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  1. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    All those adds that talk about control are false. People have control, not equipment.
    All those adds that talk about power are false. People generate the power. The equipment just transfers energy.
    Not much to say except that people should consider what BrokenBall is saying and try to understand it.
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  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #22
    I feel like I can use most stuff that is on the market. A lot of the fancy new rubbers that are coming out, I have a feeling a lot of them, the performance has a certain amount to do with how they are boosted or the performance would stay for longer.

    This is one reason why I view Tenergy differently than most of those ESN type rubbers. I have no idea if they add boost or something to Tenergy. But the performance lasts much longer and does not have this big performance drop-off after a few weeks of using the way so many other modern rubbers have.

    So, to me, Tenergy is different and is pretty high quality, especially considering how long ago it was developed. I have not tried Dignics. But, I have a feeling that lasts longer than most other rubbers as well (except D09c which I have heard shows topsheet wear quite quickly).

    But it does seem that a lot of the TT marketing does seem silly to me. And yet, I could use any of the stuff on the market that I have tried.

    So....it is worth examining how easily some people are manipulated by simple marketing techniques.

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  3. yogi_bear is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Not much to say except that people should consider what BrokenBall is saying and try to understand it.

    If this is all about people then it only means people should not use rubbers such as T64 and just use pan asia or addoy rubbers. This is the danger when someone will not or is not able to tell the difference a rubber speed for. Sure the player is the main factor but why is the concept of energy transfer effeciency not mentioned or purposedly left out? A rubber or blade reacts to the amount of force it is being applied to. Are you saying the rubbers and blades just have an equal reaction despite having different characteristics and composition? Are you saying that a pan asia rubber has no difference producing the speed against a Bryce speed rubber if both have the same force applied? Hey after all it is only the person that generates the speed!!! This is the danger when someone who is ignorant of actual table tennis plays especially on the advanced stuff march in and then declares silly stuff. As what i have said, if your skills are lousy with no feel of the ball, go back practicing and develop your skills. If you cannot even differentiate the amount of spin a tacky chinese rubber can generate vs a non tacky rubber, again go back practicing your skills and touchy feel. A physics teacher with little or no knowledge of the game cannot coach effectively in table tennis. The one who thinks like this is so full of himself!

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  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    If this is all about people then it only means people should not use rubbers such as T64 and just use pan asia or addoy rubbers. This is the danger when someone will not or is not able to tell the difference a rubber speed for. Sure the player is the main factor but why is the concept of energy transfer effeciency not mentioned or purposedly left out? A rubber or blade reacts to the amount of force it is being applied to. Are you saying the rubbers and blades just have an equal reaction despite having different characteristics and composition? Are you saying that a pan asia rubber has no difference producing the speed against a Bryce speed rubber if both have the same force applied? Hey after all it is only the person that generates the speed!!! This is the danger when someone who is ignorant of actual table tennis plays especially on the advanced stuff march in and then declares silly stuff. As what i have said, if your skills are lousy with no feel of the ball, go back practicing and develop your skills. If you cannot even differentiate the amount of spin a tacky chinese rubber can generate vs a non tacky rubber, again go back practicing your skills and touchy feel. A physics teacher with little or no knowledge of the game cannot coach effectively in table tennis. The one who thinks like this is so full of himself!

    What I am actually saying is, if you each purposely misunderstand each other and make false arguments, then you will continue to antagonize each other without ever having tried to understand what the other is saying.

    No need to argue or make fake arguments.

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  5. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #25
    But I do have a friend who usually plays with a 2x4 that is approximately 10" long (254mm). He switches hands freely to the point that most people cannot tell if he is lefty or righty. He also plays with a shoe, a rock, a tennis ball as a racket and can play at a decently high level: if you know USATT ratings, somewhere around 1800 which is pretty good for a guy who is obviously just clowning around.

    Would he be better with good equipment? I am not so sure. Maybe.

    I know other people, higher level who can play over 2000 with a lollipop or a piece of wood.

    Does that mean I would rather play with a recreational racket than a good blade with good rubbers: No. I like what I use. But I could use anything. I am sure, you would be fine as well.

    But none of this is the issue. Whether the new equipment is good or not is not the same issue as whether the TT companies lie to you and use gimmicks to try and make you think you need to try the new stuff.

    And if someone gave me a Yinhe 986 blade with two decent Chinese rubbers and I just boosted when I needed, I may not be quite as happy as when using what I use, because what I use would feel much better, I still could use that setup without significant loss of level. Minor loss of level, maybe. But, at some point, maybe not. So, I use what I use because it feels good to me and I enjoy using it.

