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  1. burhanayan is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    Yeah, at your level, if H3 works for you, stick with what works. Ideas on what you are asking about....if you have a pretty basic level, fairly beginner player who has been using softer spring sponge type rubber and he got in his head that he wanted to switch to H3 because of stuff he read from higher level players on the internet, then, that switch would cause that player a lot of pain before he got used to the H3. But you are at a decent playing level and you are already using H3.

    I am not sure why people are telling you what they are. But use what you want. When Ma Long was the level you are, he was using H3. Somehow, he got to where he is.

    Yea, it costed me a year to get used to Friendship/729 B2. Then I realized my shot were going out too much, I needed safer rubber. Tried Neo for a while, then ended up with H3.

    I've been using tacky rubber since I had 1350 TTR.

    That Ma Long example is little bit extreme but yeah, improvement has no limit.

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    #22
    OP: Starts thread about stereotypes of tacky rubber.
    OP: Doesn't believe National H3 exists.

    Plot twist: National H3 exists.

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  3. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by burhanayan
    That Ma Long example is little bit extreme but yeah, improvement has no limit.
    I was joking which is why the smiley face is there. But, at the same time, if kids in China are using H3 and getting as good as they are, it seems that, either it is not the rubber that determines progress, or that, H3 is fine for developing skills. If you have been using it for a while and are used to it, you should be fine.

    Perhaps it is worth working on your consistency anyway. But....

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by burhanayan
    They think Top 20 are super heros and should not be considered as a reference. They mention maximum Regional League is possible which are around 2100 TTR. So they suggest the equipment that those guys use.

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    I wasn't just talking about top 20 or even top 100 players in the world. More rubbers that are harder and tacky/semitacky are now being manufactured - like dignics 09c. As your technique improves you'll better be able to utilize those rubbers, all players with solid technique use them and those players are also the ones that are most likely to be the better players in any club that's serious about table tennis. I know players like that that play in the top leagues in Sweden and they are still relatively far from being even pro players.

    That said, your coaches might be thinking that rock hard unboosted H3 rubber is unsuitable and if that's the case I'd agree. For anyone who wants to play classic two wing looper style, you're making things more difficult for yourself by using it. The pros boost these rubbers for a reason.

    But again - improvement has nothing to do with the rubbers, their characteristics will suit your playstyle more or less and you can develop skills and technique with almost any of them, staying away from the extremes would be advised.


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    #25
    So I have some thoughts on this as it's a recent thing going on in my game but first I'd like to address a different question. Based on your OP, I count 7 coaches and/or pros who have told you to do something different than what you are doing. I don't think there's an experienced forum member here who would say "don't listen to your coaches".

    - Pro player form Turkey (1)
    - Good coach from Turkey (2)
    - Private lessons 3-4 different coaches in Germany (6)
    - Another one (the one that talks about humidity) (7)

    Lets pretend for a moment you had 7 different coaches tell you to loop this way vs that. You'd be crazy not to listen to them right? Anyways, I recommend doing what your coaches say.

    __________________

    My own person experience. I've played Chinese Tacky for years & years. Probably because they were inexpensive and I liked the concept you'll hear that they force you to have good form & technique to build your foundation on. All that maybe be true. For me personally, I think the game is much more hitting into the ball more than ever in this plastic ball ear. I remember back in 40mm cellculoid days you could largely spin everything. Now I've seen the BH punch used a lot more in pro & amateur play. There's more flat hitting on high kill balls more so than ever IMO (okay if someone disagrees with this). You can tell by that unique clack sound.

    Anyways, about 2 weeks ago when admittedly I wasn't have a good practice session for fun (why not. I was playing like garbage) I tried my mate's bat. He had Rakza 7 on one side and Tenergy 05 on the other. Previously I was frustrated with my loop going long and I felt that I was picking up the ball too much vs going forward in simple topspin to topspin rallies. Suddenly everything clicked. Hitting was much more easier. It was more direct. I could feel the sponge certainly kicking in more. Now I should say always be careful about the placebo/high effect you get when you try a new rubber. "oh this is fun" and it pumps you up. But I genuinely feel like there was a quality of product difference from my $18 ish Chinese tacky rubber. Take that for what it's worth.

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by suds79
    So I have some thoughts on this as it's a recent thing going on in my game but first I'd like to address a different question. Based on your OP, I count 7 coaches and/or pros who have told you to do something different than what you are doing. I don't think there's an experienced forum member here who would say "don't listen to your coaches".

