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  1. Music&Ping is offline
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    #41
    Really, it's getting out of control in the ITTF. They wanted to preserve players health by banning VOC glues, fair enough. Instead of banning more things, they should implement more norms: all companies/builders should give the exact products composition, as it's done for example in France for any food's list of ingredients. Then a product's specimen is controlled, builders would have to give for free one or two specimen to the ITTF and then ITTF would give them the stamps of approval. Obligation to indicate the exact composition of a given product on its label, and done. Freedom under transparency's obligations for EVERYONE.

    No additional fees for blades as it does not require as stupid labs processes for verifications as balls, glues or rubbers do.

    That would be good in order to control the boosters market for example. It's exactly like medical marijuana: instead of banning something and make it out of control, legalize it, but with strict norms to make it the less harmful possible.

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  2. lodro is offline
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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    Really, it's getting out of control in the ITTF. They wanted to preserve players health by banning VOC glues, fair enough. Instead of banning more things, they should implement more norms: all companies/builders should give the exact products composition, as it's done for example in France for any food's list of ingredients. Then a product's specimen is controlled, builders would have to give for free one or two specimen to the ITTF and then ITTF would give them the stamps of approval. Obligation to indicate the exact composition of a given product on its label, and done. Freedom under transparency's obligations for EVERYONE.

    No additional fees for blades as it does not require as stupid labs processes for verifications as balls, glues or rubbers do.

    That would be good in order to control the boosters market for example. It's exactly like medical marijuana: instead of banning something and make it out of control, legalize it, but with strict norms to make it the less harmful possible.

    Another little twist from a twisted mind now : " I changed my mind - let us ban ALL home made blades"

    Reasoning: Regardless of the size, a home is a home ergo: Regardless of the size, a factory is a factory.

    oh, and the ITTF can get: "#$^&" 😎

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  3. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    ....They wanted to preserve players health by banning VOC glues, fair enough..
    Not to change the subject but....ITTF did not ban VOCs for the health of anyone. They did try to use that as the excuse. But if that was why, why then, did they also ban substances that are not harmful to anyone (certain kinds of boosting materials) as well.

    They tried to ban Speed Glue in the 1990s and the players flipped out. So they banned certain kinds of pips first. Then changed the ball size. Then the excuses about the reasons not to ban Speed Glue were not as strong, so, in 2008 they banned it and it stuck.

    This video by Greg Letts is comedy. But it has a lot more fact that fiction in it.

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  4. Der_Echte is offline
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping

    Actually, Frank Zappa from the pic made a lot of sense when he talked about govt control... and he frequently talked about that. He also talked a lot about corporate control and tyrany, much of it directed against him. Thankfully, he still made music. I never agreed with some of his views on some matters, but his overall message of be cautious granting too much authority to govt and company was a true one.

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  5. Der_Echte is offline
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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Actually, I think he means how nobody can get the actual equipment that the CNT use (which was part of my joke about CNT socks and underwear). And, yes, people think they are buying National H3 or ML's personal H3 or ML's personal W968 blade. But I am not so sure they are getting what they think they are, and look at the prices some sellers try to charge for things like these.
    ...

    However, this won't stop pros from using a blade from one company with a handle from another. And if it does not do that, then it is totally pointless and will only serve to punish club and tournament players WHO WANT TO play by the rules.
    ...

    No, I am not going to get rid of my 35 blades and buy a new blade that has been approved by WTF (Oh, it is not "what the f-ck": ITTF/WTT). hahahaha.
    ...

    Balls, to me it makes sense. I think in Baseball, Football, Basketball, Tennis, they are using balls that meet certain qualifications.
    ...

    Rubbers: TT is unique in that, there was a lot of interesting stuff going on with what certain people did to their rubbers and the extent to which that impacts speed, spin and deception. I don't know that they can really stop this because some of it is still going on even if, not to the same extent. But it makes sense that, given the history, they can try to regulate rubber usage.
    ...

    But a blade....there is not much you can do with WOOD; SO, if the blade adheres to the rule about the percentage of material that can be in the blade face that is not wood, I am not sure there should be more to it than that.
    ...