    But, often, what players would play best with, and what they use, are not at all the same; and sometimes this is because they were tricked somehow into thinking they needed equipment that is faster than what would be most beneficial for them.
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  6. yogi_bear is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    But I do have a friend who usually plays with a 2x4 that is approximately 10" long (254mm). He switches hands freely to the point that most people cannot tell if he is lefty or righty. He also plays with a shoe, a rock, a tennis ball as a racket and can play at a decently high level: if you know USATT ratings, somewhere around 1800 which is pretty good for a guy who is obviously just clowning around.

    Would he be better with good equipment? I am not so sure. Maybe.

    I know other people, higher level who can play over 2000 with a lollipop or a piece of wood.

    Does that mean I would rather play with a recreational racket than a good blade with good rubbers: No. I like what I use. But I could use anything. I am sure, you would be fine as well.

    But none of this is the issue. Whether the new equipment is good or not is not the same issue as whether the TT companies lie to you and use gimmicks to try and make you think you need to try the new stuff.

    And if someone gave me a Yinhe 986 blade with two decent Chinese rubbers and I just boosted when I needed, I may not be quite as happy as when using what I use, because what I use would feel much better, I still could use that setup without significant loss of level. Minor loss of level, maybe. But, at some point, maybe not. So, I use what I use because it feels good to me and I enjoy using it.

    But, often, what players would play best with, and what they use, are not at all the same; and sometimes this is because they were tricked somehow into thinking they needed equipment that is faster than what would be most beneficial for them.

    the point is not on whether they would play a recreational racket or not. The point is there is such a difference in equipment nowadays compared to the older ones. Not recognizing the difference is a great bias. by the way, i do not make false arguments. It was clearly documented here in the forum the antics and outrageous statements hard headed engineer has made. I am just getting back to them.

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  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    the point is not on whether they would play a recreational racket or not. The point is there is such a difference in equipment nowadays compared to the older ones. Not recognizing the difference is a great bias. by the way, i do not make false arguments. It was clearly documented here in the forum the antics and outrageous statements hard headed engineer has made. I am just getting back to them.

    I highly doubt that BrokenBall would argue that all wood has the same rebound speed, that all sponge has the same rebound speed, or that all topsheets have the same elasticity and grip. And if you are saying he is saying that, then, you probably have misunderstood what he said, and you are attempting to say he said things he did not say.

    What I hear from BrokenBall is that he is saying TT companies tell falsehoods to sell products. I will give an example: we hear a lot about tensioned rubbers. Most likely, what the TT companies are referring to is rubber compounds with a high degree of elasticity. If the rubber was tensioned, the sponge would curl. Which does happen for a while when you boost. But, then, the topsheet stretches and, at a certain point, is no longer under tension.


    Do I care when a TT company makes an add about a "High Tension Rubber". Nah. I can understand they are trying to make me think there is a scientific reason this rubber is better. I don't care. But, lots of people are fooled. Do I care if Andro shows a photo of a pro saying "made for me/made for you" to try and get people to buy either one, whether that is the people thinking "I want the one that is for a pro" or the other set of people who are thinking "I want something almost like a pro that I can handle". Nah. But it is a gimmick.

    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-30-2021 at 06:11 PM.
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  8. yogi_bear is offline
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I highly doubt that BrokenBall would argue that all wood has the same rebound speed, that all sponge has the same rebound speed, or that all topsheets have the same elasticity and grip. And if you are saying he is saying that, then, you probably have misunderstood what he said, and you are attempting to say he said things he did not say.

    What I hear from BrokenBall is that he is saying TT companies tell falsehoods to sell products. I will give an example: we hear a lot about tensioned rubbers. Most likely, what the TT companies are referring to is rubber compounds with a high degree of elasticity. If the rubber was tensioned, the sponge would curl. Which does happen for a while when you boost. But, then, the topsheet stretches and, at a certain point, is no longer under tension.

    When you make a claim that control and speed are with the player and never in part with an equipment, that is a highly ignorant claim. Hence, my argument of that different equipment have different speed offerings. Hard-headed engineer refuses to accept this and continues to argue that it is the player alone. If you followed what I posted I have said clearly that not all equipment produced are good. I can attest to that since I am the only one in this forum who have owned and tested equipment with a large sample and I can say there are lots of bad equipment released( i stopped counting at 200 blades and 200 rubbers). Does that mean that all equipment produced are bad and no improvement across the years? that is simply a great bias! It is easy to claim that all marketing are lies but i challenge everyone here denying the existence of better equipment and just go back playing to older generation of rubbers especially the german rubbers and see if you will not complain especially with the polyball.

