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  1. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #41
    Which is faster, H3 Neo or Big Dipper?

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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Which is faster, H3 Neo or Big Dipper?

    Not tried Big Dipper, but from what I have read, it appears to be the H3 Neo.


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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    From my experience, most players and coaches do think that using the legs is important. There's a lot of talk about weight transfer. But there seems to be some confusion as to how it's done and over emphasis that one should "use" the wrist, forearm etc. Maybe it's just a language problem and I've been misinterpreting. Maybe they assume that because they are using their legs properly that the player they're trying to help is doing the same. Or in some cases, maybe they're not seeing it?

    Even when I knew what to do and saw myself on video, I still couldn't figure out many things until quite recently. It's possible, for example, to be rotating your waist without using your legs and you can still get good power and spin that way. But I think it's even more efficient to be using your dominant leg to push the ground to drive the rotation. It's a very subtle distinction. It's also not just pushing with the legs, on most shots you need to also fold your torso/bend at the hip (more so against heavy backspin).

    In this video I'm trying to push with my dominant leg, using mostly my quad and glute to push off and put my body into rotation:

    In this video I'm mostly rotating my waist and not pushing the ground:

    Unfortunately you can't see my feet much, maybe you can still see it? Since changing my focus to the technique in the first video (pushing with my dominant leg), my FH has become more stable and efficient. I've been making some more small adjustments since then.

    I think quite a few coaches coach the arm structure of the shots rather than how to get the arm moving efficiently by using the body. When a coach now tells me to "use more wrist" I instead think they mean to let my arm backswing in such a way that will get my wrist moving more on the forward swing. I used to think that I was supposed to consciously whip my wrist or when told to use more forearm to tense my forearm muscles.

    In the right context this advice can be helpful, but it can be difficult sometimes if you're inclined to take the advice literally like I often did.

    Brett Clarke helped me realize much of this and a lot of practice, shadow play and visualization helped my technique tremendously. I recommend checking his work out, he's truly a world class coach.
    It seems in the more recent video you are more relaxed, while getting the same power transmitted as before (if not more). I bet you feel this too, and that reinforces your relaxation :-)

    I am not really in a position to give you advice, so forgive the following :-) I think you could concentrate a bit more on your non-playing hand. I'm trying that too. It helps to properly rotate and go down before the forward movement starts, and also it is a good check-point when the forward movement starts - I mean to notice that the non-playing hand starts to move (not of itself, but because it is part (end actually) of the chain) *before* the playing hand starts to move. You know the secondary acceleration as mentioned on the forum some time ago.

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    #44
    You make me watch his video again. He’s got my problem yesterday 😂 The first day I tried was really good but yesterday was less as I overdid it. Richie, you gotta really go to the right foot in the end of the stroke. It’s a rotation. If you watch the video you sent that they show Ma Long rotation, you’ll see that he ends the swing like a mirror image of the start (from foot stand perspective) - the playing heel is lifted and the non-playing heel takes the weight. That will also make moving into the next position much easier since moving starts by the non-playing foot.

    The first day I tried it worked just that. (Partly honestly due to a better blocker as well). The easier you take it to make it right, the more power you make. You don’t have to push it hard.

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    Last edited by Tango K; 08-19-2021 at 12:19 PM.

  5. Gozo is offline
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    #45
    I just watched the two YT video posted by Richie. Between the two, my preference is the first one. Richie has a more pronounced whipping motion and he looks more mechanically stable and less jarring on his back. Richie, if you are still on this thread, I bet you felt more strained during second video, am I right?

    Also, the first video, the ball trajectory is more stable and natural vis-a-vis the second which looks more forced.




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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    It seems in the more recent video you are more relaxed, while getting the same power transmitted as before (if not more). I bet you feel this too, and that reinforces your relaxation :-)

    I am not really in a position to give you advice, so forgive the following :-) I think you could concentrate a bit more on your non-playing hand. I'm trying that too. It helps to properly rotate and go down before the forward movement starts, and also it is a good check-point when the forward movement starts - I mean to notice that the non-playing hand starts to move (not of itself, but because it is part (end actually) of the chain) *before* the playing hand starts to move. You know the secondary acceleration as mentioned on the forum some time ago.
    Thanks for your comment, always happy to hear your feedback! Yeah, you're right. And my non-playing hand has always been awkward, in my older videos I have it completely down by my side and it looked very awkward, I've been trying to fix it by raising it to keep the balance a bit better. But yes, the non-playing hand should move first on the forward swing.