    - Pro player form Turkey (1)
    - Good coach from Turkey (2)
    - Private lessons 3-4 different coaches in Germany (6)
    - Another one (the one that talks about humidity) (7)

    Lets pretend for a moment you had 7 different coaches tell you to loop this way vs that. You'd be crazy not to listen to them right? Anyways, I recommend doing what your coaches say.

    __________________

    My own person experience. I've played Chinese Tacky for years & years. Probably because they were inexpensive and I liked the concept you'll hear that they force you to have good form & technique to build your foundation on. All that maybe be true. For me personally, I think the game is much more hitting into the ball more than ever in this plastic ball ear. I remember back in 40mm cellculoid days you could largely spin everything. Now I've seen the BH punch used a lot more in pro & amateur play. There's more flat hitting on high kill balls more so than ever IMO (okay if someone disagrees with this). You can tell by that unique clack sound.

    Anyways, about 2 weeks ago when admittedly I wasn't have a good practice session for fun (why not. I was playing like garbage) I tried my mate's bat. He had Rakza 7 on one side and Tenergy 05 on the other. Previously I was frustrated with my loop going long and I felt that I was picking up the ball too much vs going forward in simple topspin to topspin rallies. Suddenly everything clicked. Hitting was much more easier. It was more direct. I could feel the sponge certainly kicking in more. Now I should say always be careful about the placebo/high effect you get when you try a new rubber. "oh this is fun" and it pumps you up. But I genuinely feel like there was a quality of product difference from my $18 ish Chinese tacky rubber. Take that for what it's worth.

    Mate, maybe your blade doesn't pair in a good way with the H3, because telling that rakza 7 or tenergy 05 is better than a boosted H3...
    I Know that it's somethig about taste and a personal experience, but i've never seen any rubber come close in terms of performance to a boosted H3.
    Kind regards.


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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by suds79
    So I have some thoughts on this as it's a recent thing going on in my game but first I'd like to address a different question. Based on your OP, I count 7 coaches and/or pros who have told you to do something different than what you are doing. I don't think there's an experienced forum member here who would say "don't listen to your coaches".

    - Pro player form Turkey (1)
    - Good coach from Turkey (2)
    - Private lessons 3-4 different coaches in Germany (6)
    - Another one (the one that talks about humidity) (7)

    Lets pretend for a moment you had 7 different coaches tell you to loop this way vs that. You'd be crazy not to listen to them right? Anyways, I recommend doing what your coaches say.

    __________________

    My own person experience. I've played Chinese Tacky for years & years. Probably because they were inexpensive and I liked the concept you'll hear that they force you to have good form & technique to build your foundation on. All that maybe be true. For me personally, I think the game is much more hitting into the ball more than ever in this plastic ball ear. I remember back in 40mm cellculoid days you could largely spin everything. Now I've seen the BH punch used a lot more in pro & amateur play. There's more flat hitting on high kill balls more so than ever IMO (okay if someone disagrees with this). You can tell by that unique clack sound.

    Anyways, about 2 weeks ago when admittedly I wasn't have a good practice session for fun (why not. I was playing like garbage) I tried my mate's bat. He had Rakza 7 on one side and Tenergy 05 on the other. Previously I was frustrated with my loop going long and I felt that I was picking up the ball too much vs going forward in simple topspin to topspin rallies. Suddenly everything clicked. Hitting was much more easier. It was more direct. I could feel the sponge certainly kicking in more. Now I should say always be careful about the placebo/high effect you get when you try a new rubber. "oh this is fun" and it pumps you up. But I genuinely feel like there was a quality of product difference from my $18 ish Chinese tacky rubber. Take that for what it's worth.
    There are plenty of pro players and coaches that struggle to coach adults well. It's possible that they're successful with juniors and talents, which is usually the case. It's possible that they all know what they're talking about of course and usually there's something you can take from every coach and learn from. It's good to listen to them but also not blindly follow what experienced players/coaches say.

    Once I was coached by a high ranked player/coach in England, he told me to brush the ball as finely as I could, I did pretty well, after a while my arm hurt. I asked him, why is my arm hurting so much? He answered that it's not common to hit that many topspins in a row. I didn't think more of it until years later when Brett att ttedge helped me fix my technique (there's video of this), which is when I realized I wasn't using my body to propel my arm, I relied on my arm muscles which is why my arm hurt. I'm not saying the player that helped me was a bad coach, he probably suited many others out there, it's just that I like clear instruction on what I should be doing rather than half truths - more talented/smarter players than me probably intuit what to do. And these days I can more easily put into context what many coaches actually mean when they give advice.

