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  1. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #1

    Which is faster? Tenergy or old speed glue rubbers?

    Just curious, which is faster Tenergy or Bryce with speed glue?

  2. ZeroTT is offline
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    #2
    With glue you could control the speed of your rubbers because there were different ways to glue.

    For example: 1 Thin layer, A LOT of glue, multiple layers, let the glue dry up or even glue wet.
    Even the composition of the glue itself could be tweaked by putting lots of thinner in it or just a little and what kind of thinning you use.
    Some used Toluene which was highly toxic and others used Benzene, basically every product that could thin glue.

    So even in speed glue users there were HUGE differences in speed.

    We had some speed glue freaks in my days and the speed and spin is not even close to what it is now, those speed glue bats were faster and spinnier by a LARGE margin.
    You could take a simple classic MarkV Rubber and make it faster then any Tenergy around, it was even faster then today's boosted rubbers.
    So much faster that it influenced the strokes of the players. Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough.

    So in short: Speed Glue bats of the old days were faster then today's bats by a large margin.
    Last edited by ZeroTT; 09-15-2021 at 11:22 AM.

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    #3
    To the topic question - the ones you can control at your max speed.

    To the question "Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough" - because a long big stroke can make a lot of things the short quick stroke wouldn't.


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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    To the topic question - the ones you can control at your max speed.

    To the question "Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough" - because a long big stroke can make a lot of things the short quick stroke wouldn't.

    His question simply was: What is faster a Tenergy or a Speed Glue enhanced Bryce?

    And the simple answer is a speed glue bat from the old days was way faster then any bat right now.

    And my comment about "Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough" wasn't a question or a debate over what is better. It was simply to illustrate that when the speed glue got introduced the table tennis game evolved. Pro players changed from using big long strokes to smaller shorter strokes because the game was so fast that there was simply no time anymore for big long swings.


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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroTT

    His question simply was: What is faster a Tenergy or a Speed Glue enhanced Bryce?

    And the simple answer is a speed glue bat from the old days was way faster then any bat right now.

    And my comment about "Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough" wasn't a question or a debate over what is better. It was simply to illustrate that when the speed glue got introduced the table tennis game evolved. Pro players changed from using big long strokes to smaller shorter strokes because the game was so fast that there was simply no time anymore for big long swings.

    All that is just not true.

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    #6

    I think the OP is asking which would be faster now: Tenergy (let's assume T05) or Bryce with speed glue? In other words, I don't think the question is whether T05 is faster with the current 40+ ball versus speed-glued Bryce with the smaller and lighter ball of the previous generation.

    To the latter question (which I don't think the OP is asking): I think a speed-glued Bryce played faster with the old, small, lighter ball than a T05 does now with the heavier, 40+ ball.

    To the question I think is being asked: Butterfly give speed ratings (on their website) as follows:

    T05: 13
    Bryce: 12
    Bryce HighSpeed: 14.5

    With those numbers in mind it seems like even an un-speed-glued Bryce HighSpeed is faster than T05 - even against the current 40+ ball. And I suspect a speed-glued Bryce would probably also be faster than T05 against the current 40+ ball.

    Last edited by Manto76; 09-16-2021 at 07:42 AM.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Manto76

    I think the OP is asking which would be faster now: Tenergy (let's assume T05) or Bryce with speed glue? In other words, I don't think the question is whether T05 is faster with the current 40+ ball versus speed-glued Bryce with the smaller and lighter ball of the previous generation.

    To the latter question (which I don't think the OP is asking): I think a speed-glued Bryce played faster with the old, small, lighter ball than a T05 does now with the heavier, 40+ ball.

    To the question I think is begin asked: Butterfly give speed ratings (on their website) as follows:

    T05: 13
    Bryce: 12
    Bryce HighSpeed: 14.5

    With those numbers in mind it seems like even an un-speed-glued Bryce HighSpeed is faster than T05 - even against the current 40+ ball. And I suspect a speed-glued Bryce would probably also be faster than T05 against the current 40+ ball.

    Â

    Is that true? Why do top pros not use HighSpeed then?


