Back to Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27
  1. alextudor26 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 0 11
    A
    alextudor26 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 11 0

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    Romania
    11
    0
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #1

    Less spin with hard sponge?

    Hi guys. Yesterday i got my first "pro" blade done let s say, and it is made with stiga infinity vps v, with rakza x on fh and tibhar mxp on bh (45-47 hardness version) both in max thickness. I was playing before with some bad wood blade with cheap chinesse sticky rubbers which i found out they where 47 degrees hardness, 2.0 or max on fh and something thinner on bh. I liked my spinny serves with the one that i had before, today when i first tested this one i don't know if it is because first try or what but i couldn t get any spin at all in serves or game because of the little dwell time. On atacks it works brilliant, so much speed when i hit the ball. Before i was using all my body to get topspin atack and brush the ball now i just hit the ball and has a lot of speed. My question is, how to get more spin? Is it because i m not used to it and should i just practice more and also the sponge gets softer while playing more and get used more to the blade? Or it s a lost cause and i can t get more spin with this because the sponge is hard and rubber is not tacky? I will be patient, i m not the one who gives up but a question that i should have put soft rubbers just pops in my mind.. (changing the rubbers is not an option) i guess i m expecting a technical advice? Don t know, but i m waiting for your thoughts on this

  2. pingpongpaddy is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 144 201
    P
    pingpongpaddy is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 201 144

    User Info Menu


    Jul 2019
    Ireland
    201
    144
    587
    Read 0 Reviews
    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by alextudor26
    Hi guys. Yesterday i got my first "pro" blade done let s say, and it is made with stiga infinity vps v, with rakza x on fh and tibhar mxp on bh (45-47 hardness version) both in max thickness. I was playing before with some bad wood blade with cheap chinesse sticky rubbers which i found out they where 47 degrees hardness, 2.0 or max on fh and something thinner on bh. I liked my spinny serves with the one that i had before, today when i first tested this one i don't know if it is because first try or what but i couldn t get any spin at all in serves or game because of the little dwell time. On atacks it works brilliant, so much speed when i hit the ball. Before i was using all my body to get topspin atack and brush the ball now i just hit the ball and has a lot of speed. My question is, how to get more spin? Is it because i m not used to it and should i just practice more and also the sponge gets softer while playing more and get used more to the blade? Or it s a lost cause and i can t get more spin with this because the sponge is hard and rubber is not tacky? I will be patient, i m not the one who gives up but a question that i should have put soft rubbers just pops in my mind.. (changing the rubbers is not an option) i guess i m expecting a technical advice? Don t know, but i m waiting for your thoughts on this

    hi alex
    its normal to have this kind of timing problem.
    The cure is half a dozen good practice session topspin vs block.
    personally I have always preferred the harder setup but it benefits from regular practice also make sure contact early or peak bounce, Late timing does not optimise yr setup

    good luck

    ppp

    bh
    spinpips chop2
    yinhe ayous wood 1 ply
    fh
    max moristo sp

  3. langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,054 2,218
    L
    langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,218 1,054
    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by alextudor26
    Before i was using all my body to get topspin atack and brush the ball now i just hit the ball and has a lot of speed.

    Just continue to brush the ball.


  4. Lula is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,382 1,662
    L
    Lula is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,662 1,382

    User Info Menu


    Oct 2016
    Sweden
    1,662
    1,382
    4440
    Read 0 Reviews
    #4
    Spin is about closing racket angle, brush the ball fast and thin with forearm and wrist. Power more from the body.

  5. Gozo is offline
    says May the Spin be with you!
     
    Established TTD Member 99 188
    Gozo's Avatar
    Gozo is offline
    says May the Spin be with you!
     
    Established TTD Member 188 99
    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by alextudor26
    Hi guys. Yesterday i got my first "pro" blade done let s say, and it is made with stiga infinity vps v, with rakza x on fh and tibhar mxp on bh (45-47 hardness version) both in max thickness. I was playing before with some bad wood blade with cheap chinesse sticky rubbers which i found out they where 47 degrees hardness, 2.0 or max on fh and something thinner on bh. I liked my spinny serves with the one that i had before, today when i first tested this one i don't know if it is because first try or what but i couldn t get any spin at all in serves or game because of the little dwell time. On atacks it works brilliant, so much speed when i hit the ball. Before i was using all my body to get topspin atack and brush the ball now i just hit the ball and has a lot of speed. My question is, how to get more spin? Is it because i m not used to it and should i just practice more and also the sponge gets softer while playing more and get used more to the blade? Or it s a lost cause and i can t get more spin with this because the sponge is hard and rubber is not tacky? I will be patient, i m not the one who gives up but a question that i should have put soft rubbers just pops in my mind.. (changing the rubbers is not an option) i guess i m expecting a technical advice? Don t know, but i m waiting for your thoughts on this

    Let's take Timo Boll. His ball is super spinny, yes?