    So yeah.. listen to your coaches, but also ask for clarity. But I'm not buying what those coaches say about tacky rubber unless OP is leaving something out. Maybe the coaches think OP is making things harder for himself by using tacky rubbers or that they don't suit his game, if so they probably have a point. But to claim that chinese rubbers are trash and that it plays differently in Germany compared to China.. I have a feeling that I'd struggle with their advice as these aren't appropriate explanations to me if I should play with chinese rubbers or not.

    As a side note - I've played with tenergy05 for about 6ish years and with Hurricane 8 and semi tacky rubber for the last year or so, I feel like I've improved a little since the switch but because of technical changes, not because of the rubber..

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  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #28
    One thing I would say is something I always say. We can't really know anything without seeing footage. In this case footage of OP using H3 and footage of OP doing same basic drills and practice with T05 or whatever rubber he is trying to compare to.

    However, at a level of 1500+ TTR, the equipment is no longer going to hinder progress. At that level, you are good enough to decide what you like playing with for yourself.

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    #29
    Currently I’m using hybrid characteristic rubbers. Rakza Z, Tau2 and H8-80, I’ve used H3 Neo Provincial, tried H3 Nat blue sponge, Skyline 3 provincial etc etc some were boosted most were not!!
    I have also used R48, MXP, MXS tested T05/T19/D09C(which I used for a while.)

    When I first got back into TT I would struggle with consistency when warming up with top spin to topspin, close to the table, I was using Golden Tango and H3Neo provincial, there
    was a lot of unforced errors, ball slipping off the rubber, or into the net and long. When playing loops there wasn’t as much of an issue. My coach didn’t tell me not to use tacky Chinese rubbers, but did sort of turn his nose up at them!!
    He also advised me to try MXP, so I did, my consistency improved slightly, eliminated the ball slippage.
    Now I could have put this down to the change of rubber, but there were still too many errors.
    it wasn’t the equipment it was MY poor technique, my coach has helped me improve my technique and now it doesn’t really matter whether what type of rubber I use now, it just takes a little time to adapt slightly.

    Personally I would say that using a rubber such as H3 makes you play a stroke correctly, slightly more so than than a bouncy type rubber.
    But, At the end of the day, good technique is good technique.
    Sometimes technique has to be tweaked to suit. For example 2 different bouncy rubbers, one has a low throw, one a high throw (For your stroke) you will need to adapt / tweak your technique to suit, same goes for tacky and bouncy rubbers.

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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    Currently I’m using hybrid characteristic rubbers. Rakza Z, Tau2 and H8-80, I’ve used H3 Neo Provincial, tried H3 Nat blue sponge, Skyline 3 provincial etc etc some were boosted most were not!!
    I have also used R48, MXP, MXS tested T05/T19/D09C(which I used for a while.)

    When I first got back into TT I would struggle with consistency when warming up with top spin to topspin, close to the table, I was using Golden Tango and H3Neo provincial, there
    was a lot of unforced errors, ball slipping off the rubber, or into the net and long. When playing loops there wasn’t as much of an issue. My coach didn’t tell me not to use tacky Chinese rubbers, but did sort of turn his nose up at them!!
    He also advised me to try MXP, so I did, my consistency improved slightly, eliminated the ball slippage.
    Now I could have put this down to the change of rubber, but there were still too many errors.
    it wasn’t the equipment it was MY poor technique, my coach has helped me improve my technique and now it doesn’t really matter whether what type of rubber I use now, it just takes a little time to adapt slightly.

    Personally I would say that using a rubber such as H3 makes you play a stroke correctly, slightly more so than than a bouncy type rubber.
    But, At the end of the day, good technique is good technique.
    Sometimes technique has to be tweaked to suit. For example 2 different bouncy rubbers, one has a low throw, one a high throw (For your stroke) you will need to adapt / tweak your technique to suit, same goes for tacky and bouncy rubbers.

    Using MXP or other euro or softer rubbers than chinese rubbers tends to allow you to get away with slower swings, I'm guessing that's why your consistency improved a little. The swing could be slow and inconsistent if you rely mostly on the arm to do the work. If you use hard chinese rubber you'll realize it won't work well and will be more inconsistent than if you used a softer, more forgiving rubber. Maybe you'll muscle the shot or you might intuitively figure out more efficient technique. I think it's commonly suggested that tacky rubbers and allwood blades help you improve. I believe that's because they might help you figure out how to get power by using your body - because you just can't get power from just using your arm with that kind of equipment.

