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  1. langel is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal

    Better in what way? Things are not so simple that you can make a statement like that without some additional stipulation. Seamless balls were more durable and at the beginning they were round and bounce high (even higher than celluloid). But if the standard is similarity to the celluloid balls prior to 40+, then Nittaku Premium and DHS D40, which have seams, are much better. And cellulose acetate balls with seams were bad by any standard. They were not round, fragile, and bounce much lower than celluloid.

    Also, just as all of the seamless balls are made by Minkow, a lot of ABS balls with seams are rebranded balls from DHS or Double Fish at their separate factories in China. However, Nittaku Premium balls are actually made in Japan. It is actually surprising how few factories there actually are for TT balls.

    Better in MY way.
    I already said that different people have different senses and preferences.
    And its very true for every different statement.

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  2. Baal is offline
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    #22
    Ok. What way is that? What exactly is it about them that you prefer?

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    #23
    Let me add that I can certainly play with seamless (at least the Xushaofa ones at the beginning). But I think they feel a bit like playing TT with a beach ball. They seem slow in the air, they don't seem to spin as well and they are actually slightly larger. They are very easy to see and last forever. Vastly superior to the cellulose acetate crap at the beginning of 40+ era. A Nittaku Premium is as close to a celluloid 40 mm ball as you can get.

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    Last edited by Baal; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:39 PM.

  4. langel is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    Let me add that I can certainly play with seamless (at least the Xushaofa ones at the beginning). But I think they feel a bit like playing TT with a beach ball. They seem slow in the air, they don't seem to spin as well and they are actually slightly larger. They are very easy to see and last forever. Vastly superior to the cellulose acetate crap at the beginning of 40+ era. A Nittaku Premium is as close to a celluloid 40 mm ball as you can get.

    Exactly opposite - bit faster, more than a bit better spin, better roundness and much more consistent bounce and flight trajectory without zig-zaging, firm and pleasant sound, more durable. Maybe I miss something, I haven't use seamless for 2 years, after, as I said, they dropped in quality.


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    #25
    To me seamless balls have better rotation and higher bounce than new abs plastic balls however their quality control is crap (if you get 2 round ones from a seamless xiom box of 6 you are lucky) and they break easy. ABS plastic balls are harder and faster.

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    Well, different people, different senses
    I feel very well the differences between the balls of of different brands and between a new ball and an old ball.
    And believe me - when you play for fun there is nothing better than to play with your favourite ball on your favourite table, but on tournaments it doesn't help, because you don't have that chance- you always play on different tables with different balls.

    I should take you up that and test you...

    I have a friend who only drinks coke, no Pepsi or other colas, he claimed the other colas tasted crap. So I went and bought 4 different kinds and put them in 8 glasses two each kind and let him guess. Needless to say he couldn’t pick out a single coke...

    Cheers
    L-zr

  7. Baal is offline
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    #27
    Unless they've changed a lot, there's no way seamless balls are faster than Nittaku Premium ot DHS D40.. However, my opinion is based on Xushaofa balls from 2014-17.

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    #28
    One of the clubs I played for used some Xushaofa balls, I found them to be okay, but sometimes felt that spin levels weren’t as high as I thought they should be!! Could just be me though !!!

  9. zeio is offline
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    #29
    Last edited by zeio; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:44 PM.
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  10. tt_beginner is online now
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    #30
    anyway I finally got a chance to use the DHS DJ40+

    it's pretty good imo , it doesn't get 'dirty' easily compared to the Nitakku Premium

    at least in my experience

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    #31
    In theory the seamless balls should be better that the seamed ones because the rotational inertia should be the same no matter what axis you spin the ball on.
    I doubt seamless balls were ever out of round. The seamless balls are formed in a mold so as long as the mold is perfect for perfectly round balls the balls will be perfect. However, if the mold is a hollow sphere then how does plastic get inside. The mold has two halves and the plastic is put in one half then the mold is closed. Now the trick is to heat the plastic until it melts and distributes itself evenly on the inside of the mold. This is accomplished by a technique called roto molding where the mold(s) are placed in at 3D gimbal and rotated around the different axis and when the inside is coated evenly the mold is cooled. This takes some experimentation to get it just right. Chances are the out of round balls were not out of round but where not covered evenly on the inside.

