Getting back into TT properly with the DHS Neo Hurricane 3

You can use what ever words you want. Here, in a baseball swing, the mechanics are very slightly different, you have more time, your stance can be lined up to maximize use of legs, and you can put everything into each swing since you don't need recovery time. But the forces involved in transferring power into the ball are pretty similar: You decide what the words are for how to do a smaller version of that when your feet are a little more square to the direction you are hitting and you have to recover fast.

Tango K said:

These are my 2 cents observations to notice if you’re using legs or not

If you play with a lot of arm power (which you can feel by having a lot of shoulder/upper back tension afterward) you will have difficult times to catch spinny balls and move into positions. You’ll be stronger hitting a predictable straight no spin ball which is common in basic practise but rarely seen in the match.

If you play with upper body (which you can feel by hip / lower back tension afterward) you can be spinny but you’ll feel your body a little heavy at times, difficult to move and very difficult to add extra power.

You shouldn’t feel too much if you play by the legs. Since most human legs are stronger than we think. We use them to carry our heavy body all day long.

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Serious question:

If after playing; my legs ( calves specifically ) is heavy and taut and my buttock is sore, I am using power from the ground or am I using upper body strength too much?

In the MLB swing I don’t understand but they seem to do some extra upper body twisting adding to the leg. I’m certainly nowhere near capable of understanding these movements. But probably they don’t have to recover and also they do a lot fewer reps. We do a few rotation every single point.

To Gozo: it’s my 2 cents. Don’t take it as some pro’s sort of tips 🤣 Carl does those body things so he could know a little bit. But in the end one gotta see to know. Sometimes it’s not the swing but the way you stand that takes the tons. (One of my training partners take the words “foot on toes” to the extreme and got a lot of pains on the knees for example).

Gozo said:

Serious question:

If after playing; my legs ( calves specifically ) is heavy and taut and my buttock is sore, I am using power from the ground or am I using upper body strength too much?

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You should be feeling it mostly in your dominant leg, quad and glute muscles (for the FH). It's no surprise that the pros have such big quads and strong legs. And their movement is so efficient you can hardly tell. That's what makes this so difficult, a lot of it is difficult to spot even when you know.

Though it shouldn't be painful, your muscles might feel fatigued and a bit of muscle soreness after training if you're not used to the movement. But no sharp pains.

Richie said:

You should be feeling it mostly in your dominant leg, quad and glute muscles (for the FH). It's no surprise that the pros have such big quads and strong legs. And their movement is so efficient you can hardly tell. That's what makes this so difficult, a lot of it is difficult to spot even when you know.

Though it shouldn't be painful, your muscles might feel fatigued and a bit of muscle soreness after training if you're not used to the movement. But no sharp pains.

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Yeah the sore muscle sensation is on my dominant leg. The other leg ( left ) is fine with no abnormal sensation.

Here. I have posted this many times. But, it seems to fit here. This video is me showing different details about the stroke in TT.

And, again, the stroke in TT is different than in Baseball becaue, in baseball, they don't have to recover, so they can put all the power they can into every swing if they want without penalty. I did say that above. But that is why they can use such a big "weight transfer" in baseball, that is why they can pick up the front leg to get the stride bigger (that is what they call weight transfer in baseball is the stride), that is why they can turn their waste more, that is why they can turn their upper body more, and that is also why they can follow through fully across their body: because they do not have to recover for a next shot. But still the details of how the body adds to the power as the bat intercepts the ball in a very similar way. So it is useful to look at something bigger and more powerful where all the movements are obvious.

If you watch a pro boxer punching, they actually do a lot of the same actions as well. In part, it is how the body is designed. What is different is the size of the swing and what the contact is.

So, here is my video that I have posted many times which breaks down different aspects of a TT swing:







So, as far as language, I don't care what you call things. In baseball they say stride, in TT they say weight transfer and I can see why they use different terms for an action that gives you the same thing. And in baseball, they do take a stride and in TT you wouldn't.

So, use the language you want. There are certain things that will be present in a TT power stroke that are universal to how the body works. If you were pushing a really heavy door open, you would use some of the same actions from your legs and hips. Not all, but some.

I think about it this way. Simplified a lot, there are two rotations (in the forward motion). First is the rotation of the body around its own axis, and then the actual arm swing. But these two rotations are not totally synchronous, that's the whole point, it's like the first one supercharges the second.

I like the baseball example because it's visible how one follows the other, like with a delay. It is more like an all-out loop-kill. In a more repetitive FH stroke, it is less pronounced and sometimes hard to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi_mzasEttM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpruhZL04EA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRHJv95eaQg

I was at my rebounding board doing my FH topspin as usual today and I did pay particular attention to the source of pain this round. It seems the pain is there when I play my topspin and I notice distinctively pushing / digging my dominant ball of my foot into the ground and pivot at the same time. The pain is localised at my right hip slightly above my right butt cheek. I am a right handed shake-hand player.

Is this suppose to be normal? I am doing something wrong.

Again, too hard to say by just words. Would be Much easier with your footage. But it does sound like you’re too off to the right. When the upper body is off to the right, the hip and lower back have to work hard to “hang” it.

