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  1. RunawayAtLarge is offline
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    #1

    Getting back into TT properly with the DHS Neo Hurricane 3

    Hi peeps,

    So I have noticed a lot of posts about tacky and non-tacky rubbers. Whilst I have not been playing for a while, and I am only just getting back into the game, I thought I'd share my observations purely from a personal perspective. This is in no way intended to be like a definitive review as I am only just getting back into playing regularly, but like I said will just be my own personal reflection which I wanted to share.

    I am a CPen player with a Yinhe T11+ and black Friendship 729 Focus 3 Snipe as my main rubber (I pretty much never play RPB and so there's no need to go through what's on the back of my blade). I have been playing at least once a week for maybe the past month and a bit now, and yesterday was my first time breaking open the new black DHS Neo Hurricane 3.

    I really struggled to get into the rhythm of using the DHS at first, and was not able to play a ball at all, everything going into the net if I played with the same style as the Friendship rubber. After gradually getting used to the DHS, and being able to land more and more shots consistently, I noticed that I was using my knees more, noticeably shifting my weight into the shot too, which I never needed to do with the Friendship.

    As I woke up to post-exercise discomfort this morning, I noticed my shoulder and knees were feeling it the most. Knees, I expected, since I already felt during the session yesterday that I found I had to be a lot more bouncy on my knees, bending and springing up, as well as doing more weight transfer. Shoulder I didn't really expect, but I guess it showed me that actually I was using a lot more power from my shoulders rather than simply flicking of wrist and elbow which I was clearly doing with the Friendship.

    I'm not so much of a snob as to say one technique is right vs another being wrong, but certainly from my perspective, it certainly made me work a lot more to get my shots in. Whether this is right vs wrong technique is not something I'm going to comment on, but the DHS certainly made me feel less "lazy" whereas the Friendship allowed me to get shots in without really paying much attention to my swing or my balance / footwork.

    That's just my personal observation though. Would love to hear some of your thoughts too when you changed rubbers / went from non-tacky to tacky. To be honest, I feel a bit like a masochist now LOL.

    Many thanks!
    Howie

  2. Tango K is offline
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    #2
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    rethink about it what I wrote might do more harm than good so I’d better remove. Appologise 😅

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    Last edited by Tango K; 08-03-2021 at 12:57 AM.

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    #3
    I grew up with tacky rubber in China. I was trained with tacky rubber and still playing with tacky rubber. I've played with H3 for more than 10 years.

    In general tacky rubbers require more work from your body. The Chinese looping technique involves transferring force in the following order: thigh --> waist --> torso --> forearm.

    It's a very tiring style to play with especially if looping is a main component of your game.

    However, some newer tacky rubbers are easier to play with. You can try Dianchi D, 729 Battle2 and Tibhar K1. They aren't as dangerous as H3 but require less accurate technique to execute.

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  4. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #4
    That's right. If there is any problem with playing tacky rubber, it will always be not swinging hard enough. The correct technique helps with getting the same result with smaller swings and preventing injury.

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    #5
    Hi guys,

    Thanks for your thoughts. I had another play around yesterday with the Neo H3 and was so tempted just to go back to the 729 Focus 3 Snipe, but at the same time, also want to just work my ass off to get back to proper techniques again rather than being lazy and finding shortcuts.

    Looks like it'll be back to shadowplay training every evening for me to get used to the coordination between footwork, weight balance, hips, torso, shoulder, and arms again. I haven't done this since I played for my school team, which was a good few years ago! But hey, if my aim is to start playing more regularly and to get fitter again, then looks like I'll have to get cracking!

    See you guys on the other side of binging shadowplay training LOL.

    Although another annoying consideration I am thinking about is that if I do want to get back into TT properly and get coaching, should I even consider a tacky Chinese rubber, or go for a Euro style one which coaches in UK will be familiar with? I know these questions have been answered time and time again - it's just me brainstorming and thinking out loud... or thinking via typing. Not sure how these sayings get adapted for online forums etc.
    Last edited by RunawayAtLarge; 08-04-2021 at 12:05 PM.

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    #6
    Road Cycling, swimming, and jogging works amazing for me, push ups also.
    Something that helps alot is sleeping from 7 to 9 hours every day and a 30 minutes nap if that is posible.
    Learning how to eat and so many other things, like practice some meditation for example.
    If you get all that stuff in order, I bet that you wont find any problem with tacky rubbers, even unboosted ones.

    8)

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    Last edited by Carl05; 08-04-2021 at 11:33 PM.