    Balls with a larger diameter ( radius ) will spin less with the same tangential impact.
    Balls that are heavier will have a higher inertia which means they will require more torque to angular accelerate to the same speed. However, I doubt this makes much difference as the paddle has so much more mass than the ball.

  12. Der_Echte is offline
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    #32
    The latest gen DHS balls, the DJ40+ seem to be a prior gen tech with better QC. I got a batch of Nexy 2* practice balls bi-color that had great bounce and longevity with great hard solid feel that perform better than many brands' 3*** match balls, but of course the QC is not match ball QC.

    The DJ40+ fels very similar, but with much better QC than before.

    In prior gens, despite DHS making the great non-Nittaku balls, the DHS branded balls had HORRIBLE QC, I mean of 12 balls 11 were 2 star or less and maybe one was 3 star.

    With the DJ40+ you are getting what you expect out of a true match ball... and as you note, the ball doesn't get all shiny after a few matches like Nittaku does.

    BB is right in that a smallr diamater ball is initially easier to spin... and the Nittaku balls are on the SMALL end of the spec... and Nittaku figured out earlier how to make a good feeling ball.

    A generation earlier, DHS figured out how to produce a great ball... problem was, it had a lot of egs getting made and they had to sell them somewhere. The ones that were true round were great balls very much like the DJ40+ balls - same great solid feel.

    I can get very similar spin out of either ball. I could paly with a NEWER nittaku ball, but one that ball gets 5 to 10 hours of play, it starts to get shiny and slippier.

    The DHS D40+ true round balls with goos QC and hte DJ 40+ balls really hold up over time.

    Back in 2010 era, in Korea, we used the celluloid ball, I would buy a 6 pack and it MIGHT last a week playing every day. MIGHT. If I had a 6 pack of DJ40+ and played the same amount, that would last me a month. 4 each 6 packs was $40 USD... I do not think a single 6 pack (I think they sell in a 12 pack for around $20 USD or less for 12) is half that price or less.

    So, we now have a quality ball that if you replace balls as they break or become less than optimal, you are spending 1/2 the price on balls.

    Moar funds for Chicken and Beerz is always a good consequence.
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  13. mihalichtheone is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...66984c4dykl2S8

    Huieson New Material 3 Star Table Tennis Balls sets 30/50/100 Pcs Orange White English Marked Ping Pong Balls ABS Training Balls

    Product Specification:

    Item Name: Huieson 3 Stars English Marked Table Tennis Balls

    Material: 100% New ABS Plastic

    Quality: Standard 3 Star Level

    Color: Orange/White

    Size: 40+mm Diameter, 2.7-2.8g/piece Approximately

    Grade: 3 Star Trainning table tennis ball

    Fit for: Professional Table Tennis Trainning, Competiton for School Student and Table Tennis Club.

    Packing: Poly Bag packing, 30 50 100 Pcs / Bag and for the Non-pro, club player or to squeeze thme through the robo I buy these in packet of 100 they have a nice rough surface and can take a beating. They would not pass a MaLong roundness twist test but they are relatively wobble-free

    Oh no these balls are not good at all, even for multiball. Suitable only for kids/adults to learn the very basics and get the feeling of the ball, otherwise I would suggest DHS 1 star balls - they are a little lighter than 3 star, have slightly different bounce, but the feeling is similar to the one of 3 star. 30% of 1 star DHS balls are also pretty round.

    Since we live in the smaller poorer city in Russia we use Andro 2 star balls (https://www.andro.de/products/equipm...andro-poly-2s/). There are around 70% round balls and they're also quite similar to DHS 3 star balls, so we use them for both multiball and practicing on the table.


  14. langel is offline
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    The latest gen DHS balls, the DJ40+ seem to be a prior gen tech with better QC. I got a batch of Nexy 2* practice balls bi-color that had great bounce and longevity with great hard solid feel that perform better than many brands' 3*** match balls, but of course the QC is not match ball QC.

    The DJ40+ fels very similar, but with much better QC than before.

    In prior gens, despite DHS making the great non-Nittaku balls, the DHS branded balls had HORRIBLE QC, I mean of 12 balls 11 were 2 star or less and maybe one was 3 star.

    With the DJ40+ you are getting what you expect out of a true match ball... and as you note, the ball doesn't get all shiny after a few matches like Nittaku does.