  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Â

    Is that true? Why do top pros not use HighSpeed then?

    Faster is not something they need. Otherwise why would any of them use tacky rubbers. Bryce does not get anywhere near as much spin as T05 or D09c.

    In general, the top pros don't really use super fast equipment. Viscaria is not so fast. The rubbers they use are not sooooo fast. But the blade/rubber combinations they use are great for getting a good spin/speed ratio. They supply the speed and power with equipment that helps them spin the hell out of the ball.

    Or, that is how things seem to me.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 09-16-2021 at 02:36 AM.
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    #9

    UpSideDownCarl's answer is spot on: Speed comes primarily from technique, not primarily from equipment. Using equipment that has a spin/speed balance that's appropriate to your own skill level will both help you develop your technique and give you confidence to play your shots with full commitment.

    Last edited by Manto76; 09-16-2021 at 07:57 AM.

  10. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #10
    I guess I should add more:

    A spin/speed ratio means: spin over speed.

    A speed/spin ratio means: speed over spin.

    A rubber like Bryce Speed or High Speed gets a lot of speed but not a lot of spin so speed overpowers spin and the ball does not arc as much. With a rubber like T05 you can get adequate speed but the spin potential is greater than the speed, so that, when you spin the ball with power, the spin will overpower the speed and arc the ball down even though the ball is fast. Then the ball will kick on table causing the ball to accelerate on the bounce.

    The second shot I described above where the ball accelerates on the bounce because of the amount of spin, that kind of shot actually puts more pressure on your opponent. It also is a more accurate shot because the arc of the ball effectively makes it a higher percentage shot where it is easier to get a power shot to land on the table because the arc of the ball effectively makes the table a bigger target to hit.

    So, higher level players use spin to control where they put the ball. And the pace they add to the ball does come from good technique. But, so does the spin. It is just that, for Control+Power the more important part of the equation is spin. Because, even though the top pros can get more spin with a rubber that is not great at helping you generate spin, they get much more from a rubber that is good at helping you generate spin.

    The speed part is easy to add, even with a slow blade and rubbers.

    I had a friend who was a pro tennis player, and a decent level TT player. Who was not better than a decently high level as a result of subtleties of TT that have to do with spin and deception. But this guy could hit with more speed/spin/power than most pros I know. He had so much power that he used a Stiga Allround Classic with Mark V and said, if he used something faster it was too fast. But man, he loaded power into the ball when he swung. And with that Allround and Mark V, his shots were just as fast and spinny as a lot of guys who are 2400-2600 using Viscaria and T05.

    So, speed can be added with good technique. Spin can be added with good technique. But my understanding is, spin is the more important part of the equation for a high level player. So, blades that help you spin, and rubbers that can really grab and spin the ball.

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  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #11
    One of the unique qualities of a blade like a Viscaria with a Koto top ply and an ALC layer underneath is that the hard Koto top ply bites into the ball, the carbon does not cause you to lose speed, but the Arylate is soft which causes there to be give under the top ply so the ball sinks in really nicely. This dual quality of hard on top and soft underneath makes it so you can get extra speed over an all wood blade, but not really a lot extra (so, it is pretty controllable) but YOU CAN ALSO GET MORE SPIN as a result of how the Arylate works in the Arylate/Carbon weave.

    Arylate is sort of like a soft plastic, or, really, like a stronger version of polyester. I have charging cables for my phone and computer that are made with Arylate as the rubbery plastic like substance that makes the cable soft and bendable but really strong. Arylate added in a weave to the carbon, does not cause a significant loss of speed but it makes the composite layer much more compressable, and the rebound speed is fast. This really makes it so you can add a lot more spin if your technique is good.

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  12. KM1976 is offline
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    #12
    Such a simple question - try both. The one which you cannot play with or control is faster and one which you can play with or control is good. For you.
    Most of the times practice, patience and an observant mind answers all your questions

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    To the topic question - the ones you can control at your max speed.

    To the question "Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough" - because a long big stroke can make a lot of things the short quick stroke wouldn't.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    False! What can you do with a long stroke that can't be done with a short stroke that affects the ball?
    The ball doesn't care what happened before or after contact.

