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  1. Gozo is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by t.t.s.t.a.r
    Interesting topic, as a New Zealander I really don't know how the USATT system works, could someone explain?

    Psst! It is a US thingy. Hear hear! I too have no idea.

    However, I am not sure what MOG aka thread starter's intention was? I mean if he really wants to find out, could not he just look up USTTA website and look for his own name to find it out. Or perhaps he wants us, the forumers to guess his rating based on the video? I don't know...


  2. Der_Echte is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by t.t.s.t.a.r
    Interesting topic, as a New Zealander I really don't know how the USATT system works, could someone explain?

    You pay a LOT of money for a tourney and tourneys and every year, yearly membership in USATT... all those funds go 50% to administrative overhead and 40% to elite program and MAYBE 10% to you, the amateur player so that you play matches and get assigned a numerical rating based loosely on the ELO chess rating system so that you can see your rating and either brag about it or cry about it... then you fail to cough over the big money for your yearly membership, the USATT will prevent you or anyone from seeing ur rating until you fork over the dough.

    That is how it works in one concise paragraph.

    Other kind cynical folk please step in and confirm or initiate a cancel Der_Echte hashtag movement.

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  3. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by t.t.s.t.a.r
    Interesting topic, as a New Zealander I really don't know how the USATT system works, could someone explain?

    What I have heard is that Rating Central is using the similar way with USATT system to do the calculation. The level below rating 1200 will be quite similar in the two system. When it comes to rating 2000, the difference between two systems will be around 200, like players with rating 1900 in Rating Central may be able to be rated to 2100 in USATT. The gap will be bigger in higher levels.

    See here for the interview to David Marcus, the guy who is running Rating Central, about his story with USATT.
    https://www.noettv.org/de/news/newss...he-ittf-system

    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 09-03-2021 at 06:31 AM.

  4. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo

    Psst! It is a US thingy. Hear hear! I too have no idea.

    However, I am not sure what MOG aka thread starter's intention was? I mean if he really wants to find out, could not he just look up USTTA website and look for his own name to find it out. Or perhaps he wants us, the forumers to guess his rating based on the video? I don't know...

    It seems USATT now charge individuals for checking their rating. I have seen so many complains in other forums.

    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 09-03-2021 at 06:32 AM.

  5. KM1976 is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    MOG has put up full game or full match vids before...

    In those vids, MOG sometimes plays brain dead, and will look and perform lower level than his normal level, if such a thing existed. That sounds bad, but USATT 2000 level players can also get brain dead and lose to players several levels below them too, so take it with a few kg of salt.

    I suspect MOG would be 1500 here in Kaliforjia where I play - that is a couple levels above both the average and more importantly, the mean. He could maintain that level here if this place doesn't sink into the ocean after the next earthquake... but what the heck, the whole state is on track to burn down before that happens.

    Der_Echte,
    This is a very good point. Do you think you can talk more about how not to play 'brain dead'? I think if we all are aware of the point and tactics it surely would make us more contented our performance as we would know that we did what we can and also might stop blaming our rackets for our lack of performance.

    Thank you, KM1976

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  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #26
    I think the important part is, to get a rating, you have to play in a USATT sanctioned tournament. To have the rating actually reflect your level of play, you have to play in enough tournaments to have won and lost enough for the rating to be fairly accurate.

    If you are rated 1800 and lose to someone with a rating of 1850, you will lose something like 6 points. I can't remember the exact number. If you lose to someone 1950, you may lose 2 points. If you lose to someone 2050 you won't lose any. If you lose to someone 1600 you will lose a lot more points. If you lose to someone 1400 you will lose even more points. I cannot remember the maximum number of points you can lose.

    If you are 1800 and you beat someone 2200, and you don't lose to anyone lower than 2100, they will readjust your level up to about the level of the lowest level player you lost to.

    So, if your rating was 1800 but the level was too high and you played and lost to every player lower than 1500 in a tournament, from the massive number of points you would lose, you would end up dropping to around that level.