    Corked bats in baseball are against the rules. But the bat does not have to be MLB approved. There is no intelligent reason that a blade would need approval aside from passing the inspection of an umpire, to meet requirements and be good for play.
    ...

    I mean, the rules do not even specify size of blade face. And I am pretty sure a player like Xu Xin uses a blade with a larger blade face than the standard version of the blade he "supposedly" uses. The idea that they would try to do this is really, actually, laughable. But it is okay. Nobody will pay attention to it. Or, at least I won't.
    ...

    Nate: I will continue using the Nate Special Vortex Spin Machine even after I have been banned by ITTF, WTT, USATT and WTF! hahahahahaha. Hipnotic: we are going to have to work out you making a blade for me soon.
    ...

    This really is too funny.
    ...
    This is gunna turn into something like when AOC (a Latino) and friends said some bad things about the most prominent USA Latino food supplier and it all backfired when both Latinos and non-Latinos started to buy MORE from that outfit.

    Yup, the movement is on to buy from custom blade makers.

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  6. Music&Ping is offline
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Not to change the subject but....ITTF did not ban VOCs for the health of anyone. They did try to use that as the excuse. But if that was why, why then, did they also ban substances that are not harmful to anyone (certain kinds of boosting materials) as well.

    They tried to ban Speed Glue in the 1990s and the players flipped out. So they banned certain kinds of pips first. Then changed the ball size. Then the excuses about the reasons not to ban Speed Glue were not as strong, so, in 2008 they banned it and it stuck.

    This video by Greg Letts is comedy. But it has a lot more fact that fiction in it.


    That is the major difference between the euro vs the US way of life: since most of the time you don't know what's in the things you eat or use in everyday life, you think it's ... most of the time... well ok. Europeans, specially the french, don't think it's ok to trust that much companies, but it's not considered as a good thing in a capitalist world. We don't trust neither our governments then, since they completely sold themselves, their people so, to the finance.

    Der is totally right: it's impossible to fully trust ANY administration, government or company, because (and it was Frank Zappa's major concern) they never do what they do for the good of their people. That's why people wants transparency, that's why people wants norms to be implemented: because they want, as consumers, as human beings, to be taken seriously.

    VOC speed glues were a real threat to youngsters health, I mean... we've seen countless of teenagers literaly that were completely high on speed glue fumes! because it was decided to confine SG players in a same tiny room, most of the time a locker room without any venting ! Walking a single step into those glueing rooms was an act of bravery... or stupidity. This is why I stopped glueing after the mid 90's, it was becoming a total nonsense.

    I stand my words: banning VOC glues was a "necessary evil", of course the rest is idiocy: ball, 11 points game, hidden serves (without any REAL possibilities to enforce hidden serve rules for the referees)

    EDIT: also, let's talk about all those stupid idiots who were reactivating their speed glue after each single match with trichloroethylene, or even acetone....

    Last edited by Music&Ping; 04-18-2021 at 03:28 AM.

  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping



    I stand my words: banning VOC glues was a "necessary evil", of course the rest is idiocy: ball, 11 points game, hidden serves (without any REAL possibilities to enforce hidden serve rules for the referees)

    I have nothing against not using VOCs in TT. But tell me why they also banned non-VOC boosters and any substance that could change the playing characteristics of a rubber when they banned VOC glues. If the actual intention was to get the bad chemicals out and make people safer, why did the ban extend to applying anything to the rubber that would change the playing characteristics, AND, at the same time, allow the pro players to get rubbers from the factory, boosted to their own specifications?

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  8. Der_Echte is offline
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    #48
    I appreciate Music and P supporting the idea of closely watching govt and powerful companies, but here I gotta say Carl is barking up the right tree when asking why ITTF wanted to ban the first gen boosters, which were proven safe to use on baby skin, often called baby oil. ITTF banning something on the grounds of health concerns, despite decades long safe use on humans in 100x the concentration that would be in contact doing the boosting.

    Barking up another tree, I would argue that the decades long (Until a lot of Europe finally got rid of this in many public places by 2010) is that being in a CIGARETTE SMOKE FILLED ROOM for hours is WAY more harmful than treating rubbers with bike glue.