    I would bet that speed glued Bryce was faster than T05 but I would test the two rubbers by gluing them to a hard block of wood like a cutting board and then shooting TT balls at the rubbers from a relatively consistent source like a robot.

    When speed gluing you should know that it is the gasses that compress and return energy. Fluids compress a little but not much. Lighter volatile fluids compress much more than heavier oils and all compress much less than water. So don't over saturate the rubber with glue or wet fluids.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroTT
    So much faster that it influenced the strokes of the players. Why make a long big stroke when the bat was so fast that a short quick stroke is enough.
    Fast rubber may help you in producing fast shots, but it will not help you much with producing a lot of spin - that is on you regardless speed-glue era or not - here not the rubber but your own hand must be/move fast - and for that the long big stroke is better than shorter stroke.

    Whether speed glue influenced stroke of players I can't tell, I think things are not so black and white as what can be written, but generally I agree with langel, although I think he could write a little bit more than just that it is not true :-) Cheers.

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    #16
    What I meant was every evolution in table tennis material has an influence on play style and technique.
    People now with the 40 mm plastic play a bit different then people 20 years ago with speed glue and a 38mm celluloid ball.

    Timo Boll himself says it regularly on his blog how his play style changed with the 40mm plastic ball.

    Speed Glue was like a shockwave in the TT world which suddenly increased spin AND speed by a lot ( some say 20 to 30%, but numbers are arbitrary)
    And it was the combination of speed plus spin that made the game much faster.

    And as a result the game changed, compacter strokes were used more , just because the players could now.
    As quoted in this article: https://gregsttpages.com/guide-to-ta...disadvantages/

    Because speed glue increases the speed and spin of your strokes, you can also use a shortened stroke to still attack with power and spin, even when you are unable to use your normal full swing

    You don't have to accept this as fact , but I played with speed glue for more then 10 years in National competition and in my opinion ,the bats with speed glue were a lot faster then any bat I play with currently.


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    #17
    I can give you a direct comparison to a T05 unboosted vs a speed glued Hurricane 3 with the exact same 40+ ball. The speed glued H3 was Noticebly faster, softer and more spin (lots of arc) AND louder sound. Both used on the same blade too. Quite a big difference I might add, especially the arc, and to top it off the harder you hit it the more spin so it still comes down onto the table as if its angry LOL
    Bryce is faster than H3 so I would definitely assume it would be even faster

    Hope this helps.

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    #18
    "Because speed glue increases the speed and spin of your strokes, you can also use a shortened stroke to still attack with power and spin, even when you are unable to use your normal full swing"

    This short saying tells a lot more.


  19. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    All that is just not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    This short saying tells a lot more.
    Langel, these short statements are so unhelpful that they are basically meaningless. I would like you to explain some things about what it was like in the speed glue era rather than making such short statements that seem to me to be more of an attack on someone than anything about the ideas he presented.

    Please be detailed in your comment and please, since to me, it looks like you have already made comments that look more like oneupmanship than an actual account of anything, don't refer to the person you were trying to belittle.

    Thank you.
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Langel, these short statements are so unhelpful that they are basically meaningless. I would like you to explain some things about what it was like in the speed glue era rather than making such short statements that seem to me to be more of an attack on someone than anything about the ideas he presented.

    Please be detailed in your comment and please, since to me, it looks like you have already made comments that look more like oneupmanship than an actual account of anything, don't refer to the person you were trying to belittle.

    Thank you.

    Ok, thanks, maybe I will.

    But meanwhile I would like the participants in this discussion to think a little more about dwell time, distance travelled by the ball during the dwell time, the trajectory of the stroke during dwell time, the coordinates at which the ball leaves the bat.

    If we think about the full swing as just needed to provide the power at the moment of contact and this moment of contact is the same as with a short stroke, than yes - both may give similar results, but even than not Identical, because that moment of contact is never zero, and with the longer swing the ball will travel longer distance and will leave the bat on different coordinates. So even with such a simplified scenario the strokes will be different.
    But TT is not so simplified.


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