    To make the difference between the videos clearer:
    In the second (older) one I wasn't aware or had forgotten that I should push with my dominant leg. If you stand up straight and rotate your waist back and forward that's what I was doing - but in a lower position.
    In the first (newest) video which was soon after my realization, I instead focused on pushing and engaging my quad and glute (of the left leg) to power the rotation. This was like 5 months ago now and I've been trying to make it more efficient and have experimented with the backswing, whether that shows up or not in a match I'm unsure. This method also feels a little bit like a jumping sensation, just a slight push is enough to get plenty of racket head speed like Tango said.

    Also agree with Tango, I should ideally on the forward swing have gone over more to my right foot so I can push off from that foot and start the swing again, I for some reason quite like keeping the weight on my left foot. It all feels a bit like mini jumping, but pushing might be a better word. I know Brett has talked a bit about jumping into the backswing and it makes sense with what TTnuri says, it's like a mini jump/push off from the non dominant foot to get yourself into the backswing and a push from the dominant leg to begin the forward rotation/swing.

    Apologies to Runawayatlarge for hijacking this topic!

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    I just watched the two YT video posted by Richie. Between the two, my preference is the first one. Richie has a more pronounced whipping motion and he looks more mechanically stable and less jarring on his back. Richie, if you are still on this thread, I bet you felt more strained during second video, am I right?

    Also, the first video, the ball trajectory is more stable and natural vis-a-vis the second which looks more forced.
    I was rotating like a madman to get more power in the second video and I'm seeing a physiotherapist as I did get some problems with my right hip from around this time lol, I can't remember it feeling strained but it wasn't good. So yes - you are correct!

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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by RunawayAtLarge

    Not tried Big Dipper, but from what I have read, it appears to be the H3 Neo.

    Yes. That's correct. Big Dipper is slower and softer, and gives you better control but still really good spin.


  9. Tango K is offline
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    #49
    The Korean video does explain it a little bit. Although most of it is in Korean untranslated so I’m not really sure. But basically you push a little bit with your non-playing toes. That guarantee you won’t be too off balance. (As you still can push your non playing toes, they are still “grounded”) I tried it out in shadow and at the table. It worked well. But it’s easier said than done. You gotta practise a lot to feel your toe and heel properly in a semi-automatic way. Again. These subtle isolated things need a lot of shadow practises. At the table we should just fit them in.

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    #50
    Also from your Richie’s “source”, I found a backhand break-down explanation as well. It’s crazy. I’ve been practising this order for a week but not in this details and systemics. Highly recommended! I have to say thanks twice. You are Der_Etche 2.0 for me.

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    #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Also from your Richie’s “source”, I found a backhand break-down explanation as well. It’s crazy. I’ve been practising this order for a week but not in this details and systemics. Highly recommended! I have to say thanks twice. You are Der_Etche 2.0 for me.

    I honestly feel like I'm just plagiarizing Brett Clarke's work so all the credit should go to him. I really recommend checking his stuff out. He has a video of me where he helped improve my FH against backspin.

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  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie

    I honestly feel like I'm just plagiarizing Brett Clarke's work so all the credit should go to him. I really recommend checking his stuff out. He has a video of me where he helped improve my FH against backspin.

    Brett is awesome. I agree that people should spend the time seeing the stuff he presents because it is great info.

    But, once you have understood it and can see it in someone else and help them with it, Richie, it is yours as well!

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  13. Takkyu_ga_suki is offline
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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    From my experience, most players and coaches do think that using the legs is important. There's a lot of talk about weight transfer. But there seems to be some confusion as to how it's done and over emphasis that one should "use" the wrist, forearm etc. Maybe it's just a language problem and I've been misinterpreting. Maybe they assume that because they are using their legs properly that the player they're trying to help is doing the same. Or in some cases, maybe they're not seeing it?

    Even when I knew what to do and saw myself on video, I still couldn't figure out many things until quite recently. It's possible, for example, to be rotating your waist without using your legs and you can still get good power and spin that way. But I think it's even more efficient to be using your dominant leg to push the ground to drive the rotation. It's a very subtle distinction. It's also not just pushing with the legs, on most shots you need to also fold your torso/bend at the hip (more so against heavy backspin).
    I think this video of Li Sun bolsters your main point above:

  14. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #54
    You guys are discussing one of the hottest debate in current table tennis training: Is it rotating waist or crotch at stroke?

    Rotating waist is the traditional training term. Rotating crotch is the new training term in the current training system. Chinese coaches at different levels have started adopting the term of rotating crotch and less using the term of rotating waist. Li Sun, a coach in CNT, is the most famous one saying "Rotating waist is wrong, you should rotating crotch". Other terms similar to 'rotating crotch' are 'Using your legs', 'Using quad and glute', 'Power from ground', all of them mean the same thing.