    Softer and bouncier rubbers will make it feel good to use inefficient technique (like just using your arm) and you can play well like that (and for those with certain injuries that might be preferred!), but in the long run I don't think it's good for improvement for fit & healthy players. I have personal experience of years of horrible technique and using bouncy rubbers. But my lack of technique was more because of lack of knowledge and lack of exposure to players with efficient technique, some equipment might have suited me better though.

    I droned on a bit about technique as I often do here, but it isn't everything. Table tennis can be played in many ways and I suggest OP does what feels best for him. If you enjoy playing with tacky rubbers, why not? I personally don't think they'll make much a difference to your improvement for better or worse.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Perhaps it is worth working on your consistency anyway. But....
    The one coach that mentioned humidity-rubber relation, actually helped me to be overcome my guessing problem, thus consistency, during playing topspin by a multiball excercise as such;
    - Coach does hitting motion on every shot to forehand and he doesn't hit the ball every time.
    - Player is not allowed to move before coach hits. Player should wait at the end of follow through motion until another ball is hit by coach. (Of course waiting at end of follow through motion rather than waiting at neutral position is open to debate)

    Now I am trying to wait after follow through like Fan Zhendong does. It helped me to move correctly just by watching opponent. Of course, all roads lead to Rome.

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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie

    That said, your coaches might be thinking that rock hard unboosted H3 rubber is unsuitable and if that's the case I'd agree. For anyone who wants to play classic two wing looper style, you're making things more difficult for yourself by using it. The pros boost these rubbers for a reason.

    But again - improvement has nothing to do with the rubbers, their characteristics will suit your playstyle more or less and you can develop skills and technique with almost any of them, staying away from the extremes would be advised.

    I boost them too. But not with a special "National" booster I know I am making things more difficult for myself, that's the main reason I am using it. I am not able to afford coaches for training regularly with them here like I do in Turkey. So rubber is telling me when I am doing something wrong. In addition to that, it is fun to play topspin with it

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    #33
    Hi everyone,I just want to share my experience as a TT player ( I started around six years ago ). My first rubber was the Japanese rubber TSP Ventus spin which was recommended by a local coach from my city's TT association. After playing a while, my EJ'ing nature made me switch to European rubber, Donic Bluefire M1 for FH and M2 for BH after seeing some YT video by another coach ( from another state TT association ).Later, I started experimenting with tacky chinese rubber like H3 and neoH3 because like most TT hobbyist, we get enamored with those CNT superstars and their equipment. Right now, I have gone back to Donic rubbers as my main weapon, although I can use both types of rubber interchangeably. Now, with the above background given, now I will try to give my input as a players who has played with both Jap + Euro + Chinese tacky rubber.And the answer is no, tacky rubber does not hinder your progress and neither does Euro or Jap rubber for that matter. Each has its own merits and demerits. From my own personal point of view, Chinese rubber produces some of awesome amount of spin with very low throw angle and this makes it a powerful weapon but the downside of it is, you have to be of good physical shape to maximize this potential. If your footwork is not that great, you will make more mistake than is desirable.European rubber, and in my case, the Donic M1 can produce very powerful and fast FH topspin, sometimes, shooting out like a rocket. The downside to it is there is tendency to overshoot because of the trampoline effect of the tension effect ( tensor / power sponge effect ). As such you need to really spin the ball to maximize the Magnus effect to get the ball on the table. If you accidentally flat hit even a little, you exaggerate the potential for the ball to shoot out of the table.So back to the question, does tacky chinese rubber hinder one's development? It certainly does not and it all depends on whether the coach you engage is using one himself or a Euro rubber. How you are train makes you the player in greater degree than the rubber.My two cents worth of mumbo-jumbo.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 07-23-2021 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Grammar / Typo

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    Depends, if you are trained to use tacky rubbers at day 1 no it does not hamper your development. Also, modern ESN rubbers that are tacky require less effort than using traditional Chinese rubbers due to more bouncy sponges and of course better factory tuner.

    This is the main thing. It depends on what you learned to play with.

    I should add that the notion that Chinese rubbers can only play well in a "Chinese climate" is nonsense. China is huge , and the climate varies a great deal depending on where you are. The climate in Shanghai is completely different from the climate in Chengdu. And yet Chinese players play great with Chinese tacky rubbers in both places. There's no doubt, that a Chinese top provincial level player would be able to play in the German Bundesliga with tacky Rubber and would do well.