    BB is right in that a smallr diamater ball is initially easier to spin... and the Nittaku balls are on the SMALL end of the spec... and Nittaku figured out earlier how to make a good feeling ball.

    A generation earlier, DHS figured out how to produce a great ball... problem was, it had a lot of egs getting made and they had to sell them somewhere. The ones that were true round were great balls very much like the DJ40+ balls - same great solid feel.

    I can get very similar spin out of either ball. I could paly with a NEWER nittaku ball, but one that ball gets 5 to 10 hours of play, it starts to get shiny and slippier.

    The DHS D40+ true round balls with goos QC and hte DJ 40+ balls really hold up over time.

    Back in 2010 era, in Korea, we used the celluloid ball, I would buy a 6 pack and it MIGHT last a week playing every day. MIGHT. If I had a 6 pack of DJ40+ and played the same amount, that would last me a month. 4 each 6 packs was $40 USD... I do not think a single 6 pack (I think they sell in a 12 pack for around $20 USD or less for 12) is half that price or less.

    So, we now have a quality ball that if you replace balls as they break or become less than optimal, you are spending 1/2 the price on balls.

    Moar funds for Chicken and Beerz is always a good consequence.

    All that is because the DJ40+ is very close to the QC of the Gewo Select Pro 40+.
    Close, but still behind.
    Close, because the surface keeps the grip for long, like the Gewo.
    Behind, because it still doesn't maintain the Gewo consistency in long term performance, like Gewo.
    And plus that, but just maybe, the Gewo ball reportedly may have some ingredient, that the DHS is missing.


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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    In theory the seamless balls should be better that the seamed ones because the rotational inertia should be the same no matter what axis you spin the ball on.
    I doubt seamless balls were ever out of round. The seamless balls are formed in a mold so as long as the mold is perfect for perfectly round balls the balls will be perfect. However, if the mold is a hollow sphere then how does plastic get inside. The mold has two halves and the plastic is put in one half then the mold is closed. Now the trick is to heat the plastic until it melts and distributes itself evenly on the inside of the mold. This is accomplished by a technique called roto molding where the mold(s) are placed in at 3D gimbal and rotated around the different axis and when the inside is coated evenly the mold is cooled. This takes some experimentation to get it just right. Chances are the out of round balls were not out of round but where not covered evenly on the inside.

    Balls with a larger diameter ( radius ) will spin less with the same tangential impact.
    Balls that are heavier will have a higher inertia which means they will require more torque to angular accelerate to the same speed. However, I doubt this makes much difference as the paddle has so much more mass than the ball.

    Theory is theory, practice is practice.

    In practice none of all my seamless balls have been zig-zaging in the air, especially with a mixed spin, with which it can be visualized the best.
    ALL seamed balls do that with 1 out of 3.
    BUT - as I said, I quit using seamless 2 years ago because of the great drop of quality, due to patent wars.
    So the ongoing discussion is a bit pointless.

    Nevertheless I still keep a seamless Xiom ball from the old good quality batches and I still use it to evaluate other balls when I have some hesitation regarding their performance. Some kind of reference. Because when you are somewhat blinded by a "cult" to something /Gewo, DHS, it doesn't matter/ you have to ground from time to time.


  16. Baal is offline
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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    In theory the seamless balls should be better that the seamed ones because the rotational inertia should be the same no matter what axis you spin the ball on.
    I doubt seamless balls were ever out of round. The seamless balls are formed in a mold so as long as the mold is perfect for perfectly round balls the balls will be perfect. However, if the mold is a hollow sphere then how does plastic get inside. The mold has two halves and the plastic is put in one half then the mold is closed. Now the trick is to heat the plastic until it melts and distributes itself evenly on the inside of the mold. This is accomplished by a technique called roto molding where the mold(s) are placed in at 3D gimbal and rotated around the different axis and when the inside is coated evenly the mold is cooled. This takes some experimentation to get it just right. Chances are the out of round balls were not out of round but where not covered evenly on the inside.

    Balls with a larger diameter ( radius ) will spin less with the same tangential impact.
    Balls that are heavier will have a higher inertia which means they will require more torque to angular accelerate to the same speed. However, I doubt this makes much difference as the paddle has so much more mass than the ball.