    He uses Tenergy 05 Hard. It is considered a hard rubber and non-tacky, yes?

    How come his return is still so spinny?

    Surely it is not an equipment malfunction issue, no?

    Last edited by Gozo; 09-05-2021 at 04:12 AM.

  6. brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 910
    B
    brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 910 409

    User Info Menu

    #6
    Think about it. If there was only friction then the ball's rotation would be proportional to the tangential speed of the paddle. However, spinny rubbers will deform or stretch across the surface and then snap back. It is this extra snapping back that adds to the spin. If the rubber is hard and doesn't deform or stretch it won't snap back or not as much. So, as suggested you need to brush the ball but tacky rubbers with grab the ball with less normal force than hard rubbers. If I brush too thinly the ball doesn't grip and seems to slide or fall off my paddle. Not good.

    When serving you throw the ball straight up. If you want a lot of back spin you hit the ball on the bottom with the paddle being horizontal. If the rubber is hard, the paddle will not apply much horizontal force to generate spin or even get the ball over the net. The only way to get more grip is to toss the ball higher so it impacts the rubber with more force but the ball will bounce up higher too so hit the ball at a lower position to compensate.

    There are two ways to go about this. You buy what is just right for you or you adapt to the paddle.






  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 16,014 14,497
    UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
    UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 14,497 16,014
    #7
    You are using rubbers that are an entirely different kind that the rubbers you have on your previous setup. They are so different that they require an entirely different technique to use effectively.

    It is up to you whether you should learn to use the new equipment or go back to the old equipment.

    Any chance you can show video footage of you playing with each setup? We really can't tell what you are actually doing with either setup without seeing what you are doing.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 09-05-2021 at 06:09 AM.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

  8. langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,054 2,218
    L
    langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,218 1,054
    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Think about it. If there was only friction then the ball's rotation would be proportional to the tangential speed of the paddle. However, spinny rubbers will deform or stretch across the surface and then snap back. It is this extra snapping back that adds to the spin. If the rubber is hard and doesn't deform or stretch it won't snap back or not as much. So, as suggested you need to brush the ball but tacky rubbers with grab the ball with less normal force than hard rubbers. If I brush too thinly the ball doesn't grip and seems to slide or fall off my paddle. Not good.

    When serving you throw the ball straight up. If you want a lot of back spin you hit the ball on the bottom with the paddle being horizontal. If the rubber is hard, the paddle will not apply much horizontal force to generate spin or even get the ball over the net. The only way to get more grip is to toss the ball higher so it impacts the rubber with more force but the ball will bounce up higher too so hit the ball at a lower position to compensate.

    There are two ways to go about this. You buy what is just right for you or you adapt to the paddle.

    Yes, and that's why players like Calderano toss very high.
    But it's possible to achieve good spin with lower toss, thinner brush and higher paddle speed.

    Also, speaking about "rubber" hardness, we mean just the sponge hardness.
    But things are more complicated.
    The "rubber" is a system of sponge + top sheet.
    Sponges of equal hardness may be covered with harder, or with softer top sheets, and this top sheets vary in thickness and pimple structure, geometry and density.
    That way different rubbers of same hardness will grab the ball in different way, depending on the many elements describing a particular stroke.
    There is a tendency the modern rubbers with harder sponges to have softer top sheets, making it easier to generate spin with softer touch, like in serves.

    The Following User Likes langel's Post:

    lodro


  9. brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 910
    B
    brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 910 409

    User Info Menu

    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    But it's possible to achieve good spin with lower toss, thinner brush and higher paddle speed.
    That assumes the ball impacts with enough force so the rubber and ball grip.
    Like you said, it gets complicated. There isn't much surface area in contact between the ball and rubber at first. There isn't much friction. The deeper the ball ball penetrates into the rubber the more the surface area of contact increases and it increases significantly at first. Again, the problem with high tosses is that the ball will bounce high too.

    The Following User Likes brokenball's Post:

    latej


  10. langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,054 2,218
    L
    langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,218 1,054
    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    That assumes the ball impacts with enough force so the rubber and ball grip.
    Like you said, it gets complicated. There isn't much surface area in contact between the ball and rubber at first. There isn't much friction. The deeper the ball ball penetrates into the rubber the more the surface area of contact increases and it increases significantly at first. Again, the problem with high tosses is that the ball will bounce high too.

