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  1. Gozo is offline
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    #1

    Slow down, you are not a pro...

    Hi TT community,

    My country is now under lockdown as the COVID numbers is getting into the worrisome level. As such, TT clubs nationwide are closed for business. Without my regular mates for playing TT, I have to go back to playing solo against my rebounding boards.

    I took out some of my old blades and reviewing them again. As a TT community, especially hobbyist or amateur players, we have been brainwashed by TT equipment producers into buying and using faster & more powerful equipment. This phenomenon, somehow has made me forget playing at a slower tempo and just plain enjoying the spin.

    Is this just me, or am I getting old?

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    Last edited by Gozo; 05-19-2021 at 07:34 AM. Reason: grammar

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    #2
    I know that's what the new ball has done to the game. I thoroughly enjoy watching footage from the 70's and 80's when spin actually counted...

    Cheers
    L-zr

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    #3
    I have always advocated for all- Wood blades especially for intermediate or hobbyists.
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    #4
    My coach keeps telling me to slow down, don’t try and necessarily finish a point too quickly!! Get the ball in play with a ‘higher quality shot’, this maybe slower, but with good spin and placement, then when you have managed to get a looser ball from your opponent, out manoeuvred them, then go for a finishing shot!! Especially for my level of play!!
    Treat a match like a Chess game!!

    Time is precious for TT players, but really fast equipment, I would say is more for elite advanced / pro players because if you can take away a fraction of a second from your opponent then this can be a real advantage!! But you need the requisite skill levels to use / get the best out of fast equipment.

    The difference in ‘time available’ when compared to ball speeds are really vey small but in ‘real’ terms fairly large!!

    To put things in perspective
    If my math is correct!!! Please correct me if I’ve miscalculated, and I’m sure someone will !!!
    Approx figures not exact!!!

    2 Players standing about 6.4m apart, which is about 1.8m (6ft) behind each end of the table. Nice looping distance !!!

    ball speed of 96km/h (60mph) takes about 0.238 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 112km/h (70mph) takes about 0.204 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 128km/h (80mph) takes about 0.178 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 144km/h (90mph) takes about 0.159 seconds to travel the 6.4m

    thats a difference of about 0.08 of a second between a 96km/h ball and a 144km/h ball, (that’s a 48 km/h difference in ball speed)

    ball speed of 48km/h (30 mph) takes about 0.477 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 64km/h (40 mph) takes about 0.357 seconds to travel the 6.4m. a difference of 0.12 seconds for a difference of 16km/s in ball speed.

    So you can see that there is a larger more noticeable difference of ‘time available’ when ball speeds are slower and increase, than when they are faster and increase.

    I think that maybe the average ‘conscious’ reaction time is around 0.25 seconds give or take,( seeing, processing and acting) depending on the individual, could be as low as 0.15 seconds, so if the ball magically ‘appeared’ 6.4m away and travelled towards you at 112km/h you would do very well to get your bat to the ball and play a decent stroke!!
    Of course, how you read your opponent etc can reduce reaction times.

    Dima hit 113 km/h in the TTD ‘who can hit the ball fastest’ vid!!! but for general play the ball speeds are much slower, this is why manufacturers are focused on speed, as were players during the speed glue era.
    The parameters that we usually play within are in the slower regions of ball speeds, so the reduction in ‘time available’ is more noticeable when ball speed is increased from 48km/h to 64km/h than when increased from 96km/h to 112km/h.



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  5. Gozo is offline
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    My coach keeps telling me to slow down, don’t try and necessarily finish a point too quickly!! Get the ball in play with a ‘higher quality shot’, this maybe slower, but with good spin and placement, then when you have managed to get a looser ball from your opponent, out manoeuvred them, then go for a finishing shot!! Especially for my level of play!!
    Treat a match like a Chess game!!

    Time is precious for TT players, but really fast equipment, I would say is more for elite advanced / pro players because if you can take away a fraction of a second from your opponent then this can be a real advantage!! But you need the requisite skill levels to use / get the best out of fast equipment.

    The difference in ‘time available’ when compared to ball speeds are really vey small but in ‘real’ terms fairly large!!

    To put things in perspective
    If my math is correct!!! Please correct me if I’ve miscalculated, and I’m sure someone will !!!
    Approx figures not exact!!!