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  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    When you make a claim that control and speed are with the player and never in part with an equipment, that is a highly ignorant claim. Hence, my argument of that different equipment have different speed offerings. Hard-headed engineer refuses to accept this and continues to argue that it is the player alone. If you followed what I posted I have said clearly that not all equipment produced are good. I can attest to that since I am the only one in this forum who have owned and tested equipment with a large sample and I can say there are lots of bad equipment released( i stopped counting at 200 blades and 200 rubbers). Does that mean that all equipment produced are bad and no improvement across the years? that is simply a great bias! It is easy to claim that all marketing are lies but i challenge everyone here denying the existence of better equipment and just go back playing to older generation of rubbers especially the german rubbers and see if you will not complain especially with the polyball.

    All I am saying is, it is likely, you are both misunderstanding each other. I know BrokenBall likes to argue and corner people into being wrong.

    To me, it seems you are trying to do the same to him. Just try and understand what he is saying. Or, ignore. Either would produce a better result than the arguments I have seen between you guys.

    In short, Yogi, I am asking you to work on your people skills because I think you have the potential to.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-30-2021 at 06:23 PM.
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  10. igorponger is offline
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    #30
    THERE WILL BE BIG TURMOIL DURING OLYMPICS..
    Japanese engineers have came up with a revolutionary device such as a pocket spectrometer, capable to unmask the presence of any booster in one minute. It will be a noisy turmoil in the player's camp at the ongoing Olympic tournament. IT SMELLS LIKE KEROSENE, literally.
    As a person engaged in this all affairs, I can here assume that Japanese responsible officials deliberately opened the leak of classified technical information in public media in order to create confusion and panic in the Chinese camp. Again, other foreign competitors have also got nervous creeps. For example, our Olympic national athlete has a bad habit of adding mineral oil on his rubbers so oftentimes.
    Are the Japanese doing the right thing, whipping up a nervous wave and spreading panic among their rivals? Yes, this is very permissible and does not conflict with the laws of fair play. The stakes are very high, with Olympic gold and the honor of the Japanese nation at stake.

    @ Alyager com alyager.
    ________
    However, you can"t intimidate the Chinese Olympians anyway. From a technical point of view, the Chinese can quickly adapt to the non-boosting restrictions, they will use some "innocent" rubber without a factory booster. DHS have already had such unboosted rubbers in stock a lot.
    Last edited by igorponger; 05-30-2021 at 07:02 PM.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    All I am saying is, it is likely, you are both misunderstanding each other. I know BrokenBall likes to argue and corner people into being wrong.

    To me, it seems you are trying to do the same to him. Just try and understand what he is saying. Or, ignore. Either would produce a better result than the arguments I have seen between you guys.

    In this case, his extreme generalizations lead to misinformation which I am greatly against. It is acceptable to criticize some equipment to be bad but to generalize and SLANDER TT companies that all equipment released were only sweetened by just marketing with no such differences is a disgrace especially if one has not tried them nor have the skills to fully use them!

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    #32
    Yep, people produce & transfer energy, but rubbers can have different efficiency levels when it comes to transferring that energy.
    The ‘bounce test’ shows this to certain extent. A ball dropped from the same height bounces less for a tacky top sheet than it generally does for grippy one. Its the level of rubber tackiness that can make a difference not necessarily the sponge.
    Having said that, some sponges are also more effective/efficient at transferring energy.

    Skill levels of players also has a big say!!! If you are a technically good player with solid strokes all round, as Carl said he can play with pretty much most rubbers out there, it’s just a matter of choosing which one you like best, a lot of rubbers are in the same ‘ball park’ as it were.

    Andro’s ‘Made for me, Made for you’ Yep there’s hype involved, but the ad that’s flicking over on the right of my screen as I write this, makes no mention of the respective rubbers performances. It doesn’t say this does more or less, is better or worse !!! It just hints that R53 is better suited for Pro’s, and R45 is better suited for amateur’s.
    They did the same for R48 !!! But now I guess it’s much harder for them to get a ‘known’ player that fits into the middle bracket!!!!
    Pretty good marketing though!! Some will see it and just go all out ‘I want to use what a Pro uses’ regardless of their own ability. Others may think, ok I’m not at a Pro’s level, and get R48/45 instead!!!!

    Manufacturers can’t really say something like ‘ 6 yrs in development, 25,000 hrs testing, has resulted in the optimum rubber for YOU
    LESS SPEED, LESS SPIN, LESS CONTROL !!! Ohhh sod it just use the old version it was way better!!!