  7. RunawayAtLarge is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl05
    Road Cycling, swimming, and jogging works amazing for me, push ups also.
    Something that helps alot is sleeping from 7 to 9 hours every day and a 30 minutes nap if that is posible.
    Learning how to eat and so many other things, like practice some meditation for example.
    If you get all that stuff in order, I bet that you wont find any problem with tacky rubbers, even unboosted ones.

    8)

    Hey Carlos, thanks for the good tips. My sleep pattern is all over the place at the moment. Plenty of things to work on - one small step at a time, right? Little by little.

    My other half is a personal trainer... and I'm probably one of the naughtiest people she's had to deal with in terms of diet etc. Will make an effort to behave myself from now on definitely since I really do want to get back into playing TT more regularly, and have a goal in mind now!


  8. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #8
    Tacky and non tacky are only personal choice. You need minor adjustment to switch to another one, but the whole structure is the same. Tacky rubber is good for training. If you don't have the correct technique, your drive/loop will be easily counterattacked, but it is not a problem for training. If you use non-tacky rubber for training, you need to bear in mind not relying on the rubber. You should DRIVE the ball back not BOUNCE the ball back.

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  9. Richie is offline
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    #9
    Right or wrong technique is kind of the wrong terminology like you say, which Carl on the forum has made a good point on.

    You need to adapt the technique to your body. However, if we look at the players at the top level, they all have very efficient technique and are doing very similar things with their body. You can look at any video of pros looping forehand against block, for example, and they are all pushing with their dominant leg which puts their hips/torso into a spin which propels the arm into the ball.

    This is not a "chinese" looping technique. Every single one of them do it, though there are variations are in their arm structure and how they tend to backswing which I don't think has anything to do with technique. Harder/tacky rubber puts more pressure on you to get a faster arm swing and the only way to do that is to use the legs to set the rest of the body in motion. Some people do that intuitively, others don't.

    Your knees will be shifting, but the "transfer of weight" isn't what makes your arm swing faster, it should come from a hard push from your dominant leg into the ground, then the rest happens by itself if you made the appropriate backswing.

    The benefit of using the body is more stability and more options for your shots (more power and more spin), but it puts pressure on you to move better and to be fitter so you can execute the technique in the first place.

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  10. RunawayAtLarge is offline
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    #10
    So after reading all your comments, and decided to slow down the pace and go back to basics in terms of bodily coordination and thinking about my shots instead of the laziness with which I could play with my 729 Focus 3 Snipe, I have actually managed to up my consistency with the Neo H3. I don't even know what boosting is about at the moment, so let's not go there - I'm getting back into playing after a good many years away, let's do things one step at a time LOL.

    But I really wanted to thank you peeps for taking the time to give me bits and pieces of advice! It's really helpful. Plus it certainly feels more of a workout every time I have a knockabout now, which is probably a good thing considering my main aim is to be more active and exercise again.

    Thank you to everyone so far!

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  11. IB66 is offline
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    #11
    There’s loads of H3 versions and sponge types and hardnesses!, 37 thru to 41 degree sponge hardnesses, H3, H3Neo, H3/50, H3/60 etc !! Skyline 2 or 3, is also another alternative as well as H8 hard, mid,
    H8-80 is also one of the new versions of H8, 37 and 38 degree sponge hardness, has a bit more bounce to it, I’ve been trying the H8-80 37 degree on BH and 38 degree on FH and like it a lot, Tau 2 (A Xiom rubber) is very similar indeed and also plays very well.
    The main issue with H8-80 and Tau 2 is that they are only available (at present) in the Far East !!! I bought mine via AliExpress, Hi-Sport store. Check the ‘star’ rating for a given store, 5star ideally!!!

    So there are some other DHS rubbers that are worth looking into, the ‘Neo’ versions are meant to be slightly less ‘dead’ feeling than the std H3, H8-80 for me, has more bounce than H3neo and could be slightly easier to play with, as far as ‘effort’ is concerned, But not by a lot!!!
    Softer sponge versions 37/38 degree will obviously feel slightly softer and therefore should play a little easier!!

    Boosting softens up the sponge and also makes it expand slightly, makes the harder sponge versions feel much nicer, maybe adds some speed. Effect lasts varying durations. Personally boosting is not for me, more from an aggro point of view have to go through the boosting process every 4 to 12 weeks!!!

    Really it’s personal choice!!

    I would say that a 37 degree sponge hardness version of any of the DHS rubbers is advisable for BH, but there is also nothing to stop that version being used on the FH side as well.

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  12. RunawayAtLarge is offline
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    #12
    I had a relatively good practice session today for just a bit over an hour, but boy I'm so tired. Either the Neo H3 is really making me work for those forehand top spins, or I'm just really unfit LOL. Probably more the latter.