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  9. latej is offline
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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Should this happen, it would be a fine example of government making a perfectly legal activity that contributes to commerce and society and turn it into an illegal thing with the single pounding of a hammer in session.

    ITTF is not government, but in the area of table tennis, they are actually in the role of government (they "govern" the sport) and wield the power of government.

    Since USA TT Assn (USATT) rubber stamps all ITTF stuff and does not exist to serve the common member (they exist to serve themselves and the elite athletes) it would be better for USA to make a seperate TT assn just for the amateur players that is not influenced by ITTF and exists to serve the interests of the membership.

    Doing such a thing at the national level if it is already not done (Sweden for a few years REFUSED to implement frictionless LP removal from authorized list) would ensure the freedom and facility of commerce.
    Any idea about how to make sure that the board of that assn won't detach itself into floating bubble AGAIN?

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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Any idea about how to make sure that the board of that assn won't detach itself into floating bubble AGAIN?

    unless all national associations unite together and form a new organization, i do not think the clamors will be heard.

    ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor at your service!

  11. latej is offline
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    #51
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    unless all national associations unite together and form a new organization, i do not think the clamors will be heard.
    You got it the other way round. It's not about them finally hearing us. It's about us considering whether we gonna hear them :-)

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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    You got it the other way round. It's not about them finally hearing us. It's about us considering whether we gonna hear them :-)

    yeah, It could be the other way around.

    ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor at your service!

  13. Der_Echte is offline
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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Any idea about how to make sure that the board of that assn won't detach itself into floating bubble AGAIN?

    If you are talking about the USATT, the US Olympic Committee gets to place half or so of the board with people of their choice... then some others get nominated and some are open positions voted in by membership... USATT members have seen so many clowns run for board positions almot no one votes anymoar... which makes it easy for this to get worse.

    Basically, whoever is running the bard, and whoever they hore are ALWAYS placing themselves and hte elite players first and do not serve the membership. This is very clear.

    The way the board is selected, and who they select makes it next to zero chance they act independently and work for the members.

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte

    If you are talking about the USATT, the US Olympic Committee gets to place half or so of the board with people of their choice... then some others get nominated and some are open positions voted in by membership... USATT members have seen so many clowns run for board positions almot no one votes anymoar... which makes it easy for this to get worse.

    Basically, whoever is running the bard, and whoever they hore are ALWAYS placing themselves and hte elite players first and do not serve the membership. This is very clear.

    The way the board is selected, and who they select makes it next to zero chance they act independently and work for the members.

    Last time I checked, the membership only got to vote on 2 board members.


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    #55
    I was very generous of saying SOME when I said that. 2 is the correct number and yeah, let's call it a little stretch to call 2 "some".
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  16. latej is offline
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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    If you are talking about the USATT, the US Olympic Committee gets to place half or so of the board with people of their choice... then some others get nominated and some are open positions voted in by membership... USATT members have seen so many clowns run for board positions almot no one votes anymoar... which makes it easy for this to get worse.

    Basically, whoever is running the bard, and whoever they hore are ALWAYS placing themselves and hte elite players first and do not serve the membership. This is very clear.

    The way the board is selected, and who they select makes it next to zero chance they act independently and work for the members.
    You proposed that
    it would be better for USA to make a seperate TT assn just for the amateur players that is not influenced by ITTF and exists to serve the interests of the membership.
    Cool idea. My question was about that.
    Any idea about how to make sure that the board of that assn won't detach itself into floating bubble AGAIN?
    Last edited by latej; 04-18-2021 at 07:41 PM.

  17. Baal is offline
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    #57
    Wait for this too: ITTF will want to ban old blades made prior to their requirement to approve blades. So even if new Viscarias are approved, my old black tag one won't be. Why do I predict this? Well, it's one of the worst things I could imagine them doing. Therefore they will do it.
    QED

    I hold the ITTF in complete contempt.

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  18. Der_Echte is offline
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    #58
    Latej,

    My analysis is that under its current construction, it is next to impossible.

    The only realistic solution would be a seperat association for amateur USA players led by amateur players soley for amateur players with amateur players on board and in the functional positions.
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