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  1. brokenball is offline
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    #21
    I would not distract this topic with talking about dwell time. Dwell time should be its own thread because it will be hotly debated.
    It always has been and always will be until someone, besides me, does the math instead of just giving opinions or repeating TT myths.

    If we think about the full swing as just needed to provide the power at the moment of contact and this moment of contact is the same as with a short stroke, than yes - both may give similar results, but even than not Identical, because that moment of contact is never zero, and with the longer swing the ball will travel longer distance and will leave the bat on different coordinates. So even with such a simplified scenario the strokes will be different.
    But TT is not so simplified.
    This topic deserves another thread too.

    Why am I repeating myself? The swing doesn't matter before or after contact as long as the speed and acceleration of impact, and where the ball is hit is the same. The advantage of a longer stroke is it puts less stress on the body. The disadvantage is that it takes longer, maybe too long.

    I don't understand the obsession with fast equipment. Most here don't play back from the table enough to need a fast paddle. The speed of the ball drops by roughly 1/2 for every 5 meters of travel due to air resistance so speed is attenuated quickly as a function of distance. So what is the difference in the attenuation of speed if there is 4 meters between the players or 6 meters between the players?




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    #22
    The advantage of a longer movement is to help consistency and since humans are not computers the muscles don't work like zeroes and ones. You need longer movement to create the speed of the racket, but yes if you hit the ball the same way and speed it doesn't make a difference if it's a short or long movement.
    But during a long movement, I initiate muscles that I don't during a short movement, and even though it feels like I'm only doing something after ball contact it's actually has a significant effect on the contact. Table tennis is a lot of "feels" too, you have a feeling of a motion and try to repeat that.

    Fast equipment is nice if you are a power player even close to the table. If you can put the ball away with high enough speed that your opponent cannot even react... it's really good. Nothing is better than a shot that the opponent cannot even reach not to mention it makes them "scared" or shaky. They might just make a few extra mistakes later too.

    Just to be on-topic speed glued Bryce was faster than Tenergy. I only played with Sriver when I was little, but I think a speed glued Sriver is similar to Tenergy considering speed. But it's a bit hard to judge since not only the rubbers have changed the blades also got faster over the years. If you try a Viscaria from the 90s it will most likely feel softer than a currently made one.

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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball

    Why am I repeating myself? The swing doesn't matter before or after contact as long as the speed and acceleration of impact, and where the ball is hit is the same. The advantage of a longer stroke is it puts less stress on the body. The disadvantage is that it takes longer, maybe too long.

    That's a misconception.

    The advantage of the long stroke is in the ability to execute strokes, that a short tick-tock touch would be unable to do.
    The disadvantage is that you can't be in position to do it always, so sometimes you have to do the short stroke.
    And speaking of "full swing" you have to understand, that every ball needs its best reply - sometimes it can be tick, sometimes it has to be a longer stroke.
    For example, even if we look only over the table, a well produced flick should be considered as a full swing stroke in comparison to a tick-push, and the result would be due to the prolonged dwell time and everything I've already exposed above. And there are so many scenarios and situations at different distances and players' placement and ball placement/speed/spin/trajectory, that it's really inadequate to speak about spin/speed ratios only.


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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    That's a misconception.

    The advantage of the long stroke is in the ability to execute strokes, that a short tick-tock touch would be unable to do.
    The disadvantage is that you can't be in position to do it always, so sometimes you have to do the short stroke.
    And speaking of "full swing" you have to understand, that every ball needs its best reply - sometimes it can be tick, sometimes it has to be a longer stroke.
    For example, even if we look only over the table, a well produced flick should be considered as a full swing stroke in comparison to a tick-push, and the result would be due to the prolonged dwell time and everything I've already exposed above. And there are so many scenarios and situations at different distances and players' placement and ball placement/speed/spin/trajectory, that it's really inadequate to speak about spin/speed ratios only.

    What is a misconception? He is right actually if you can hit the ball with the same force in a 1cm hand movement it will produce the same result as if you did a 1 meter movement. It's just that humans don't work that way.

    Also what is this dwell time, is this the elasticity of the rubber and sponge?


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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    The advantage of the long stroke is in the ability to execute strokes, that a short tick-tock touch would be unable to do.
    So a short stroke is not a stroke? That doesn't make sense.
    You still have explained why a short stroke will not do.
    You haven't refuted my point that what comes before and after contact doesn't make any difference to the ball as long as the contact is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwill
    The advantage of a longer movement is to help consistency and since humans are not computers the muscles don't work like zeroes and ones.
    I would like to see documentation that longer movement is more consistent.

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I would like to see documentation that longer movement is more consistent.
    I don't have any documentation, but physically it makes sense for me. You know in the sense, more energy on a short scale means more chaos, means less consistent.