    2 Players standing about 6.4m apart, which is about 1.8m (6ft) behind each end of the table. Nice looping distance !!!

    ball speed of 96km/h (60mph) takes about 0.238 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 112km/h (70mph) takes about 0.204 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 128km/h (80mph) takes about 0.178 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 144km/h (90mph) takes about 0.159 seconds to travel the 6.4m

    thats a difference of about 0.08 of a second between a 96km/h ball and a 144km/h ball, (that’s a 48 km/h difference in ball speed)

    ball speed of 48km/h (30 mph) takes about 0.477 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 64km/h (40 mph) takes about 0.357 seconds to travel the 6.4m. a difference of 0.12 seconds for a difference of 16km/s in ball speed.

    So you can see that there is a larger more noticeable difference of ‘time available’ when ball speeds are slower and increase, than when they are faster and increase.

    I think that maybe the average ‘conscious’ reaction time is around 0.25 seconds give or take,( seeing, processing and acting) depending on the individual, could be as low as 0.15 seconds, so if the ball magically ‘appeared’ 6.4m away and travelled towards you at 112km/h you would do very well to get your bat to the ball and play a decent stroke!!
    Of course, how you read your opponent etc can reduce reaction times.

    Dima hit 113 km/h in the TTD ‘who can hit the ball fastest’ vid!!! but for general play the ball speeds are much slower, this is why manufacturers are focused on speed, as were players during the speed glue era.
    The parameters that we usually play within are in the slower regions of ball speeds, so the reduction in ‘time available’ is more noticeable when ball speed is increased from 48km/h to 64km/h than when increased from 96km/h to 112km/h.

    Thanks for the explanation. Appreciate it.


  6. lodro is offline
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    #6
    https://youtu.be/9whZOxwBZJM so much for speed, it is highly exaggerated even for pros. I remember watching the speed record video with Dima , he used the blade like throwing an axe not a TT-blade Apart from the above mentioned speeds, i agree with what everybody says
    Last edited by lodro; 05-20-2021 at 06:44 AM.

  7. ttarc is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    My coach keeps telling me to slow down, don’t try and necessarily finish a point too quickly!! Get the ball in play with a ‘higher quality shot’, this maybe slower, but with good spin and placement, then when you have managed to get a looser ball from your opponent, out manoeuvred them, then go for a finishing shot!! Especially for my level of play!!Treat a match like a Chess game!!...So you can see that there is a larger more noticeable difference of ‘time available’ when ball speeds are slower and increase, than when they are faster and increase.

    My reasoning for (probably) switching to a faster blade is somewhat different. Shorter reaction time might make a difference on a very high level but I think that in general it has more to do with wasting less energy. Playing (too) far behind the table (which I still do too often) with an (5-ply) allwood blade simply wastes too much energy and results in longer recovery after each stroke which in turn leads to less time for the next stroke...So a faster 5+2 or 7-ply blade could make sense but this comes at a price: strokes need always to be executed better and there will be less feeling/control (especially closer to the table). In the end it is an optimization problem/What's the best tradeoff for my game...


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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    My coach keeps telling me to slow down, don’t try and necessarily finish a point too quickly!! Get the ball in play with a ‘higher quality shot’, this maybe slower, but with good spin and placement, then when you have managed to get a looser ball from your opponent, out manoeuvred them, then go for a finishing shot!! Especially for my level of play!!
    Treat a match like a Chess game!!
    Yes, but that might require making 2 or 3 more shots.

    To put things in perspective
    If my math is correct!!! Please correct me if I’ve miscalculated, and I’m sure someone will !!!
    Approx figures not exact!!!

    2 Players standing about 6.4m apart, which is about 1.8m (6ft) behind each end of the table. Nice looping distance !!!

    ball speed of 96km/h (60mph) takes about 0.238 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 112km/h (70mph) takes about 0.204 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 128km/h (80mph) takes about 0.178 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    ball speed of 144km/h (90mph) takes about 0.159 seconds to travel the 6.4m
    Actually, the times are much longer because you didn't take into account air resistance slowing down the ball.
    I used a differential equation and used an ODE solver since the equation for deceleration due to air resistance is non-linear.
    A ball hit at 96kph or 26.666 m/s will require .399 seconds to travel 6.4m assuming that hitting the table doesn't slow down the ball or speed it up.

    At 144 kph it takes the ball .26 seconds to travel 6.4 m/s

    Since I/we play much closer to the table much of the time, the times are much shorter. If we subtract 2 meters from the distance between players, it takes .23 seconds for the ball to travel 4.4 meters when initially hit at 96 kph (26.666 m/s). The ball is still traveling at about 12.95 m/s after 4.4m.

    So you have more time than you think and stepping back provides more time not only because of the extra distance the ball must travel but also because it slows down due to air resistance.

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    #9
    With the amount of speed the rubbers of today have, you would not need a very fast blade at lower levels.

