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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    So many factors, factored by too many variables.
    Don't make it harder than it needs to be. This a problem too many engineers have so they don't even try.
    I could calculate the COR of a paddle by shooting or dropping many balls on a rubber and measuring the rebound. I could calculate and average with a standard deviation. I could do a similar test for spin. Next is he variability of the player.
    What more do you think is needed?

    I may need to get geeky. I have a program that will compute the trajectory given initial speed and spin. I could show how the inconsistency changes the trajectories of the ball. I can also work it backwards so that if I know the trajectory of the ball, I can determine the coefficients for the differential equations. I am hoping that people will understand my simple explanations first.

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    #22
    And that would be useful how, exactly? There are a large but finite number of rubber/blade combos, but an infinite number of players, each of whom will vary somewhat in control from day to day and moment to moment.

    Rational players already know if they can control their equipment reasonably well such that the spin/speed benefits outweigh or at least equal the costs.

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    #23
    From BB’s 1st post

    “The next step is to see how inconsistency in the stroke is magnified by equipment with higher spin and speed ratings.
    This what I am thinking about now. I am trying to find the right words. It isn't easy.”


    And the flip side could be ‘ how the results of inconsistency of the stroke are lessened by equipment with lower spin and speed ratings’ what is commonly described (rightly or wrongly) as ‘more forgiving’

    The above could vary depending on which stroke is being played against which type of incoming ball speed , spin etc

    There are also concepts regarding the type of equipment used by beginners or new comers to the game, home recreational players etc wanting to improve and start attending a club or coaching sessions.
    Usually a ‘low quality’ paddle and rubber combo bat is being used, perhaps a couple of bats that were supplied with a table, or purchased form a high street retailer.
    I would say that maybe 90% of the time a (good) coach will take a look at the bat and give the person a spare more suitable bat to use and advise them to buy a similar bat to that being lent to them.
    So there is a a sort of cut off point where a bat with lower spin and / or speed capabilities is considered unsuitable. This cut off point may actually make the ‘flip side’ I wrote about, as not being completely correct!!!
    Why? Because the new recommended set up will be generally easier to use (after some play time and coaching) to produce a type of stroke and results from that stroke that is considered desirable.

    Would there be an improvement of shot quality, spin etc if the new comer decided not to have lesions, go home and carry on playing at home with the borrowed bat?
    In this instance, if the player had been monitored whilst playing at home with the old bat, and again a
    using the borrowed bat, with no change to their stroke, the same stroke inconsistency, this time the stroke inconsistency is unchanged / constant, and the equipment is the differing factor.
    With the results of the monitoring confirming that less errors were made with the new ‘borrowed’ bat, shot grouping was tighter, spin was better and so on, would the equipment then be described as having more CONTROL?? (Rightly or wrongly!!!)
    I’m not saying this is correct!! Just throwing a different scenario out there!!

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    And that would be useful how, exactly? There are a large but finite number of rubber/blade combos, but an infinite number of players, each of whom will vary somewhat in control from day to day and moment to moment.
    Players do not hit the ball the same way each time. There are little inconsistencies. These can be measured and a standard deviation can be calculated. That is one way of measuring the control of a player. Now say you want to hit a ball to land at a certain spot on the table. There is an optimal speed and spin that will achieve this goal. However, since our strokes are not consistent there will be variations in the initial speed and spin. The trajectory program can then calculate how far the ball will travel from the desired target. Then trajectory must clear the net and still hit the table. The variances will cause some calculated trajectories to hit the net or fly of the end of the table. A person with consistent strokes will have what target shooters call a "tight" grouping.

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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    From BB’s 1st post

    “The next step is to see how inconsistency in the stroke is magnified by equipment with higher spin and speed ratings.
    This what I am thinking about now. I am trying to find the right words. It isn't easy.”


    And the flip side could be ‘ how the results of inconsistency of the stroke are lessened by equipment with lower spin and speed ratings’ what is commonly described (rightly or wrongly) as ‘more forgiving’

    The above could vary depending on which stroke is being played against which type of incoming ball speed , spin etc

    There are also concepts regarding the type of equipment used by beginners or new comers to the game, home recreational players etc wanting to improve and start attending a club or coaching sessions.
    Usually a ‘low quality’ paddle and rubber combo bat is being used, perhaps a couple of bats that were supplied with a table, or purchased form a high street retailer.
    I would say that maybe 90% of the time a (good) coach will take a look at the bat and give the person a spare more suitable bat to use and advise them to buy a similar bat to that being lent to them.
    So there is a a sort of cut off point where a bat with lower spin and / or speed capabilities is considered unsuitable. This cut off point may actually make the ‘flip side’ I wrote about, as not being completely correct!!!
    Why? Because the new recommended set up will be generally easier to use (after some play time and coaching) to produce a type of stroke and results from that stroke that is considered desirable.