    But take e.g. darts. Try to hit the target with only 5cm movement of your arm. Definitely possible, but you must be pretty precise. It is just harder for average person to do. Not impossible, see Mima Ito BH. I think in this sense he means longer means more easily consistent. Fluid.

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    I don't have any documentation, but physically it makes sense for me. You know in the sense, more energy on a short scale means more chaos, means less consistent.

    But take e.g. darts. Try to hit the target with only 5cm movement of your arm. Definitely possible, but you must be pretty precise. It is just harder for average person to do. Not impossible, see Mima Ito BH. I think in this sense he means longer means more easily consistent. Fluid.
    Your argument doesn't hold. It is one sided. 10 cm may be better than 5 cm but is 100 cm? 100cm is definitely a longer "stroke" than 10cm and I am pretty sure that most dart players don't have a stroke of 100 cm. Also, darts is a bad example since one isn't under a time pressure like when playing TT.

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #28
    Peter, why do you love arguing so much. Does it really matter who is right?

    A lot of the stuff you say is pretty straight forward and obvious and I am not sure why people would not get it.

    If the the racket is moving at the same speed on contact, and the tangential contact is the same, and the ball penetrates the same amount into the topsheet and sponge, then YOU WILL GET THE SAME RESULTS regardless of how large or small the stroke is. The only thing that matters is what the racket is doing on contact. Two identical forces applied identically to the ball will produce the same results.

    But I think your presentation makes people want to continue the argumentative tone because of how contentious you can be. Sometimes you don't realize it. But, it does sound insulting even if what you are saying is just simple and straight forward.

    So please try and be as diplomatic and polite as possible. Thank you.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:08 AM.
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  9. Gozo is offline
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    #29
    This long stroke and short stroke discussion piqued my interest and I wish to contribute my input on this matter as I understand it.

    I'll use the concept of two jet fighter taxing on the runway. One is on a land based runway, the other is on an air-craft carrier runway. The final outcome is that both the jet fighter must be airborne but one has a long runway, the other has a short runway.

    Lets talk about the one on the air-craft carrier. To achieve flight, she must be catapulted and assisted with technology to launch her into flight. The one on a conventional land based runway will use momentum to achieve a suitable speed to take-off.

    Similarly, where one is using a short stroke, you need to generate a lot of centripetal force or waist rotation in a short time / distance to return the ball. Hence a rubber with tensor and spring sponge will assist with this stroke. Timo Boll is a fine example of a successful short-stroke player. Could it be a coincidence he uses Tenergy on his FH?

    Moving on to a long-stroker. Ma Long the GOAT is one such player. He uses his full arm swing to generate an insane amount of force. He is using momentum to build up the force. Hence, IMO, if he uses a tensor rubber with spring sponge, his FH topspin will most likely overshoot the runway, ahem, I meant the table. Hence a very tacky rubber to create monstrous spin and a non-catapult hard sponge to transfer all his hitting power to the ball is ideal for his type of stroke.

    What about Dima? He is a long-stroker but he still uses Tension rubber with power sponge on his FH. But, look closely at the angle of his racquet during his FH stroke. I notice it to be very closed. Much more closed angle compared to other players. I believe he is doing it to compensate and prevent the ball from over-shooting the table.

    What do you TT enthusiast think? Is my observation dead-on or flawed?
    Last edited by Gozo; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:47 AM.

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    #30
    [quote="UpSideDownCarl;352625"]Peter, why do you love arguing so much. Does it really matter who is right?
    I am not arguing. I am challenging people's opinions/myths.
    It is important that myths are not perpetuated. The forum should have useful facts instead of useless opinions.

    A lot of the stuff you say is pretty straight forward and obvious.
    I agree.

    and I am not sure why people would not get it
    Many are high school or college age. Few are educated in physics or engineering. They listen to the same garbage that gets repeated over and over again. That is why.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Peter, why do you love arguing so much. Does it really matter who is right?

    A lot of the stuff you say is pretty straight forward and obvious and I am not sure why people would not get it.

    If the the racket is moving at the same speed on contact, and the tangential contact is the same, and the ball penetrates the same amount into the topsheet and sponge, then YOU WILL GET THE SAME RESULTS regardless of how large or small the stroke is. The only thing that matters is what the racket is doing on contact. Two identical forces applied identically to the ball will produce the same results.

    But I think your presentation makes people want to continue the argumentative tone because of how contentious you can be. Sometimes you don't realize it. But, it does sound insulting even if what you are saying is just simple and straight forward.

    So please try and be as diplomatic and polite as possible. Thank you.

    It's a discussion, Carl.

    You say that
    "If the the racket is moving at the same speed on contact, and the tangential contact is the same, and the ball penetrates the same amount into the topsheet and sponge, then YOU WILL GET THE SAME RESULTS regardless of how large or small the stroke is. The only thing that matters is what the racket is doing on contact. Two identical forces applied identically to the ball will produce the same results."
    And that's true. But that would be true only if we speak about rubbers with identical properties and about strokes, in which the longer swing is useless.