    I have found that my style of play has completely changed. When I was playing with the 729 Focus 3 Snipe, I was quite happy smashing as many shots as I could and getting them in, but with the Neo H3 I find I'm more at home playing right up close and doing short placement shots. I know people say it's great for looping, but I wonder if it's more to do with the fact that I'm still trying to get used to it and therefore I'm not confident enough to do many loop shots - I'm starting to get more and more shots in, but still too many are netting or being over compensated and dipping way too late and going long for me to feel I want to stick to this.

    I'm pretty happy with my backhand consistency though - I'm a traditional penholder backhand, so using the Neo H3 for both FH and BH. When I played for my school team, our coach made me drill mainly on my backhand pushes and drives due to the fact that I was a traditional cpen player - certainly seemed to have work LOL. But it does mean I much favour my BH and don't actually like using my FH as much.

    I think I'll stay unboosted for a while still. Will try and stick with the Neo H3 for a bit more, but if I find I'm still not quite happy with my FH, then I may switch to another rubber. Get ready with your suggestions, people. Hahaha.

    Part of me also wonders whether the blade I have it mounted on is maybe not quite suitable for my way of playing with the Neo H3, or maybe it's just too hard a blade when combined with the relatively hard Neo H3 - the 729 Focus 3 Snipe was definitely a much softer experience. Maybe I need to change my blade to something a bit slower / less stiff also?
    Last edited by RunawayAtLarge; 08-08-2021 at 11:33 PM.

  13. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #13
    Don't be upset. You don't have to use hard tacky Chinese rubber. The rubber itself doesn't make you better, many good players are using non tacky rubber. We are not pro players, we just want to be happy.

    Hard rubber goes better with flexible blade. It recommends 5 ply or 7 ply pure wood to beginner, so does to someone wanting to be back after many years, for instance, Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive for Cpen. But also, you don't have to.

    I really don't want to see you spend too much time on the choice on tacky or non tacky rubber.

    My friend highly recommend Butterfly Yoshida Kaii paired with Butterfly Bryce or Tenergy for traditional Cpen one-side looping. I am not good at equipment, but I think this may be one of your options. When you find something really good for you, no matter stiff or flexible blade, tacky or non tacky, you don't need to waste your time and money.

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    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 08-09-2021 at 03:53 AM.

  14. bzing is offline
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  15. RunawayAtLarge is offline
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
    Don't be upset. You don't have to use hard tacky Chinese rubber. The rubber itself doesn't make you better, many good players are using non tacky rubber. We are not pro players, we just want to be happy.

    Hard rubber goes better with flexible blade. It recommends 5 ply or 7 ply pure wood to beginner, so does to someone wanting to be back after many years, for instance, Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive for Cpen. But also, you don't have to.

    I really don't want to see you spend too much time on the choice on tacky or non tacky rubber.

    My friend highly recommend Butterfly Yoshida Kaii paired with Butterfly Bryce or Tenergy for traditional Cpen one-side looping. I am not good at equipment, but I think this may be one of your options. When you find something really good for you, no matter stiff or flexible blade, tacky or non tacky, you don't need to waste your time and money.

    Hey Lycanthrope, thank you for your wise words. I don't think I'm particularly upset, just more wanting to nail this so I don't actually have to go out and buy another rubber / reglue. I hate that whole process and don't want to do it more than necessary - partly why I'm also avoiding the whole boosting game LOL. The Neo H3 was actually recommended to me by the table tennis shop as the 729 Focus 3 Snipe on my bat is pretty old already, and since I was looking to rerubber, they suggested I try out the Neo H3.

    Plus not to mention since I forgot to varnish this blade, if I take off the Neo H3, it might splinter the blade and I'll have to choose a new one anyway. Will have a look at what you suggested with regard to the Yasaka (and the rubbers you mentioned) that you suggested in any event. I had a quick look for it and it doesn't seem like an expensive blade, so may get it and then decide what rubber to get on it.

    Thank you as always though! =)


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    #16
    If you really want to have a go with tacky rubber, you sorta ought to stick with it for a while and think hard about your techniques. It tends to reveal all technical problems which bouncy rubbers conceal. (You certainly don’t need much more power for the basic shots. You gotta get used to it and try to be more efficient.) If you don’t want to boost, try alternatives that IB66 suggests.

    Otherwise, if you come to it just to save money, or to hope that it’ll give you some new feels. Then steer away from it. You’ll always be disappointed. And the disappointment will make you give up.

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  17. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RunawayAtLarge

    Hey Lycanthrope, thank you for your wise words. I don't think I'm particularly upset, just more wanting to nail this so I don't actually have to go out and buy another rubber / reglue. I hate that whole process and don't want to do it more than necessary - partly why I'm also avoiding the whole boosting game LOL. The Neo H3 was actually recommended to me by the table tennis shop as the 729 Focus 3 Snipe on my bat is pretty old already, and since I was looking to rerubber, they suggested I try out the Neo H3.