    Based on how you win or lose points, the idea is, if you play enough tournaments, and you are trying to play in brackets that you think reflect your level, over time, you end up with a rating that is close enough to accurate. Why do I say "close enough to accurate"? Because your level will change with time and the change won't just be linear. It will go up and down. And also, because, there will be certain kinds of players you play against that you do well against. And other kinds of players that you play against that you won't do well against.

    Like, MOG plays with Mid Length Pips. A lot of players at the 1500 level play really poorly against those kinds of pips because they give balls that are not expected at 1500 level. at 1700+ players have much more experience playing against players with tricky rubbers. So, that advantage starts to disappear and then the pips player has to demonstrate more skill with those pips. The pips are still tricky, but the players you play against as the levels get higher, have more experience against different kinds of players.

    I am given to understand that, if you have played fewer than 30 tournaments, it is not so likely your rating will actually reflect your level. The more tournaments you play, the more accurately your rating will reflect your level.

    I think this is why Der_Echte is talking about how much money you have to give to USATT to get a rating that reflects your level.

    By the way, in the videos I posted to show it is hard to determine someone's level from just looking at Video, in the video with Richard and Philippe, at the time Richard was approximately 2350 and Philippe was 2300. At the time of the video of Richard and Marcus, Richard was about 2250 and Marcus was about 2175. So, those three are exponentially better than anyone at a 2000 level. Richard's highest level was 2450. Philippe's highest level was about 2350-2400. They don't look great. But they are amazing players. If you know what to look for, you may be able to tell.

    To me, the rally in the video that shows Tony Ma going from low level to over 2000, that starts at 1:44 in the video looks about like the rally MOG shows. Similar level of spin. The FHs in Tony Ma's video may have more power. But the BHs are not as solid. In that rally, it states that the tournament bracket is U1550 and his rating is 1285. The rally goes on for over 20 seconds. It may be worth watching.

    MOG is probably a little higher level than that. I think Der may be close enough to accurate. But my point is, you really can't tell from looking. You have to play the matches to earn a rating. MOG plays in UK. He would have to go to the US and play in a bunch of tournaments to actually find out his rating.

    But I think MOG's actual purpose in this thread, because he has posted an identical thread to this in the past, is to say: "look how well I am playing." And he is playing well.
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by KM1976

    Der_Echte,
    This is a very good point. Do you think you can talk more about how not to play 'brain dead'? I think if we all are aware of the point and tactics it surely would make us more contented our performance as we would know that we did what we can and also might stop blaming our rackets for our lack of performance.

    Thank you, KM1976

    One easy thing that helps play brain dead less often is simply to play slower. Like much slower. In club play most people have limited time and want to get in as many matches as they can, which is understandable. And other people are often waiting for the table, so no one wants to be rude. But if you just get the ball and serve, get the ball and serve, with one second between points, there is no time to think about what is happening. Also towel breaks and timeouts are chances to think about play patterns and tactics, but almost never used.

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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    the videos I posted to show it is hard to determine someone's level from just looking at Video,

    ...

    But I think MOG's actual purpose in this thread, because he has posted an identical thread to this in the past, is to say: "look how well I am playing." And he is playing well.

    It's even hard to tell someone's level from playing them one time, much less from a video. Nobody has a stable level, we all play in a range depending on how we feel that day, motivation, good or bad style matchups, and a bunch of other factors. That's how so many times you get three-way ties where A beat B, B beat C, C beat A. Who is the higher level?

    ...

    MOG really only said "Look how well I played this one point." Which is cool. Highlight videos are fun. But we don't even know if he won that game.

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  9. Der_Echte is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by KM1976

    Der_Echte,
    This is a very good point. Do you think you can talk more about how not to play 'brain dead'? I think if we all are aware of the point and tactics it surely would make us more contented our performance as we would know that we did what we can and also might stop blaming our rackets for our lack of performance.