    Would there be an improvement of shot quality, spin etc if the new comer decided not to have lesions, go home and carry on playing at home with the borrowed bat?
    In this instance, if the player had been monitored whilst playing at home with the old bat, and again a
    using the borrowed bat, with no change to their stroke, the same stroke inconsistency, this time the stroke inconsistency is unchanged / constant, and the equipment is the differing factor.
    With the results of the monitoring confirming that less errors were made with the new ‘borrowed’ bat, shot grouping was tighter, spin was better and so on, would the equipment then be described as having more CONTROL?? (Rightly or wrongly!!!)
    I’m not saying this is correct!! Just throwing a different scenario out there!!
    Perhaps the term CONSISTENCY / CONSISTENT should be used rather than CONTROL when we write equipment reviews!! 😁

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    #26
    ..................and do not forget to take into the equation the room temperature and moisture content............😁

    Wednesday night i played with a club that has the room heated and Thursday night in a bigger hall where
    it was cold and miserable. Same blade, same rubbers but in the cold everything worked completely different...........
    Mind though I still had a lot of fun in both venues.

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Perhaps the term CONSISTENCY / CONSISTENT should be used rather than CONTROL when we write equipment reviews!! 😁
    we all know that rubbers will change as a function of temperature and humidity but I want to stress that they don't change a measurable amount within a match. I really don't see this as a problem in an air conditioned room. The major factor with inconsistency is the player.

    I like the idea of rating the consistency of rubber and blades but how would you measure it.

    Langel said there are too many variables. I have been able to model systems with as many as 25 variables. When I have be challenged on things like humidity and temperature I ask if the customer want so add he temperature and humidity sensors and the computer inputs to record them. The answer is always no because the customer knows they don't vary that much.

    However, I have customers that claim to to be able to position with 0.1 micron resolution. Think about this because the best so far in semiconductors is 0.007 microns. 0.1 microns resolution not accuracy and metal expands and contracts much more than that as temperature changes.

    My point is that you can say there are too many variables but you must ask, how many realistically change in a short period of time.

    Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

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    #28
    Ahh, air-conditioned rooms to play TT. Very nice !
    I am not disputing what you are saying of course but it is winter here and playing one night in a 22 degree centigrade
    hall and the next night in a 13 degree hall made one heck of a difference...................but , never mind 😁

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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    This is why I doubt reviews. I would trust a machine.

    If your can't quantify it then how valid is your opinion.
    You cannot assign constant number, but I believe that it is possible to quantify it. Just no one tried (and I suppose it is pretty useless, because it depends on a person too)
    The difference in our approaches is that you want to have function like "Control(paddle)" and say that there is no such thing. And I agree, however I'm telling that there is such thing like "Control(paddle, player, opponent)" and it is not only about speed and spin of the paddle. But it is not only about player skills neither, there is a part of paddle in that equation too, like if
    Control(paddle1, player1, opponent) > Control(paddle1, player2, opponent) doesn't automatically mean that
    Control(paddle2, player1, opponent) > Control(paddle2, player2, opponent)

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    #30
    I agree we need to look at external factors in the environment as well. Pimples are very sensitive too humid environments and it is not true that the conditions always are so good that there is no humidity so the rubber is not affected by it.

    Also different venue(what is the correct word for this?), where you play also change the feeling of control. Some venues have one kind of hit and others a different one and some are faster and some slower. I am a bit interesting why it is like this. Do anyone know? Air?

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    #31
    Control is the ability of a player to prove effective in given circumstances.
    It’s very difficult for Any player, no matter the level, to be effective in All circumstances.
    It’s a matter of thresholds and margins, concerning everything about the player, as a subjective element, and the “objective” factors, such as set up, playing hall conditions factors, tables, balls, etc. /I hate “etc.”, because in the Engineering University it’s a forbidden expression, for it gives zero information, so you have to either miss it, or replace it with something more informative, but here I feel free to use it/.
    Set up consistency – neither the rubbers, nor the blades, are as consistent as you think. Rubbers differ in hardness consistency not only between batches, but in the surface of every single sheet, blades differ in sweet spot and overall consistency, all depending on inner and external factors, such as material fatigue, temperature, humidity, even biological disturbance like fungus and bacteria. You may feel it, or you may not, and it’s again about thresholds and margins, conjunction between the personal doors of perception and the objective characteristics of the set up and the environment.
    Balls are not consistent – neither between producers and models, nor between batches.
    Tables are not consistent the same way.
    We may divide the initial “control” definition into several sub factors:
    1. Control on the set up.