Watch the good players play (those youtube slow-mos for example). Pay attention to (1) their left foot - they still can push its toes. (2) their butts. They swing to the left when they are on the right (and then reverse) to balance the body. If your butts are moving in the same direction as weight transfer, it’s not good. You’re off.

Find the point that your right foot would stand for each ball. Usually you’ve been taking the ball too far to the right.

Don’t worry. I got tons of that pain for a few months and thought this was my sacrifice for table tennis 😂

From your description, it sounds possible that you have an injury that may or may not be related to table tennis. The pain could be tightness from the muscles that cross your sciatic notch, it could be from nerve impingement as a result of some form of sacral disfunction or it could be disk issues in your lower back.

I am not saying those are the only things it could be from. But, those are 3 possibilities. There would be no way of knowing without a full assessment which included tests like x-rays and MRIs.

Try this:




And this: With this second one, fold forward enough to feel the stretch in the outer hip.



See what those feel like. If they feel really tight, you need to do this stretch a few times a day. Definitely after playing TT. Maybe an hour or two before playing TT. Maybe a couple of times in the middle of play.

UpSideDownCarl said:

From your description, it sounds possible that you have an injury that may or may not be related to table tennis. The pain could be tightness from the muscles that cross your sciatic notch, it could be from nerve impingement as a result of some form of sacral disfunction or it could be disk issues in your lower back.

I am not saying those are the only things it could be from. But, those are 3 possibilities. There would be no way of knowing without a full assessment which included tests like x-rays and MRIs.

Try this:

And this: With this second one, fold forward enough to feel the stretch in the outer hip.

See what those feel like. If they feel really tight, you need to do this stretch a few times a day. Definitely after playing TT. Maybe an hour or two before playing TT. Maybe a couple of times in the middle of play.

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Thank you very much friend Carl. I tried it just now and the stretching shown really hit the spot on the pain area. I can really feel the stretch at the sore area. It feels good after the stretch. Will try a few more days and tell you about the effect.

Gozo said:

It feels good after the stretch. Will try a few more days and tell you about the effect.

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You may like the frog pose. The "dose-ability" of the amount of stretch in it is good

Gozo said:

Thank you very much friend Carl. I tried it just now and the stretching shown really hit the spot on the pain area. I can really feel the stretch at the sore area. It feels good after the stretch. Will try a few more days and tell you about the effect.

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While you continue to do the stretch, try to make the stretch feel good, and be on the gentle side. Don't try and make the stretch very deep or intense. As you do the stretch consistently, it will help that area of your hip to release tension and open over time. If you stretch it too intensely, it will cause it to tighten back up instead. So keep it gentle.

I am not sure what Latej means by "Frog" pose. But if it is a pose where the knees go out to the side, that is the opposite of what you want to do because that will cause the muscles that are tight, to contract harder while you are doing it.

I chose a pose (stretch) that was specific to the area you described feeling pain. Not something random.

Latej, feel free to show specifically what you mean. But if it does not stretch the piriformis and the other external hip rotators that cross the sciatic notch, I doubt it will have much to do with helping with what Gozo has going on. I was not guessing or recommending a random stretch. There is a reason Gozo felt what I said to do, directly in the effected area.

@UpSideDownCarl,
What if a normal guy, who doesn’t have pain like that, does the same? Would that prevent potential injuries? I do have hip pains now and then so worrying a bit in the long run. Maybe I’m to worrying but that sitting position looks easy (tbh I do it by accident sometimes 😂 )

Tango K said:

@UpSideDownCarl,
What if a normal guy, who doesn’t have pain like that, does the same? Would that prevent potential injuries? I do have hip pains now and then so worrying a bit in the long run. Maybe I’m to worrying but that sitting position looks easy (tbh I do it by accident sometimes 😂 )

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Nothing bad will happen to someone who is not exhibiting pain in that specific area. That stretch is useful for anyone who stands, walks, sits in chairs, works at computers....in other words, it is useful for most humans. We use the outer hip muscles to help stabilize our spin in any version of upright balancing. If your knees are bent and you are trying to get low, you would use your outer hip muscles more. If your knees were wider while getting low, as in the stance for table tennis, that would make those outer hips work even more.

In general, the stretch Latej was mentioning would be useful for many. But if it is the one I think he meant, it would be specifically bad for what Gozo described as his symptoms. However, I really can't be sure what Latej meant without seeing a photo. So....

UpSideDownCarl said:

In general, the stretch Latej was mentioning would be useful for many. But if it is the one I think he meant, it would be specifically bad for what Gozo described as his symptoms. However, I really can't be sure what Latej meant without seeing a photo. So....

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I meant this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1gQlqpKRv8

Please clarify for Gozo when he can use that exercise.

Regarding myself, I used to do this exercise quite often when practising Taekwondo. I do believe it helps hip flexibility and in TT to have wide stance. However, I am not an expert like you, so if this doesn't help Gozo momentarily, please clarify for him.

latej said:

I meant this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1gQlqpKRv8

Please clarify for Gozo when he can use that exercise.