    Thank you, KM1976

    Hi KM1976-eating-Philly-Steak-Sandwiches,

    How to NOT play brain dead? An age old question.

    I would say one effective way to raise ones awareness to better understand what happens, so as to manage it is prudent.

    Brain dead outcomes have several contributing factors

    - Player does not realize what is contributing to winning and losing points
    - Player does not see why they are making error after error
    - Player does not assess risk very well
    - Player way overcommitted to using the same peceived strengths and shot selection, even when it fails over and over
    - Player does not discover whot responses provide higher percentage attacking chances or opportunities to control the point

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  10. MOG is offline
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I think the important part is, to get a rating, you have to play in a USATT sanctioned tournament. To have the rating actually reflect your level of play, you have to play in enough tournaments to have won and lost enough for the rating to be fairly accurate.

    If you are rated 1800 and lose to someone with a rating of 1850, you will lose something like 6 points. I can't remember the exact number. If you lose to someone 1950, you may lose 2 points. If you lose to someone 2050 you won't lose any. If you lose to someone 1600 you will lose a lot more points. If you lose to someone 1400 you will lose even more points. I cannot remember the maximum number of points you can lose.

    If you are 1800 and you beat someone 2200, and you don't lose to anyone lower than 2100, they will readjust your level up to about the level of the lowest level player you lost to.

    So, if your rating was 1800 but the level was too high and you played and lost to every player lower than 1500 in a tournament, from the massive number of points you would lose, you would end up dropping to around that level.

    Based on how you win or lose points, the idea is, if you play enough tournaments, and you are trying to play in brackets that you think reflect your level, over time, you end up with a rating that is close enough to accurate. Why do I say "close enough to accurate"? Because your level will change with time and the change won't just be linear. It will go up and down. And also, because, there will be certain kinds of players you play against that you do well against. And other kinds of players that you play against that you won't do well against.

    Like, MOG plays with Mid Length Pips. A lot of players at the 1500 level play really poorly against those kinds of pips because they give balls that are not expected at 1500 level. at 1700+ players have much more experience playing against players with tricky rubbers. So, that advantage starts to disappear and then the pips player has to demonstrate more skill with those pips. The pips are still tricky, but the players you play against as the levels get higher, have more experience against different kinds of players.

    I am given to understand that, if you have played fewer than 30 tournaments, it is not so likely your rating will actually reflect your level. The more tournaments you play, the more accurately your rating will reflect your level.

    I think this is why Der_Echte is talking about how much money you have to give to USATT to get a rating that reflects your level.

    By the way, in the videos I posted to show it is hard to determine someone's level from just looking at Video, in the video with Richard and Philippe, at the time Richard was approximately 2350 and Philippe was 2300. At the time of the video of Richard and Marcus, Richard was about 2250 and Marcus was about 2175. So, those three are exponentially better than anyone at a 2000 level. Richard's highest level was 2450. Philippe's highest level was about 2350-2400. They don't look great. But they are amazing players. If you know what to look for, you may be able to tell.

    To me, the rally in the video that shows Tony Ma going from low level to over 2000, that starts at 1:44 in the video looks about like the rally MOG shows. Similar level of spin. The FHs in Tony Ma's video may have more power. But the BHs are not as solid. In that rally, it states that the tournament bracket is U1550 and his rating is 1285. The rally goes on for over 20 seconds. It may be worth watching.

    MOG is probably a little higher level than that. I think Der may be close enough to accurate. But my point is, you really can't tell from looking. You have to play the matches to earn a rating. MOG plays in UK. He would have to go to the US and play in a bunch of tournaments to actually find out his rating.

    But I think MOG's actual purpose in this thread, because he has posted an identical thread to this in the past, is to say: "look how well I am playing." And he is playing well.