    Plus not to mention since I forgot to varnish this blade, if I take off the Neo H3, it might splinter the blade and I'll have to choose a new one anyway. Will have a look at what you suggested with regard to the Yasaka (and the rubbers you mentioned) that you suggested in any event. I had a quick look for it and it doesn't seem like an expensive blade, so may get it and then decide what rubber to get on it.

    Thank you as always though! =)

    My pleasure.

    Choice for traditional CPen is always difficult. You have to find out a perfect balance between FH loop (flexible blade and soft rubber) and BH push (stiff blade and hard rubber). Wish you get through this process soon and get the right feeling on FH loop.

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    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 08-10-2021 at 02:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    My pleasure.

    Choice for traditional CPen is always difficult. You have to find out a perfect balance between FH loop (flexible blade and soft rubber) and BH push (stiff blade and hard rubber). Wish you get through this process soon and get the right feeling on FH loop.

    So I am happy to report I think I have found a combination which I'm happy getting back into the game with, at least for the moment. Consistency has gone up dramatically compared to the Yinhe T11+ and Neo Hurricane 3 set up. I had a look at a few options including the Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive you mentioned. I boiled it down to the Yasaka, a Stiga Offensive Wood NCT, and the Hurricane 301.

    I chose the Stiga Offensive Wood NCT since it was more flexible than the Yasaka, and I wasn't too sure about the 301 as I saw some reviews mention that the carbon layer was engaged when you start going for it, which is what I didn't want. Also, if the Stiga was good enough for Xu Xin earlier in his career, it sure as hell is going to be good enough for me lol. Am happy with my looping as the ball dips so much after clearing the net - happy happy happy days! =)

    Paired it up with a Hurricane 3-50 Soft on FH, and DHS G888 on the BH - managed a few good RPB loops earlier today with the G888, although I still favour my traditional penhold backhand - just a case of being a lot more practised with it.

    So once again @Lycanthrope, thanks a lot of your suggestions. It certainly made me think about my options and combinations a lot more carefully, and things seem to be going in the right direction now! =)


  19. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    Right or wrong technique is kind of the wrong terminology like you say, which Carl on the forum has made a good point on.

    You need to adapt the technique to your body. However, if we look at the players at the top level, they all have very efficient technique and are doing very similar things with their body. You can look at any video of pros looping forehand against block, for example, and they are all pushing with their dominant leg which puts their hips/torso into a spin which propels the arm into the ball.

    This is not a "chinese" looping technique. Every single one of them do it, though there are variations are in their arm structure and how they tend to backswing which I don't think has anything to do with technique. Harder/tacky rubber puts more pressure on you to get a faster arm swing and the only way to do that is to use the legs to set the rest of the body in motion. Some people do that intuitively, others don't.

    Your knees will be shifting, but the "transfer of weight" isn't what makes your arm swing faster, it should come from a hard push from your dominant leg into the ground, then the rest happens by itself if you made the appropriate backswing.

    The benefit of using the body is more stability and more options for your shots (more power and more spin), but it puts pressure on you to move better and to be fitter so you can execute the technique in the first place.
    This is an excellent post. More people should be pounding the like button on this one.

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  20. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RunawayAtLarge

    So I am happy to report I think I have found a combination which I'm happy getting back into the game with, at least for the moment. Consistency has gone up dramatically compared to the Yinhe T11+ and Neo Hurricane 3 set up. I had a look at a few options including the Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive you mentioned. I boiled it down to the Yasaka, a Stiga Offensive Wood NCT, and the Hurricane 301.

    I chose the Stiga Offensive Wood NCT since it was more flexible than the Yasaka, and I wasn't too sure about the 301 as I saw some reviews mention that the carbon layer was engaged when you start going for it, which is what I didn't want. Also, if the Stiga was good enough for Xu Xin earlier in his career, it sure as hell is going to be good enough for me lol. Am happy with my looping as the ball dips so much after clearing the net - happy happy happy days! =)

    Paired it up with a Hurricane 3-50 Soft on FH, and DHS G888 on the BH - managed a few good RPB loops earlier today with the G888, although I still favour my traditional penhold backhand - just a case of being a lot more practised with it.

    So once again @Lycanthrope, thanks a lot of your suggestions. It certainly made me think about my options and combinations a lot more carefully, and things seem to be going in the right direction now! =)

    I am glad to hear you enjoying the new blade. I believe jumping from T11+ to looping machine Stiga Offensive will bring in so much fun in looping. A great tool to improve techniques.


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