Regarding myself, I used to do this exercise quite often when practising Taekwondo. I do believe it helps hip flexibility and in TT to have wide stance. However, I am not an expert like you, so if this doesn't help Gozo momentarily, please clarify for him.

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So, here is the info. Gozo is complaining about pain in his outer hip. When you bring your thigh out like in that pose (laterally) it forces the muscles of the outer hip to TIGHTEN. If part of his issue is the muscles of the outer hip being too tight and tightening, which presses on the nerves that cross your sciatic notch, that pose specifically, could make what is going on for Gozo WORSE.

Yes. It could help someone without an issue in his outer hip be able to hold the squatting position used in a TT stance better. So, if that was the case, this would be useful.

The pose you are talking about stretches the inner thighs as your legs go out to the side. And as your legs go out to the side and the inner thighs (adductors) get lengthened, the muscles in the outer hip necessarily get shortened. Often, when there is a problem with those muscles in the outer hip, or the sciatic nerve crossing the sciatic notch, a movement like that can send those muscles in the outer hip (external hip rotators and abductors) to go into spasm causing referred pain (shooting pain) down the leg.

So, good stretch for something else. Definitely not something to recommend over the internet to someone having pain where Gozo described.

"Please clarify for Gozo when he can use that exercise."

So, I recommend to Gozo that until and unless his outer hip (back/side of butt) issues are no longer giving him problems, he not try that stretch.

It is worth noting that, at 11:27 in the video the woman in the video says: "So, remember, this is a really intense stretch." I am not so sure how that fits in with the title of the video "Frog Pose for Beginners."

I would also recommend anyone on this site, to be careful with your knees trying much of the stuff in that video. The leg position would need to be adapted for each person separately.

If you look at the angle of her thigh in this position, and then you look at the angle of her foot, THIS IS BAD FOR YOUR KNEES. And, interestingly, she says you need to do that to "protect" your knees. Her thigh is at about a 30-degree angle to the ground. Her foot is parallel to the ground.

If you had your knee bent and pointing forward and turned your foot out that much while your knee continued to point forward, most of the twisting would come from your ankle. But some of it would come from twisting of your tibia in your knee joint. For someone very flexible like the person in the video, she might be able to get away with that for years. But for a normal person, that can cause tearing of the menisci (horseshoe shaped cartilage in your knee joint).

At some point in the video she recommends this foot position if you feel stress in your knees:



This foot position is exponentially safer for your knees. But she presents this as, some day you will be able to do the other position.

When her hips are flat on the ground so her legs are straight out and her foot and her knee are tracking in line with each other, the other foot position is fine. But how many people are going to get their hips all the way down? A very small percentage of the human population.

In this photo, her hips are far enough down that her thighs, knees and feet are tracking close enough to in line with each other that this is FINE for HER KNEES.

Once your hips are higher up and further away from the ground, trying to have your feet point straight out is dangerous and unadvisable.

So, be careful with stuff like this.

But you can also see how, in this photo, the muscles Gozo was complaining about having pain, and along that crease from her thigh to her butt, that those muscles are being shortened right in the area Gozo described and giving him pain.

So, this photo shows nicely, why, based on what Gozo complained of, this is not what he would want to be doing.

In fact, something while playing that may help what is going on for him to get better faster would be for him to play with his feet a little closer to each other than normal until this hip is not bothering him any more.

Tango K said:

@UpSideDownCarl,
What if a normal guy, who doesn’t have pain like that, does the same? Would that prevent potential injuries? I do have hip pains now and then so worrying a bit in the long run. Maybe I’m to worrying but that sitting position looks easy (tbh I do it by accident sometimes 😂 )

Click to expand...

BTW: the stretch Latej mentioned, as long as you do it in a way that your knees are safe, it could be useful for you as well. Most stretches are fine, if they are adjusted to the needs of the person. That means the stretch should feel good and be relaxed enough to feel good.

While stretching, often people make the mistake of making the stretch too intense. When a stretch is too intense, the muscles that are being pulled on contract against the stretch and then you risk damaging connective tissue like ligaments and tendons. If you make the stretch relaxed and only at an intensity where it feels good, over time, your nervous system will give your muscles the message that they are safe and then you can release deeper into the stretch as the nervous system stops preventing the muscles from lengthening.

When you stretch, you are dealing with your nervous system and how to get it to send the message to the muscles to relax much more than people usually realize. Someone who is as flexible as the woman in the Video Latej linked to, a lot of that flexibility is genetic and a lot of it likely comes from the fact that she has likely been doing movements and activities that require extreme ranges of movement since she is at least a teenager, perhaps even younger.

The reason there are contraindications for Gozo on the stretch that Latej is calling Frog pose is, it would aggravate the specific issue he seems to have. Am I sure of what the specific issue he has is? NO! But by getting him to try the stretch I asked him to try, and his answer to how it felt, I was doing a small aspect of what an assessment would entail. His answer indicated that the area stretched in that pose is tight, and stretching it relived a small amount of the issue.

A real assessment would be in person and require a lot more than just that.