    I am an open book! Ha ha

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    It's even hard to tell someone's level from playing them one time, much less from a video. Nobody has a stable level, we all play in a range depending on how we feel that day, motivation, good or bad style matchups, and a bunch of other factors. That's how so many times you get three-way ties where A beat B, B beat C, C beat A. Who is the higher level?

    ...

    MOG really only said "Look how well I played this one point." Which is cool. Highlight videos are fun. But we don't even know if he won that game.

    I lost 3-0, close though all 8s and 9s.


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    #32
    What is more interesting is that I have switched from the fast Fextra to the slightly slower more controlled Ma Lin Carbon and I am actually playing a lot better and more consistent than I ever have before. I am going to post some video after a tournament next week to show you all.

    Now I said that I will probably play terribly.

    😀
    Last edited by MOG; 09-03-2021 at 04:47 PM.

  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    One easy thing that helps play brain dead less often is simply to play slower. Like much slower. In club play most people have limited time and want to get in as many matches as they can, which is understandable. And other people are often waiting for the table, so no one wants to be rude. But if you just get the ball and serve, get the ball and serve, with one second between points, there is no time to think about what is happening. Also towel breaks and timeouts are chances to think about play patterns and tactics, but almost never used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    It's even hard to tell someone's level from playing them one time, much less from a video. Nobody has a stable level, we all play in a range depending on how we feel that day, motivation, good or bad style matchups, and a bunch of other factors. That's how so many times you get three-way ties where A beat B, B beat C, C beat A. Who is the higher level?

    ...

    MOG really only said "Look how well I played this one point." Which is cool. Highlight videos are fun. But we don't even know if he won that game.

    These are two excellent posts. They are worth reading a few times.

    And you guys should be hitting the like button on both of them!


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  14. Der_Echte is offline
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MOG
    ... I am going to post some video after a tournament next week to show you all.

    Now I said that I will probably play terribly, the losses driving me to drink and go directly to the beers skipping the chickens, maybe just bring the pints courtside and offer beer handicap terms to opponents...

    😀
    OK, you know I made up the chicken and beer stuff, it has my fingerprints all over it.

    I do not think you will play so terrible. You may even play way better than you ever did and still lose vs some players. One simply needs to know what to look for and take away from a tourney performance.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 09-05-2021 at 04:53 PM.
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  15. chuckjordan2 is offline
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    #35
    MOG,

    Why not plan for a US tournament in the future (after this mess goes away)? You'll have time to practice at your club, and, resolve your curiosity.

    Tournaments on the East Coast are a 6 hour flight away from the UK.

  16. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjordan2
    MOG,

    Why not plan for a US tournament in the future (after this mess goes away)? You'll have time to practice at your club, and, resolve your curiosity.

    Tournaments on the East Coast are a 6 hour flight away from the UK.
    May even cost less than all those blades and rubbers MOG has tried in all that time when he wasn't "really" being an EJ; just trying to find the perfect setup that will make him play at a higher level.

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    #37
    I would love to come to USA to play some tournaments, maybe one day. That is a great idea, maybe a road trip from east to west coast!

  18. Der_Echte is offline
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    #38
    MOG,

    You would stop at the worng place, innocently utter a completely true statement like "The Dallas Cowboys can't find the endzone from their arse", get promptly depossessed of your auto, then that will be the end of ur road trip.

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    MOG,

    You would stop at the worng place, innocently utter a completely true statement like "The Dallas Cowboys can't find the endzone from their arse", get promptly depossessed of your auto, then that will be the end of ur road trip.

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  20. chuckjordan2 is offline
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MOG
    I would love to come to USA to play some tournaments, maybe one day. That is a great idea, maybe a road trip from east to west coast!

    MOG, do you know how big the US is? The drive alone (with no table tennis) is 3 days (4 days is more realistic). If you played selectivly along the way, it could be 6-9 weeks (assuming most TT clubs are more active on the weekend. Getting in a couple tournaments along the way. I'm in Richmond Virginia, stop on by my club on a Saturday afternoon!

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