    At the beginning of the thread I said that "a longer swing can do what a shorter stroke wouldn't. And later I gave an example with a push and a flip over the table. Isn't it obvious that any kind of a short stroke would not give you what a flip could? And here I speak about the strokes, not about the rubber differences. They do matter, but it's another story.

    Another question was the argument, that with faster rubbers you may achieve the same as with slower ones, but with shorter stroke.
    And here my arguments are, that this is not exactly true, I've explained why, you can read it again.
    With different rubbers some, or a lot, or all of the "iffs" in the quote above could not be achieved. The strokes will not be identical.

    No matter the rubbers it's a matter of the players ability to chose and use short or longer swing, depending on the many factors of the particular situation.



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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Your argument doesn't hold. It is one sided. 10 cm may be better than 5 cm but is 100 cm? 100cm is definitely a longer "stroke" than 10cm and I am pretty sure that most dart players don't have a stroke of 100 cm. Also, darts is a bad example since one isn't under a time pressure like when playing TT.
    BB, in another thread you said it's all about speed. I understood it so that you speak about speed of the bat at the moment of contact. And I very much agree. The swing is like a rotation, it has radius. The longer the radius, the faster the bat speed, given the same rate of body/arm rotation (angular speed). So certain bat speeds are unatainable with short stroke, and you need long swing.

    That is the first difference for me. In this first case we were concerned with the radius of the imaginary circle. Now it is about the distance the bat travels on that circle. You are absolutely right that the ball doesn't care what the bat did before and after contact. Noone is disputing it, it would be futile, noone tried to dispute it. Still there is a difference. If you allow only short distance before the contact, you need to accelerate more to reach the desired speed. You need more power, and your error rate may increase. Similarly if you allow only short distance after the contact, you need more power to de-accelerate. I think that is why Zwill hinted at consistency.

    Of course you may say, that the stroke is not that, that the stroke is actually only the contact with the ball. Then both the points above are a moot.

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    #33
    Yeah, if you strain your muscle they become really inaccurate. (tense up your whole arm and try to write on paper) Also if you try to stop your movement immediately after ball contact you need to start deaccelerating earlier for which you strain your muscles again, so not only will your racket be slower at ball contact, some other muscles will become tense again at ball contact. It will be an inferior shot and most likely your accuracy will be lower as well.
    It's a really inefficient way of play, and I would assume it makes you even more tired. It's always a good idea to look at how professional players do it, there are thousands of videos online of matchplay, or nowadays many training videos as well.

    But if someone is just a hobby player full swings will make them more inaccurate than some short hits. If someone's idea of consistency is when Dan did the longest rally with his dad sure they did short weak strokes for several hours. Just that kind of play won't get you far if you try to defeat others.

  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    It's a discussion, Carl.

    You say that
    "If the the racket is moving at the same speed on contact, and the tangential contact is the same, and the ball penetrates the same amount into the topsheet and sponge, then YOU WILL GET THE SAME RESULTS regardless of how large or small the stroke is. The only thing that matters is what the racket is doing on contact. Two identical forces applied identically to the ball will produce the same results."
    And that's true. But that would be true only if we speak about rubbers with identical properties and about strokes, in which the longer swing is useless.

    At the beginning of the thread I said that "a longer swing can do what a shorter stroke wouldn't. And later I gave an example with a push and a flip over the table. Isn't it obvious that any kind of a short stroke would not give you what a flip could? And here I speak about the strokes, not about the rubber differences. They do matter, but it's another story.

    Another question was the argument, that with faster rubbers you may achieve the same as with slower ones, but with shorter stroke.
    And here my arguments are, that this is not exactly true, I've explained why, you can read it again.
    With different rubbers some, or a lot, or all of the "iffs" in the quote above could not be achieved. The strokes will not be identical.

    No matter the rubbers it's a matter of the players ability to chose and use short or longer swing, depending on the many factors of the particular situation.

    The issue is, you are arguing with a proposition that was set up so it cannot be anything except correct. All the variables were taken out. And yet you are still trying to argue. So, you could have said whatever you want. And you could be talking past BrokenBall and not about the same thing. But what he said can only be correct because he has set it up that way. Think about why you are getting drawn in to it and decide if you actually want to participate.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:33 PM.
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    #35
    That and the OP must be bored shitless because this is totally not what he asked.

    The Following User Likes Brs's Post:

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    That and the OP must be bored shitless because this is totally not what he asked.
    It was not so bad. I really hope, eventually, no bad taste remains in the mouth in anyone of us!

    The discussion/thread was OK. There was nothing that would irritate me much. What irritates me more are posts of the style: "butterfly blades are best paired with butterfly rubbers". That and the spammers ;-)

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