    It’s the synergy between the blade and the rubbers and the synergy between you and the bat.
    1. Control on the environment.

    What are your personal thresholds and margins regarding different environment characteristics, such as hall size, ceiling height, light, temperature, humidity, etc. /etc. again, ahrrr/.
    1. Control on the contact elements, different from the described in article 2

    The ball, the table, the floor.

    What is your ability to keep in order with all of the above mentioned circumstances, or part of them, or any combination of the many factors described?

    How does your control suffer, depending on the change of some of these factors?

    Conjunctions
    Player A is very consistent when playing with a robot – 90+% effective.
    Player A is very consistent in coach sessions.
    Player A is very consistent in his matches against player B, and he seems to be superior.
    Player A has some troubles with player C, who is a chopper.
    That all happens in Hall X on Butterfly Europa 25 tables.
    But in Hall Y, on Butterfly Centrefold 25+ Gloss, player A has big troubles with player B, missing a lot of his top spins, and curiously player A has big success against the cutter, player B.
    In Hall Z player A is very confused with the Joola tables, losing to both players B and C.

    Butterfly Europa 25 is a standard ITTF table when tested, but in play it has a higher top spin and lower underspin repulse. At the same time it is very ball type tolerant.
    Butterfly Centrefold 25 Matt is a better repulse balanced table, but with slightly more expressed reaction to the different balls.
    Butterfly Centrefold 25+ Gloss is a superb table with excellent characteristics, keeping both the speed and the spin of the ball in the best way. And the ball matters a lot.
    Joola … well, uhrrr, …

    Sound

    According to some scientific reports sound may be most important to all players, regardless the level.
    Both amateurs and pros, from beginners to very experienced, react to sound in a very similar way.
    But different balls have different sound, and that sound dynamically changes in different way for every ball type, depending on speed, spin, angle, The Table, the floor, the hall.

    Some players have lower thresholds and wider margins, some the opposite.
    Even top players can suffer from occasional stack of factors, that misfit their best area of control.

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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Having caught up on the TTD D09C v H3 thread, where the last few posts have been discussing 'CONTROL' of equipment.
    Where some excellent posts have been made by BB, USDC and DE to name a few.
    I just had to start the thread mentioned as #CONTROL !!!
    So apologies for hijacking the start of the thread !!
    Additional apologies if I have not been specific enough or too specific, complicating the discussion!!!

    I have added some additional headings in brackets (these can be expanded on if you feel some more 'sections' are necessary or removed if they over complicate,)

    SCIENCE - How does the science dictate the 'control' a rubber has without human interference? What scientific tests would be required to 'prove' that the science theory / equations etc are correct, or can establish what a rubbers 'characteristics' or 'behaviour' will be. How can science assist in

    ABILITY - In general terms how does a players ability effect their 'CONTROL' of a rubber/blades characteristics?

    PERCEPTION - How we as players 'perceive' CONTROL / performance of a product / rubber etc

    REALITY - what actually happens when we use said equipment !!! HAHA down to earth with a resounding jolt!!

    CIRCUMSTANCES - type of stroke being played, how do the different strokes relate to control? What stroke mechanics / techniques (mental and physical) can assist with a player having better control.

    From reading Der's. Carl's & BB's posts there's generally a lot more to the subject of '#CONTROL' than first meets the eye!!!

    It may be a good idea to start off with the initial 'SCIENCE' side of things to start with, but I think that getting too deep into complicated equations etc may go straight over many of our heads!!! So how best to simplify things? I'll leave that up to those more qualified to decide !!! (total cop out on my part!!!)

    Lets hope that this thread will be interesting, informative , educational and good fun!!!

    well
    I think that though this is a fascinating area to discuss, it has all been kind of fuzzy so far

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    #33
    I've noticed recently that there are a couple of 'conditions or surroundings' that have affected my consistency and quality.