    I think when we say out of round we could also be describing non homogeneous weight distribution. I suspect either thing might produce some of tbe same wobbly weirdness. The only issue regarding the XSF balls that I've used a few years ago is how they behave in the air due to size. Again, to me they felt like playing with beach balls. They were a little bigger in diameter than otherv40+ balls but I always found them round (no wobbliness). That was never a problem when i used them.. There was a period for a year or so where Niitaku Premium was almost impossible to buy and DHS D40 hadn't come out yet where seamless was the only playable 40+ ball you could readily buy.

    The thing I dislike about all 40+ balls is ITTF used it as an opportunity to sneak in another increase in ball size. It was entirely unnecessary. Water under the bridge now.

    Actually, I was thinking that when I start playing again after my endless pandemic time off TT, some XSF balls might be what I need to slowly remember how to play. I dread seeing how bad I will be.

    Last edited by Baal; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:40 PM.

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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal

    I think when we say out of round we could also be describing non homogeneous weight distribution. I suspect either thing might produce some of tbe same wobbly weirdness.


    Yes, but I see "out of round" and uneven distribution of plastic on the ball as two different issues. It is the uneven distribution of plastic when rotating the ball that is the main issue and it is hard to get right.

    What I don't like about the new plastic balls is that they are harder. I can squeeze an old celluloid ball and make it dimple. I can't do that with the new plastic balls. There is a specification for the coefficient of restitution for TT balls. The ball must bounce up about 24 cm+/- 0.5cm from 30cm. The problem with this spec it that is only considers ONE impact speed. The ball is not moving very fast when dropped from only 30 cm. The coefficient of restitution is not constant. It varies with the impact speed. This means that different balls can bounce differently at the higher speeds and still be within specification but still drive TT players crazy with the differences.

    Actually, I was thinking that when I start playing again after my endless pandemic time off TT, some XSF balls might be what I need to slowly remember how to play. I dread seeing how bad I will be.



    We stopped playing for 3 months from April to June of last year. After we started again. Then I bought two boxes of balls, one orange and one white. You only touch the balls that are white or orange but not both. I have bags that I can drop the balls in with a disinfectant cloth and shake them up. However, when we all get our second shot we are going back to normal.

    BTW, I am upset with myself that I didn't pay to be tested to see if I am naturally immune. If so I wouldn't have to worry about shots. Now Pfizer is saying a third shot may be required. This is BS. Will it ever end?

  18. harty is offline
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    The latest gen DHS balls, the DJ40+ seem to be a prior gen tech with better QC. I got a batch of Nexy 2* practice balls bi-color that had great bounce and longevity with great hard solid feel that perform better than many brands' 3*** match balls, but of course the QC is not match ball QC.

    The DJ40+ fels very similar, but with much better QC than before.

    In prior gens, despite DHS making the great non-Nittaku balls, the DHS branded balls had HORRIBLE QC, I mean of 12 balls 11 were 2 star or less and maybe one was 3 star.

    With the DJ40+ you are getting what you expect out of a true match ball... and as you note, the ball doesn't get all shiny after a few matches like Nittaku does.

    BB is right in that a smallr diamater ball is initially easier to spin... and the Nittaku balls are on the SMALL end of the spec... and Nittaku figured out earlier how to make a good feeling ball.

    A generation earlier, DHS figured out how to produce a great ball... problem was, it had a lot of egs getting made and they had to sell them somewhere. The ones that were true round were great balls very much like the DJ40+ balls - same great solid feel.

    I can get very similar spin out of either ball. I could paly with a NEWER nittaku ball, but one that ball gets 5 to 10 hours of play, it starts to get shiny and slippier.

    The DHS D40+ true round balls with goos QC and hte DJ 40+ balls really hold up over time.

    Back in 2010 era, in Korea, we used the celluloid ball, I would buy a 6 pack and it MIGHT last a week playing every day. MIGHT. If I had a 6 pack of DJ40+ and played the same amount, that would last me a month. 4 each 6 packs was $40 USD... I do not think a single 6 pack (I think they sell in a 12 pack for around $20 USD or less for 12) is half that price or less.

    So, we now have a quality ball that if you replace balls as they break or become less than optimal, you are spending 1/2 the price on balls.

    Moar funds for Chicken and Beerz is always a good consequence.


    dhs-729.eu

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    #39
    Here are the tolerance criteria for DHS DJ and DHS DJW balls
    Tolerances in the picture
    dhs-729.eu

  20. langel is offline
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    #40
    What do these percentages mean?
    What is it in numbers?


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