    Yes it's complicated as I said, so the general assumptions about penetration and friction, and the Form of penetration, its geometry and pressure distribution through the ball contact surface, the particular type of the top sheet deformation and its elasticity characteristics - you just can't use general assumptions.

    The Following User Likes langel's Post:

    latej


  11. alextudor26 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 0 11
    A
    alextudor26 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 11 0

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    Romania
    11
    0
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #11
    Thank you for all the replies, i read every one of them, sorry for not answering in particular. I will keep practicing to get better and hopefully get the spin that i expect 👍

  12. YV13 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 8 46
    Y
    YV13 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 46 8
    #12
    Have some classes with good coach to improve your technique in term of footwork, positioning, timing and racket angle adjustment.

  13. brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 910
    B
    brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 910 409

    User Info Menu

    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    you just can't use general assumptions.
    But you can use common sense.
    There is a point where the rubber is too hard. At some point making the rubber harder will reduce spin. At some point making the rubber softer will reduce spin. In between these two points there is an optimal point.
    Where is it? This is a function of the rubber, not the player.
    Good coaching will not change this optimal point. It may help someone get the best out of what they have.
    There is a recent fad for hard rubbers, Why? How can this be justified if there is an optimal point. No one seems to be searching for it. Too many read the forums and go with the latest fad.

    I don't think the rubbers the OP bought are that hard but they must be harder than what the OP is use to.
    I use Rakza 7 which is probably similar to Rakza X. I have Rasanter 48 on my TB ALC. I prefer the Rakza 7.

    BTW, if you buy thicker rubber it will be softer even it is made out of the same material.
    WHY? Anybody?

    The Following User Likes brokenball's Post:

    Richie


  14. langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,054 2,218
    L
    langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,218 1,054
    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    There is a recent fad for hard rubbers, Why? How can this be justified if there is an optimal point. No one seems to be searching for it. Too many read the forums and go with the latest fad.

    Well, I've played with many rubbers, but will accent on three of them.

    Xiom Omega 5 Asia - about 48 degree, hard topsheet. Perfect for mid distance, good control at close distance, but really needs precise brushing over the table to achieve good spin.
    Xiom Omega 5 Tour - almost the same sponge as Asia, 47.5, but softer top sheet. Easier generation of spin over the table and at close distance. Less Max spin with aggressive top spin attacks at mid and longer distance.
    Xiom Omega 7 Asia - 52.5 deg sponge, which is very hard, soft top sheet, combines the best features of the 2 above.
    So yes, I'm really "searching" for it.


  15. YV13 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 8 46
    Y
    YV13 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    TTD Member 46 8
    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    But you can use common sense.
    There is a point where the rubber is too hard. At some point making the rubber harder will reduce spin. At some point making the rubber softer will reduce spin. In between these two points there is an optimal point.
    Where is it? This is a function of the rubber, not the player.
    Good coaching will not change this optimal point. It may help someone get the best out of what they have.
    There is a recent fad for hard rubbers, Why? How can this be justified if there is an optimal point. No one seems to be searching for it. Too many read the forums and go with the latest fad.

    I don't think the rubbers the OP bought are that hard but they must be harder than what the OP is use to.
    I use Rakza 7 which is probably similar to Rakza X. I have Rasanter 48 on my TB ALC. I prefer the Rakza 7.

    BTW, if you buy thicker rubber it will be softer even it is made out of the same material.
    WHY? Anybody?

    I don't believe thicker rubber will be softer because it will be the same hardness sponge just different thickness. You will need better technique to play Max thickness and control it. Also, IMO, optimal point is to use equipment that suits your style and you can control it well. Still equipment is only 20% and 80% is your technique. That's why if you have good coach you can fix problems you have and improve faster and eventually play with harder rubbers well. Ma Long can pick up cheap premade racket and after playing with it for 10 minuets he will beat everyone on this forum.

    Last edited by YV13; 09-05-2021 at 10:07 PM.

  16. langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 1,054 2,218
    L
    langel is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Master TTD Member 2,218 1,054
    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball

    BTW, if you buy thicker rubber it will be softer even it is made out of the same material.
    WHY? Anybody?

    Different compression dynamics and different max compression.

    A 10 cm thick pillow and a 20 cm one, both with same materials. Which one feels softer?