    When serve practicing at home in the garage, everything is fairly closed in, the wall I face when serving is maybe 6 to 7 feet away (1.8 to 2.1m) the wall colour varies as there are shelves with different coloured pots equipment etc on them.
    when serving at the training sessions I attend, the venue is a typical school sports hall, I think there is space for 4 badminton courts, we take up about a 1/4 of the hall space, and can usually get 6 or at a push 7 tables next to each other (single file) across our section of the hall. wall colour is consistent, to the wall to either side of the tables are painted a cream colour, not ideal !!
    Nice dark green netting to one and mid blue to the other wall you face in general play (these are therefore behind your opponent and provide an excellent background colour.)
    When taking my service stance for serving a FH pendulum serve, I am facing the cream walls, the colour combined with the depth or distance to the far wall makes if harder for me to see the ball well when the ball is tossed!! my consistency drops. I think that maybe the wall colour is the larger factor in causing my drop in consistency, which is in effect MY control.
    'Spaciousness' could have an impact as well. I definitely feel more comfortable playing within slightly more 'confined' spaces!!!


    Tables surfaces definitely have an impact, finish and thickness, glossy or dull, how 'fast' a table plays etc
    table at home has 22mm top and a matt dark green finish that has a characteristic of reacting to spin more, more friction? so the ball tends to move more from the bounce, for a heavy backspin serve, the ball 'holds up' better and returns to the net easily. the tables at the training sessions have a 19mm thick top, lighter green glossy(ish) surface and don't 'hold up' the ball as well, less balls return to the net.

    This is sort of a 'double edged sword' regarding the quality of the serve.
    higher friction surface - removes slightly more of the spin on the ball, but allows that spin to engage with the surface, opponent has slightly less spin to deal with, but the ball is more likely not to go past the end of the table, reducing opponents choice of shot or chance of them looping the ball. it can be easier for me to control the length of the ball.
    lower friction surface - removes slightly less of the spin on the ball, the spin on the ball doesn't engage with the table surface as much, however the opponent may have slightly more spin to deal with. but my control of the length of the serve can be harder. !!!

    Which table surface type suits me better??? which surface type promotes better 'quality' of shot??? to a certain extent the characteristics of the playing surface can effect a players CONSISTENCY and QUALITY of shot.
    "RAFA NADAL LOVES CLAY COURTS" springs to mind!!!!

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    #34
    For a player's part, feel and skill are the most important things. Number crunching is a waste of time when it should be spent on practice. There are trivial things like quantification of a factor that is insignificant when you can just play with an equipment and check it is suited for you or not. Stop wasting your time over analyzing things for equipment.
    ​​​​

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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    For a player's part, feel and skill are the most important things. Number crunching is a waste of time when it should be spent on practice. There are trivial things like quantification of a factor that is insignificant when you can just play with an equipment and check it is suited for you or not. Stop wasting your time over analyzing things for equipment.
    ​​​​

    He has a math hammer and everything looks like a nail.

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    #36
    I am not object to what yogi says about the player being the most important part. I have stated the it is the player that has the control.
    1. The player moves the paddle. Without the player the paddle just sits there.
    2. No one has refuted my statement above about switching paddles. The control does not move with the paddle. It stays with the player.

    Yes, I have a math/statistical/physics hammer and I know how to quantify things. So? Lord Kelvin thought it was a good idea. Otherwise you guys are just spreading myths and opinions.

    The problem I have with the posts above is that they forgot to mention blue moons or when the planets align. They are not helping and distracting from the main question about whether it is the player or the equipment that has control. I want EVERYONE that mentions control again to also specify the temperature, humidity, phase of the moon etc. I would expect the TT manufacturers to do the same. All these different things make any concept of consistency meaningless and if you still believe the equipment has control then it make the concept of control meaningless.

    Seriously, I said within a game or match. I know conditions change. People are adaptable. Refute what I have said in points 1 and 2 above.



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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I am not object to what yogi says about the player being the most important part. I have stated the it is the player that has the control.
    1. The player moves the paddle. Without the player the paddle just sits there.
    2. No one has refuted my statement above about switching paddles. The control does not move with the paddle. It stays with the player.

    Yes, I have a math/statistical/physics hammer and I know how to quantify things. So? Lord Kelvin thought it was a good idea. Otherwise you guys are just spreading myths and opinions.

    The problem I have with the posts above is that they forgot to mention blue moons or when the planets align. They are not helping and distracting from the main question about whether it is the player or the equipment that has control. I want EVERYONE that mentions control again to also specify the temperature, humidity, phase of the moon etc. I would expect the TT manufacturers to do the same. All these different things make any concept of consistency meaningless and if you still believe the equipment has control then it make the concept of control meaningless.