    But another Chinese researcher in table tennis Xu Xuan disagreed with Li Sun with his words of 'rotating crotch'. Xu Xuan was a pro Chinese table tennis player and coach, and also a professor in Mechanics. Xu Xuan said: Waist is always the key point to generate the force for stroke. Overuse of 'rotating crotch' or 'power from ground' may misled others, like stop rotating waist or the overuse of the legs, which make stokes less powerful and unstable.

    Although Xu Xuan disagree with Li Sun, it doesn't mean their stroke are different. Its more like their strokes are the same but they have different ideas of saying that. Li Sun is saying it in a practical way of a coach, but Xu Xuan is saying it in a theocratic way of a professor.

    Li Sun's way is simple and straightforward. You get the point then you get it. You may also be misled by his words in some cases.
    Xu Xuan's way is more accurate but not straightforward.

    Xu Xuan interprets the relationship between waist and legs like this: When rotating waist, waist generates reaction force to legs. In the past, players focused on waist and left the reaction force passively passing through legs onto the ground. That way weakens the power of rotating waist and also make the waist vulnerable to injury. Current players should proactively use their legs to support the rotation of waist, legs work against the reaction force from waist..

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  15. Takkyu_ga_suki is offline
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    #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
    Current players should proactively use their legs to support the rotation of waist, legs work against the reaction force from waist..
    So in plain English, what does that mean? Does it mean one starts with the leg and then the waist turns, or is it simultaneous, or does the waist (move first) lead the feet?
    Last edited by Takkyu_ga_suki; 08-26-2021 at 06:56 AM.

  16. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Takkyu_ga_suki
    So in plain English, what does that mean? Does it mean one starts with the leg and then the waist turns, or is it simultaneous, or does the waist (move first) lead the feet?

    It means: waist leading the feet is the outdated way. Turning waist, and at the same time legs support waist turning.

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  17. Tango K is offline
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    #57
    The point doesn’t seem to go cross 😂 To be honest I see how difficult it is when I watch my friends practise. (I have been the same but it’s hard to use oneself as an example.) There are 2 things in play (which are all explained mechanically in the korean videos)

    (1) The way you keep the body so that force is transferred up without being lost. I’ve seen tons of people rotating the lower body but the arm doesn’t move (that is, relatively to the body, the arm is moving backward during the stroke) and even more bend the wrist back or wobble it (holding bat too loose) just about when they touch the ball. I had serious problems like these in the past, still now but a little less.
    (2) The most important force is from the leg push. If you think it should support other parts, you’re not using it. You really have to feel the leg muscles just like when you practise leg press in the gym. (That’s why the hip has to be bent. It’s not that you are going to twist it, but that’s how you’re ready to push the leg - like a spring).

    Again, regarding (2), if you watch top players playing when they are in position, you would see their backs are usually straight all the time during the stroke. There is very little twisting up there.

    It depends on where you are technically then you focus on to fix things. Table tennis is a practical sport. It’s difficult to generalise things.
    Stuff in (1) is very difficult to see and is better fixed before (2). That’s why all kids learnt the form first and also why everyone should start slow.

    For example, Li Sun mentioned the proper way to fix the wrist wobbling problem (to strengthen it without being stiff) that most people ignore - use the fingers you put on the bat face.

  18. Tango K is offline
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    #58
    These are my 2 cents observations to notice if you’re using legs or not

    If you play with a lot of arm power (which you can feel by having a lot of shoulder/upper back tension afterward) you will have difficult times to catch spinny balls and move into positions. You’ll be stronger hitting a predictable straight no spin ball which is common in basic practise but rarely seen in the match.

    If you play with upper body (which you can feel by hip / lower back tension afterward) you can be spinny but you’ll feel your body a little heavy at times, difficult to move and very difficult to add extra power.

    You shouldn’t feel too much if you play by the legs. Since most human legs are stronger than we think. We use them to carry our heavy body all day long.

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    #59
    Btw. At pro levels, I guess the upper body (hence comes the core) becomes a little more important since they supercharge the ball even when the ball is so close to their body (which limits the leg). Fan Zengdong is a huge example. But that’s beyond me to understand.

  20. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #60
    I will add a bit from myself. After efin COVID I gave up on the tacky hard rubbers and ended up with Nittakusan G1. I am pretty sure that I do not have to put so much effort into balls after transitioning to G1 and I still got a similar feeling to tacky rubbers. Not the same, balls are not as good, not as deadly, but at least I can play a bit longer because I do not have to put so much effort anymore. Tacky rubbers are great, but definitely a double-edged sword. I think I am too fat and have a too weak a body right now to use them, so I gave up for a while :| I get more points now, which is nice at least.

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