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    #35
    Regarding the question of climate, I learned to play as a kid in Sweden and I am completely used to Japanese and European rubbers. Now I live in Houston Texas. Those of you who have been here will be aware that the humidity is extreme about 12 months out of the year. The city is more or less on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico and the prevailing winds constantly bring equatorial moisture to the city. Also the club that I spent the most time in always had horrible air conditioning, and humidity was actually worse in the winter because even what little pathetic air conditioning we did have would be turned off. We used to have condensation forming on the inside of the windows it was so bad. And even under those conditions I could never play with a tacky rubber and saw no advantage to it for the way I played. But if I'd learned to play with tacky rubbers from the beginning, things would have been different

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    #36
    Think it is difficult to say something in general. If it suits your game and you like it, then go for it.

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    #37
    I have developed college level varsity players who are just high school aged kids. They started with tacky pre-made rackets that are at 1.7mm thickness. So I think, it is a matter of coaching.
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    #38
    Pro players are pretty adaptable as they have all the skills and core mechanics that are needed to play with any (inverted) rubber and this is evidently the case as many of them are now starting to move towards grippy/tacky and harder rubbers and are doing fine with them. If you have good mechanics and skills you should be able to play with almost any inverted rubber.. just some will suit you better and at the top level everything needs to be optimized.

    Like Carl said, it seems OP plays at a level where he will do fine with tacky or euro rubbers. Improving your skills through practice, reviewing video and improving your mechanics/technique is what will improve your TT, not the rubber.

    Even if you learnt to play TT with one rubber, I still l don't think it matters later if you switch as long as you have the core mechanics in place. You'll adapt pretty fast. A few weeks ago a player a few divisions higher than me forgot his racket and used my spare racket which had hurricane 8 on it, he has pretty much always used tenergy 05. He played pretty much the same and I doubt anyone would notice any changes in his technique while he used it. He still beat everyone in the training session. Ironically, a training session later when he had his own racket he lost to me and a few others.
    Last edited by Richie; 07-23-2021 at 09:08 PM.

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal

    This is the main thing. It depends on what you learned to play with.

    I should add that the notion that Chinese rubbers can only play well in a "Chinese climate" is nonsense. China is huge , and the climate varies a great deal depending on where you are. The climate in Shanghai is completely different from the climate in Chengdu. And yet Chinese players play great with Chinese tacky rubbers in both places. There's no doubt, that a Chinese top provincial level player would be able to play in the German Bundesliga with tacky Rubber and would do well.

    while i completely agree with your statement re climate, I would like to add that the chinese tacky rubbers """CAN BE""" moisture and temperature sensitive. They will behave different when playing in dry warm conditions or cold humid conditions.

    I play one night in a dry heated hall and the next night in a very cold humid hall and have always difficulties adjusting .


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    #40
    I have played with Chinese rubbers similar to DHS H3N the laste five years now. What I have found out is that you can benefit more from these rubbers more if your technique is better.I have never played with any Provincial or National H3, only commercial versions. I feel that it's my technique and foot work that is the boundary I have to extend all the time by hard work and practice.

    My club is a very Stiga/Butterfly club, so I'm quite alone in the Chinese product area here I'm also the only one here brushing the ball, and I'm also the one all club members think have the most spin in the looping game...

    I have tried the ordinary Tenergy 05, Dignics 05, Stiga DNA etc., but playing more brush strokes doesn't give me any effect. Ah. You know what I mean. Hybrids. I have only tried the Nittaku Sieger PK50. It just felt too mushy in a way, and the Xiom TAU II. The TAU II is really close to a H3N with a softer feel, so this one works really well. I just missed the last edge of the catapult effect that I got from H3N. By the way, I've tended to go for the hardest sponges the last year, and it suites me better. Better speed and it's easier to play in a more aggressive way.

    Regarding blades. To use these rubbers and get the most out of them I have used Inner ALC blades like Yinhe V-14 Pro, DHS Power G5X and an all wood DHS Power G9. These blades gives me no vibrations when hitting the ball, and that feels better for me.Right now I use a DHS Hurricane 3 41deg and Yinhe Big Dipper 38deg with three layers of Haifu Seamoon booster, on these blades and it's the best for me so far.

    Just go your own way. Don't start using "easy" rubbers because everyone says that you should

    The Following 3 Users Like mocker88's Post:

    lodro, matzreenzi and 1 other

    Last edited by mocker88; 07-24-2021 at 06:35 AM.

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