  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear

    In this case, his extreme generalizations lead to misinformation which I am greatly against. It is acceptable to criticize some equipment to be bad but to generalize and SLANDER TT companies that all equipment released were only sweetened by just marketing with no such differences is a disgrace especially if one has not tried them nor have the skills to fully use them!

    Yeah. Extreme generalizations and propping up false arguments to tear down invisible opponents and straw men.....

    I am asking you to be mature and sidestep all of this and not fall into the same traps. Ignore, don't get drawn in.

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    #34
    About control. Put a paddle on the table and it just rests there. The paddle can not see the ball. The paddle has no feed back. The paddle cannot move on its own. When the player picks up the paddle, he is controlling it. The paddle does not and can not control itself.
    This is something Yogi doesn't seem to understand.

    In control we use a term called 'gain' which is a ratio of output to input. There is a feed back loop that allows the controller go adjust ( adapt ) so the actual position, velocity and acceleration matches the target position, velocity and acceleration for what is being controlled. Control in influenced by the update rate ( reaction time) and input and output resolution ( touch ). Faster updated and more resolution is better.

    IB66 seems to have a reasonable handle on this 'hype" issue.

    Yes, equipment has different levels of efficiency. It is measured by the coefficient of restitution. This number will be in the range of 0.6 to 0.7 for most paddles. The ball dropping on a steel slab has a COR of about 0.9 plus or minus a little. With paddles the COR will be much less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi
    When you make a claim that control and speed are with the player and never in part with an equipment, that is a highly ignorant claim. Hence, my argument of that different equipment have different speed offerings. Hard-headed engineer refuses to accept this and continues to argue that it is the player alone.
    This is a misrepresentation of what I said. Power and control are a function of the player. I said nothing about speed. The COR ( efficiency ) of the paddle does play a part there. I have mention COR many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi
    In this case, his extreme generalizations lead to misinformation which I am greatly against.
    What generalizations? Be specific.
    You can't refute my statements about control and power.
    The TT companies rely on the ignorance and gullibility of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi
    It is acceptable to criticize some equipment to be bad but to generalize and SLANDER TT companies that all equipment released were only sweetened by just marketing with no such differences is a disgrace especially if one has not tried them nor have the skills to fully use them!
    Show us a TT add with facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by USDC
    All I am saying is, it is likely, you are both misunderstanding each other. I know BrokenBall likes to argue and corner people into being wrong.
    I don't corner people into being wrong. They put themselves in the corner. I just keep them there.
    I am very good at this since I have 25+ years on engineering forums arguing with other so called engineers. Professors are lots of fun.
    There are engineering myths too.


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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    ...All those adds that talk about control are false. People have control, not equipment.
    All those adds that talk about power are false. People generate the power. The equipment just transfers energy.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Not much to say except that people should consider what BrokenBall is saying and try to understand it.
    Let's see...

    Given that
    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/speed...92.html#549592
    Rubbers and blades don't generate power unless you burn them.
    For people to generate power, it follows that this must occur. 🤔

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Yes, at least someone remembers.

    For people to generate power, it follows that this must occur. 🤔

    Silly. More marketing.

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    #37
    A good video on the effects of different equipment in tt is this (it's also very entertaining):




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    #38
    It seems to me control, speed, spin are relative as you can't have them all in a racket/rubber combo. I will buy a rubber/paddle combo if it can give me all of these factors. That is the objective part of it. Now when it comes to skill on how to feel a ball then generate the drive/loop/drop/block/etc. you want that is another part that needs more discussion.

    The fact is that ALL table tennis equipment makers must make profits to survive --> marketing and suckers are needed. I can't imagine a Dignic rubber costs more than my brand-new Camry's car tire!

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    #39
    I agree, there is a lot of marketing involved most inverted rubbers perform in the same range etc, differences are sometimes small

    BUT

    There are differences and that is just undeniable, check out this Timo Boll video

    The differences between the Fast bat and slow bat here are more then 20km when compared

    A ball advancing 20 km faster at you is a big difference and WILL influence the match.
    And this is just speed, there is also spin and trajectory etc

    So for me this video really proves that equipment also matters and it's for each to find out what suits their play style the best


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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroTT
    I agree, there is a lot of marketing involved most inverted rubbers perform in the same range etc, differences are sometimes small

    BUT

    There are differences and that is just undeniable, check out this Timo Boll video
    I don't deny it.
    The OP wants to know about the worst technologies/gimmics. My point is that almost all technologies are gimmicks because they don't allow you to do something special that can't be done with out the gimmick.
    I said almost. I am waiting for someone to mention an exception.

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