    That's true, and that's why thicker rubbers can provide better spin, but not usually not more speed.
    There is another characteristics, which may give a clue for that.
    Hard rubbers with less catapult would not give more speed if thicker, but will provide more spin. For example - Xiom Omega 7 Asia.
    Hard rubbers with more pronounced catapult would give more speed if thicker. For example Xiom Omega 7 Tour, which is harder than Asia, is designed to have more catapult than Asia, though usually softer rubbers have better catapult up to some speed level.

    So it's really complicated.

    And if we look at a higher pro level, the more complicated it will become.

    Timo Boll plays with T05, but saying just T05 is not enough.

    He measures the weight of every single sheet, and separate them in several groups.
    Because he likes to play with softer rubbers in bigger halls and with harder rubbers in smaller halls.
    And yes - T05, though BTY, vary in hardness, as any other rubber.

    For me it's the opposite - I like to play with harder rubbers in bigger halls and with softer rubbers in smaller halls.
    But I'm not using the slight differences in weight/which means hardness/ of the same type of rubbers, but just softer models, because I'm not Timo Boll.
    And I'm not doing this for the objective reasons, which Timo Boll follows, but just because here the tournaments in the smaller halls are with players, playing mainly over and close to the table, and the tournaments in bigger halls are mainly with aggressive mid and longer distance players.

    But, the more important - Timo Boll has found his way not through science, but through experience. Science just proofs he's right.



  17. brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 910
    B
    brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 910 409

    User Info Menu

    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by YV13

    I don't believe thicker rubber will be softer because it will be the same hardness sponge just different thickness.


    Does anybody else hazard a guess, opinion or better yet, a scientific argument.

    You will need better technique to play Max thickness and control it.
    Another opinion, why?

    Also, IMO, optimal point is to use equipment that suits your style and you can control it well.
    This fine but the thread is about harder rubbers having less spin. You might like harder rubbers but that probably will not result in more spin with the same effort.

    Still equipment is only 20% and 80% is your technique. That's why if you have good coach you can fix problems you have and improve faster.
    How does that change which hardness of rubber will have the most spin?

    Ma Long can pick up cheap premade racket and after playing with it for 10 minuets he will beat everyone on this forum.

    The topic is about hardness of rubber and spin. Not how great Ma Long is.
    Ma Long can't change the characteristics of the rubber. Ma Long can do what I suggested above., adapt to the paddle.

  18. LordPippington is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 213 307
    L
    LordPippington is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 307 213

    User Info Menu


    May 2016
    United States
    307
    213
    792
    Read 0 Reviews
    #18
    Pedantic science teacher lesson aside 😁

    I think what is trying trying be said here is... the amount of spin hard or soft generates over one or the other is a negligible difference (in actual play - excluding top end pros), and you should choose whichever one facilitates your stroking style!

    Whatever scientific reasoning is behind why x stroke works better with soft or hard etc.. does not concern the usual player.

    Having said that... I would be interested in knowing why, for the trivia fact database! 😎

  19. brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 910
    B
    brokenball is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Senior TTD Member 910 409

    User Info Menu

    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LordPippington
    Pedantic science teacher lesson aside 😁
    Having said that... I would be interested in knowing why, for the trivia fact database! 😎
    Think of a 2mm sponge as having 4 layers of 0.5mm sponge glued together and a 1.5mm sponge having 3 0.5mm layers. if a 10 N force is applied to the sponge each layer will be compressed by the same force and compress by the same amount. The 4 layer will compress 4/3 more than the 3 layers. Or it takes 3/4 the amount of force to compress a 2mm sponge 0.5 inches than it takes to compress a 1.5mm sponge 0.5 mm. Thus the 2mm sponge will feel softer. This is why the hardness ratings on the Paddle Palace website is nonsense.
    If you think about it is intuitive.

    Thicker rubbers are like springs in series.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series...rallel_springs
    Think of each 0.5mm layer as being like a mattress made up with little springs in a hex pattern.

  20. Lycanthrope is offline
    says From RPB to SH
     
    TTD Member 57 82
    L
    Lycanthrope is offline
    says From RPB to SH
     
    TTD Member 82 57
    #20
    That's the difference of tacky rubbers and non-tacky rubbers. Tacky rubbers allow you to thinly brush the balls to spin them, but same movement may make the balls slide on non-tacky rubbers. And hard non-tacky rubbers just make it worse. If you don't want to change the rubber, you can only do more practices to get used to it.

    The Following User Likes Lycanthrope's Post:

    brokenball


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Create a new Topic:
Title is required.