    Seriously, I said within a game or match. I know conditions change. People are adaptable. Refute what I have said in points 1 and 2 above.

    I get the feeling the vast majority agree that the player has control, it sounds ridiculous to think that equipment themselves have control and doesn't seem that's what people are thinking when they say that x rubber or blade has control. People use the word control quite ambiguously, which appears to be your issue with it. Most people aren't that precise with their language all the time. Though it's important to understand what people mean when they say control. So reviews could make this extra clear. "By control we mean this and this, etc". But I think most intuitively understand what they mean. When people talk about control I also feel like they often mean how easy it is to handle and get the ball on the table without much effort, that could also convert into consistency.

    If you played with a plank, would you have more "control" compared to a normal bat? The answer is obvious. By that I don't mean that the plank has any control, it's simply not a useful tool to achieve the stuff you want to achieve when hitting a plastic ball on a table and having to deal with all the things your opponent could throw at you with normal TT equipment. It's easier to achieve the stuff you want to achieve with a table tennis bat than with a plank. It's a tool more suited to its purpose - hence more controllable or easier to use than a plank for that purpose. Some equipment in TT are more suited for advanced players and others for beginners and amateurs. Advanced players will still be able to control all TT equipment well, but it might not be optimal for their needs, which is especially sensitive at the top level. In general, I believe inverted grippy rubbers are similar enough that you can achieve most of the same stuff, but different enough that they will make some type of shots more difficult/easier to execute. If you define control by how easy and difficult it is to execute different strokes it's feasible to think that your control will be lowered or heightened by certain equipment in certain areas.








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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    The funny thing is pnachtwey used the term in his own response(surprisingly reasonable) for roughly the first year, before all of a sudden becoming self-aware like an AI and decided to go on a personal crusade to destroy any dialogue at every mention of the term.
    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum...r-users#542080
    I agree that some 'junk rubber' ( I am using then term junk as an abbreviation for LP,MP,SP and anti, I don't mean to offend anybody either as I have used them all ) is more disturbing than others but the question is why do you use it? If you want control then something like 802-40 is far better than anti,MP or LP. I don't consider 802-40 to be 'junk'. It plays a lot like inverted with a little less spin. I seriously doubt any claims that Talon or Grass Dtecs is more controllable than SP or inverted. The nearly frictionless LPs and anti can even control the spin on the ball. It this feature that make slippery rubbers effective.
    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum...fferent#611772
    Put a 0X rubber on a fast blade and see how easy it is to control. Hard bats usually use relatively slow blades because there is no sponge to absorb a fast shot so the wood must do it.
    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum...pushing#614835
    I have used CNN Pogo 0X quite bit and currently have it mounted on a 729 Bomb. I block, push, and hit with it. The spin reversal with Pogo 0X on a 729 bomb is pretty good. It is a good starter setup because it is easier to control and still be effective.
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    #39

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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy

    well
    I think that though this is a fascinating area to discuss, it has all been kind of fuzzy so far

    Agreed!! I was kinda hoping to have moved through the bracketed headings in order, or an order!!, but this is an open forum so people are free to post on what they want to when they want to!!

    For the ‘Science’ part, i was hoping to get a better understanding of some of the various factors that help predict how a ball will act when struck. How they relate to each other and as a basic example very basic!!
    All factors remain constant, incoming ball velocity, spin, height the ball is struck at, force of the stroke, bat angle, swing path etc with a standard set up ‘A’ results in the ball going over the net by 1 inch (25mm) and landing 6 inches (150mm) from the end of the table.
    Changing the standard set up by Only 1 of its scientific attributes, lets say it’s tangential COR is reduced. Then the result is that the ball lands in the net!!
    This sort of discussion some may see as ‘unnecessary’ but I feel that it should still be covered so we get a little more knowledge and can then have a better understanding.
    So a rubber with a low throw angle has a lower Tangential COR than a rubber with a high throw angle. Don’t know if that last statement is correct!!! That’s why I’d personally speaking would like a little more knowledge!!
    How does this have anything to do with control??
    If we change equipment , and the new set up has a lower throw angle and we don’t adapt our swing/bat angle and the ball continually goes in the net, then surely WE have lost CONTROL of the ball!!!

    BB decided to start of with the players inconsistency or ability, perhaps we should stick to this ‘heading’ for now and move onto another heading later.


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