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  10. IB66 is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Yes, but that might require making 2 or 3 more shots.


    Actually, the times are much longer because you didn't take into account air resistance slowing down the ball.
    I used a differential equation and used an ODE solver since the equation for deceleration due to air resistance is non-linear.
    A ball hit at 96kph or 26.666 m/s will require .399 seconds to travel 6.4m assuming that hitting the table doesn't slow down the ball or speed it up.

    At 144 kph it takes the ball .26 seconds to travel 6.4 m/s

    Since I/we play much closer to the table much of the time, the times are much shorter. If we subtract 2 meters from the distance between players, it takes .23 seconds for the ball to travel 4.4 meters when initially hit at 96 kph (26.666 m/s). The ball is still traveling at about 12.95 m/s after 4.4m.

    So you have more time than you think and stepping back provides more time not only because of the extra distance the ball must travel but also because it slows down due to air resistance.

    Cheers BB,

    Great to get an expert evaluation, I was hoping you would see this thread and correct my very basic attempt!!

    What I was trying to convey is that the faster equipment is seen to be important, because the difference in speed increases at lower speed levels are sort of more dramatic than speed increases at higher speeds.

    Ha ha touchy feely speed!!!!, fast is fast, faster is faster but we sort of can’t evaluate this, it’s just dam quick!! At lower speed levels you can get a better notion of speed increases.


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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ttarc

    My reasoning for (probably) switching to a faster blade is somewhat different. Shorter reaction time might make a difference on a very high level but I think that in general it has more to do with wasting less energy. Playing (too) far behind the table (which I still do too often) with an (5-ply) allwood blade simply wastes too much energy and results in longer recovery after each stroke which in turn leads to less time for the next stroke...So a faster 5+2 or 7-ply blade could make sense but this comes at a price: strokes need always to be executed better and there will be less feeling/control (especially closer to the table). In the end it is an optimization problem/What's the best tradeoff for my game...

    Hi,

    This is sort of similar to my last post on the ‘Victas Triple Extra/ Triple Double Extra’ thread, The TE/TD rubbers, especially the TD are closer to H3 and the same effort increase is required away from the table.
    As Yogi pointed out, the rubbers available make it easier to play away from the table, so swapping from TD to Rakza Z made the longer distance play easier without having to change blade.
    blade is an Appelgren Dotec Control which is an All/All+ Rated blade.
    But as you said, there is always a trade off to be made !!!!!

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Hi,

    This is sort of similar to my last post on the ‘Victas Triple Extra/ Triple Double Extra’ thread, The TE/TD rubbers, especially the TD are closer to H3 and the same effort increase is required away from the table.
    As Yogi pointed out, the rubbers available make it easier to play away from the table, so swapping from TD to Rakza Z made the longer distance play easier without having to change blade.
    blade is an Appelgren Dotec Control which is an All/All+ Rated blade.
    But as you said, there is always a trade off to be made !!!!!
    I've played with the Rakza Z for a couple of month last year on a Yasaka Sweden Extra and switched back to H3 on a faster blade. For me H3 + YEO is more controlled in the short game and over the table than YSE + RZ and at the same time more powerful away from the table.
    There simply is (or seems to be) no rubber like the H3 that gives me the same confidence on all sort of strokes.

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  13. lodro is offline
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ttarc
    I've played with the Rakza Z for a couple of month last year on a Yasaka Sweden Extra and switched back to H3 on a faster blade. For me H3 + YEO is more controlled in the short game and over the table than YSE + RZ and at the same time more powerful away from the table.
    There simply is (or seems to be) no rubber like the H3 that gives me the same confidence on all sort of strokes.

    do you use the commercial H3s or the provincial or even the national ones ??

    do you use the commercial H3s or the provincial or even the national ones ??


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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    do you use the commercial H3s or the provincial or even the national ones ??

    39°, 40° (Neo and non-Neo) orange sponge commercial and provincial H3s. If the 37° Neo stays on my backhand depends on how well the H8-80 plays if I can get hold of one and how well this transition works overall (had only a few brief training sessions with the 37 in the last half year due to the restrictions here but maybe we can train again in two or three weeks)

  15. lodro is offline
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ttarc
    39°, 40° (Neo and non-Neo) orange sponge commercial and provincial H3s. If the 37° Neo stays on my backhand depends on how well the H8-80 plays if I can get hold of one and how well this transition works overall (had only a few brief training sessions with the 37 in the last half year due to the restrictions here but maybe we can train again in two or three weeks)

    I only use the commercial versions and while it was my initial plan to have the neos on the backhand , they are now all on my forehands.
    The neos were difficult for me to control on the backhand, somehow too bouncy.

