frame... bat positioned slightly to the side and a tiny down allows you to get it into action quickly.
How to manage space? Visualize your BH stroke as a rolling drum kind of thing in front of you. For this, you require 30 cm or so of space in front. So, if a ball comes at you, as long as you have that 30 cm of space behind the table and you do not rush, but instead, use a more compact quick stroke, you have enough room to make the stroke WITHOUT feeling like you are being pushed backwards to make a play. This visualiztion is BIG TIME. If you are still crouched, see a fast ball incoming, and do not panic, you can instantly adapt by using the compact stroke with the down and up timing watching hte ball fall and impact as your timing cues.
I would post a vid demonstrating this, but the players around me are TERRIBLE at pushing underspin with precision of spin and placement... and the dude I help out has never really pushed much in his life, or done it well. That will come with time. He has decided to learn topspin first... and I cannot argue against that. For strategic growth, this thing will be trained, not only for tactical advantages of effective pushes, but also to get timing for short pushes.
Background and situation first, then a way to handle this ball next with a BH topspin response.
I have a dude I am working with to improve his TT, especially learning how to spin after decades of flat hit going slap happy. He has a real difficult time with this ball... and I see so many club players struggle with this too... SO... I wuld think this would be a very valid and applicable topic to address.
Like many players, when I give him a long underspin that lands middle depth on the table and would go a foot or so before dropping below table level, he has the easier time making an opening loop in terms of spin and quality. I believe this would be true for anyone. I frequently tell my doubles partners that a push landing middle depth on table is the EASIEST ball for any attacker to recognize, see, and have lots of time to prepare and successfully attack strongly.
When I take the ball off the bounce and give him a fast, deep underspin to his BH... dude feels rushed... he leans back and as he tries to strike the ball, is falling back... ends up impacting the ball 4 ft off table and shot lands maybe 10 percent of the time.
When I ask what happened, he says he needed more time and the ball already so quickly got all into his space faster than he was ready to finish his stroke.
What Der_Echte says is happeneing here is not just one, but several things happening:
- Player did NOT recognize a fast push is about to be made (Timing Perception Issue)
- Player did NOT recognize ball is coming deep to BH corner (Depth Perception issue)
- Player is trying to use the USUAL BH topspin vs underspin, which is a long stroke that takes time (Timing to Impact Issue)
- Player MIGHT be crowding the table a bit (Potential Position Issue)
- Player MIGHT be coming out of crouch early (Potential Balance/Stance Issue)
Although the last 2 issues MIGHT also be happening, let us pretend the player was crouched ready and positioned a 30-40 cm off the table... and let's address how to deal with the first three issues, since the way to fix the last 2 is real simple.
Issue #1 - Player simply does NOT see a fast ball coming (and is now rushed and in PANIC mode)
Remendy #1 - Player should do a TINY quick knee bend right at MOMENT of impact... this will allow player to see the impact... and have a very quick responce to it intuitively. There is a huge advantage to your first step when you do this... it is almost like you are gaining a lot of time. Another aspect is recognition that player is impacting ball very early off the bounce with a stroke - this is soften a big clue you are gunna get a fast deep underspin ball. Player should be ready to see what speed of ball is about to come into his zone.
Issue #2 - Player did NOT recognize ball is coming DEEP to the BH.
Remedy #2 - Player should know how early and with what stroke is gunna produce which speed of ball... that will tell player the depth on table where ball will bounce. This is a skill acquired over time, but very important. If #1 and #2 are not helping the player out, then the player can adapt with remedy #3
Issue #3 - Player is trying to use the regular BH topspsin vs underspin stroke that takes some time to do... and is LATE.
Note on #3 - Player does not recognize the timing of ball arrival and has committed to the regular long swing that takes time. Normally, there is PLENTY of time for this swing, and it would be the right stroke choice for a slow incoming underspin. In this situation, player should do four key things.
Remedy #3 - See the four things below and the expalainations: First the general then the specific.
- DO NOT start stroke too early. (and do not select the long stroke - this is where everyone gets in truble) Real Important. You still have time. There is a certain dance cadence to use to handle such a ball... and it is TOTALLY OPPOSITE to the kind of timing and visualization used to handle a slower long underspin ball. This is why it is real difficult for amateurs to handle this shot.
- DO a MODIFIED and SIMPLIFIED Timing of the ball. So an opponent does a real fast underspin right at your BH... don't panic, just use your space and time your quick crouch DOWN and UP (it should feel down and up, even if you are using some forward swing motion) (The down and up are your legs/knees/waist) (and it is not as much of a dip as you would think)
- Use a SHORTER stroke leveraged with your legs and waist. This would be a "Short Hip" in Korean TT speak. You are making a quick and short impulse with a tiny explosion of the legs/hip using them to create energy, amplify it, leverage it, and use your lower arm/hand to further amplify and transfer that energy.
- MANAGE the space in front of you - you can handle that fast ball if you are a manager of close space
How to NOT swing too early under time pressure? Recognition, then lots of PRACTICE. Doing that tiny knee bend will give you the best chance to see a fast ball incoming. Getting someone to feed you the fast under spin multiball fashion is good start, then later single ball random slow and fast mixed up.
What is this timing? Think and act real simple. as ball is coming down before bounce, you crouch down. DO NOT try to crouch down as far as you normally do for a slower long underspin. The crouch could be 5 cm... believe it or not, you can still make a lot of energy with that crouch and the right timing. When ball is now hit your end of table, explode up and unleash that shorter compact stroke with a feeling of down and up leveraged with the hip. You can eiher go real soft on grip at impact to bring back a slower, safer ball, or go full firm at impact to make a powerful return, which can also be very high landing percentage. So, simply stated, go down a little as ball is coming at you (only a little, there is little time here) and go up (and do your compact stroke) once ball lands.
- Note on stroke... you are NOT dipping the bat way down, like you would to make a slow heavy underspin, you are keeping it by your side and dipping the bat only as much as you are dipping waist, which isn't much. You need to be able to bring that bat into play in a short time frame... bat positioned slightly to the side and a tiny down allows you to get it into action quickly.
How to manage space? Visualize your BH stroke as a rolling drum kind of thing in front of you. For this, you require 30 cm or so of space in front. So, if a ball comes at you, as long as you have that 30 cm of space behind the table and you do not rush, but instead, use a more compact quick stroke, you have enough room to make the stroke WITHOUT feeling like you are being pushed backwards to make a play. This visualiztion is BIG TIME. If you are still crouched, see a fast ball incoming, and do not panic, you can instantly adapt by using the compact stroke with the down and up timing watching hte ball fall and impact as your timing cues.
I would post a vid demonstrating this, but the players around me are TERRIBLE at pushing underspin with precision of spin and placement... and the dude I help out has never really pushed much in his life, or done it well. That will come with time. He has decided to learn topspin first... and I cannot argue against that. For strategic growth, this thing will be trained, not only for tactical advantages of effective pushes, but also to get timing for short pushes.