    I use a boosted 37 / 2.15 on FH and a boosted 39 / 2.2 on my BH this is on a TSP blockman II, arguably one of the slowest blades this side of the black stump.This one i use when I have a "slow day"



  16. Gozo is offline
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    #16
    I ran an experiment today. I took out my son's Jr blade ( Palio KC1 ) and slap on H3 soft as BH and Globe 999 41 degrees hardness as FH. Basically I am testing out Emrathich's theory where he states the best set-up is flexy blade with hard sponge rubber. I played on my return board for this experiment.
    NB: Globe 999 41 degree hardness is the hardest commercial sponge I can buy from my vendor.

    This set up is easy to spin; slow and can impart good rotation. I can control the topspin much better as there is ample time to either do a slow spinny loop or a fast drive. Being a slower set-up is good for me, as I have more time to get into good position to be ready for the next shot. I suppose this is what Yin-Pai is all about, i.e., being at the correct ready position and waiting for the ball.

    What is the point of this post? My point is being slow is good as slow allows one to get in position to execute quality topspin return much more easily than a fast blade. Also to note, being in the correct position, you have more option to choose either to execute slow spinny loop or fast drive or fast loop kill. Hence you are in control.


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  17. lodro is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    I ran an experiment today. I took out my son's Jr blade ( Palio KC1 ) and slap on H3 soft as BH and Globe 999 41 degrees hardness as FH. Basically I am testing out Emrathich's theory where he states the best set-up is flexy blade with hard sponge rubber. I played on my return board for this experiment.
    NB: Globe 999 41 degree hardness is the hardest commercial sponge I can buy from my vendor.

    This set up is easy to spin; slow and can impart good rotation. I can control the topspin much better as there is ample time to either do a slow spinny loop or a fast drive. Being a slower set-up is good for me, as I have more time to get into good position to be ready for the next shot. I suppose this is what Yin-Pai is all about, i.e., being at the correct ready position and waiting for the ball.

    What is the point of this post? My point is being slow is good as slow allows one to get in position to execute quality topspin return much more easily than a fast blade. Also to note, being in the correct position, you have more option to choose either to execute slow spinny loop or fast drive or fast loop kill. Hence you are in controlthe sp

    What color is the sponge on your Globe 999t ?
    I used to run a setup using a Sanwei 7J blade and globe 999t with white sponge. I remembered this setup with so much fondness that a couple of weeks ago
    I bought another pair of these rubbers and i still got the blade too.
    The rubbers are rated 2.2mm and hardness is 44 -45.
    Next rainy day I will set this up , just for a laugh. I think i only paid US !0 for the pair.

  18. Gozo is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro
    What color is the sponge on your Globe 999t ?
    I used to run a setup using a Sanwei 7J blade and globe 999t with white sponge. I remembered this setup with so much fondness that a couple of weeks ago
    I bought another pair of these rubbers and i still got the blade too.
    The rubbers are rated 2.2mm and hardness is 44 -45.
    Next rainy day I will set this up , just for a laugh. I think i only paid US !0 for the pair.

    Mine is black sponge.

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    #19
    I don't agree with the slow down idea. I am 67. On a good day I am nimble and can step around balls to hit with my FH. I can move. Normally, I now I stand with my feet growing roots deep into the floor and depend on my reach. I must respond quickly as I am within an arms reach of the table most of the time.
    I should record some of our play. I bet that the intervals between hitting the ball is less than 0.8 seconds that was mentioned on a recent robot thread.

    No one will convince me that being slow is good. I can't do what I did 10 years ago or at least I can't do it as often. You can convince me that some times it is best to wait for the ball to come to you and your best hitting position instead of reaching forward. I think reaching forward is often a big mistake. One can't be too eager.

    Since this thread has got a little off topic about hardness of rubbers.
    Too many people place too much importance on it. I do think the spin to speed ratio is important. The better you are the the faster or spinnier the paddle can be because you will have finer control, but the spin to speed ratio should be relatively constant.

  20. lodro is offline
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    #20
    All this talk about speed gets me dizzy. 😉

    There is speed of blades
    speed of the rubbers
    speed of balls
    speed of reaction
    speed of the legs and of course arms

    Let us not forget the speed of the brain which at my age , and after brain surgery 5 years ago, is absolutely not what it used to be.
    So, even if my eyes can see my opponent giving some tricky spin to the balls, my cognitive handicap does not let me compute
    the data in the .8 second.

    Looking for some really slow opposition to play against.............Ex -pros need not apply 😆

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