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  1. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #1

    Power vs speed difference?

    Sometimes I see rubbers that emphasize power, and some emphasize speed, but what is the difference? Isnt a ball that travels faster by definition more powerful?Â

    For example, what is difference between 729 bloom power and bloom speed?Â
    Â

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    #2
    My understanding is that Power=Speed+Spin

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    #3
    There is (almost) no spin needed for power...

    Cheers
    L-zr

  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #4
    Which ball bites your racket harder: a ball that is fast with no spin? or a ball with a lot of spin and decent speed? Which one feels heavier when it hits your racket?

    A ball that is very fast with only a little spin, slows down while still in the air. A ball with a lot of topspin will kick after the bounce and accelerate. And it will arc after the bounce and so, reach the ground while still going decently fast.

    So, my understanding of power is like what Lycanthrope said: Speed + Spin = Power.

    But I guess, a very fast ball with little spin may be more powerful than a slow ball with moderate to high spin depending on the speed of the fast shot.

    And a moderate speed ball with an absolute ton of spin could be more powerful than a moderately fast ball with basically no spin.

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    #5
    The power a ball has is exactly the power put into it when hit, no more no less.
    If I do a perfect flat hit hit ALL the force goes into the ball.
    If I spin the ball there is always some slippage (like a fast brush) that doesn't go anywhere....
    A ball with spin also loses energy in its trajectory, actually more then a non spinning ball.

    Cheers
    L-zr

  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    The power a ball has is exactly the power put into it when hit, no more no less.
    If I do a perfect flat hit hit ALL the force goes into the ball.
    If I spin the ball there is always some slippage (like a fast brush) that doesn't go anywhere....
    A ball with spin also loses energy in its trajectory, actually more then a non spinning ball.

    Cheers
    L-zr

    "A ball with spin loses energy...." Yeah, it loses energy (speed and spin). But it drops towards the ground faster which means you have less time to wait for it to lose energy. Where as a flat shot will float more. There is a reason, top level players don't usually have that much trouble with someone who hits flat.

    What you say is technically correct. But in TT, spin increases accuracy and also makes the ball harder to return. So, functionally, power in TT is the combination of spin + speed. But from a physics standpoint, you are correct.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 09-23-2021 at 02:14 PM.
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  7. Lazer is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    "A ball with spin loses energy...." Yeah, it loses energy (speed and spin). But it drops towards the ground faster which means you have less time to wait for it to lose energy. Where as a flat shot will float more. There is a reason, top level players don't usually have that much trouble with someone who hits flat.

    What you say is technically correct. But in TT, spin increases accuracy and also makes the ball harder to return. So, functionally, power in TT is the combination of spin + speed. But from a physics standpoint, you are correct.

    If You are close to table which is more difficult a smash or a hard loop?
    I have never heard of anybody waiting for the ball to loose energy. and I think it is easier to return a ball with topspin hard than one without...
    Sidespin makes the trajectory difficult but I would not consider it to have more power...

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    If You are close to table which is more difficult a smash or a hard loop?
    I have never heard of anybody waiting for the ball to loose energy. and I think it is easier to return a ball with topspin hard than one without...
    Sidespin makes the trajectory difficult but I would not consider it to have more power...

    Okay. We can agree to disagree.

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    #9
    Balls and rubbers don't have power. They have energy. Power is the generating energy/time. Balls and rubbers don't generate power. People do.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt
    Balls have translational kinetic and
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy
    rotational kinetic energy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy
    They also have potential energy in the form of elevation.
    The kinetic energy is necessary for estimating how far the ball will penetrate into the rubber.
    Neglecting spin. (1/2*)mass*velocity^2=(1/2)*k*distance^2
    Where k is the spring constant.
    Basically, when the ball hits the rubber, all its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy and heat in the deformation of the sponge, ball and blade. You hand absorbs some too. How fast the paddle is depends on how much of that energy that gets transferred back to the ball as kinetic energy again.
    .

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    #10
    Like clock work, here we go again...

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Like clock work, here we go again...
    So what is wrong with my post? I have provided links. Are you going to dispute the links?
    I could/should have given a more simple but maybe less intuitive answer.
    Speed is measured in distance/time
    Power is measured in force*distance/time.
    Using metric units
    speed is m/s
    power is N*m/s, that is Newton*meters/second.
    The units are different?
    Is that clearer?
    It can't get more basic than that.
    Are you going to dispute this?
    Do you have something against learning the truth?

    The question I have is why are people trying to answer this question when clearly they don't know and they could look it up.




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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    So what is wrong with my post?
    Yes the ball has (or excerpts) power (when it is hit, racket to ball), this power is then transferred to energy and
    when the ball is traveling through the air that energy is dissipating to the air (through power)
    and when hitting the table at the other side as well as the opponents racket.

    You are making a fool of Yourself by marking words that a normal person would understand.

    And by the way.:
    No a blade can not have speed (unless you count the swing) or control. We are talking about
    how fast the ball will travel after it is hit (speed) and how easy a player can control his own shots.
    Those two properties are close to the inverse of each other (more speed less control)
    A normal person would understand this too.

    A blade has flex and hardness and at simplest it translates to speed, control and dwell time.
    To give it more characteristics would complicate things beyond practicality.


    Last edited by Lazer; 09-24-2021 at 07:32 AM.

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    #13
    USDC, I understand exactly what Lazer is saying.
    We can't both be right.
    Don't tell us both answers are equally valid.
    Why do you permit this nonsense?
    I am not painting Lazer into a corner. He put himself there.
    I can't believe it even after I post the difference between speed and power.

    OK, Lazer.
    How much power does a 2.7gm TT ball have traveling at 10 m/s?
    This should be interesting.

    It would be so funny to hear someone say I have a 5 KW or a 1 HP pingpong ball.






  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    USDC, I understand exactly what Lazer is saying.
    We can't both be right.
    Could you explain to me what Lazer means here:
    Lazer;352929

    You are making a fool of Yourself by marking words that a normal person would understand.

    This is central. If you can explain it to me, you should be able to move forward.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Could you explain to me what Lazer means here:

    This is central. If you can explain it to me, you should be able to move forward.

    Are you making fun of Lazer's inability to create an intelligible sentence?
    The first part is obvious.
    The key words are "You are making a fool of yourself". This part is obvious.
    The question is how.
    The key words here are words and understand.
    It is easy to fill in the blanks.
    It is easy to see he didn't like my use of physics words.

    BTW, the black and white picture would be handy for explaining the effects of dwell time on spin.
    Zwill is right. Power = mass*velocity*acceleration.



  16. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Are you making fun of Lazer's inability to create an intelligible sentence?
    The first part is obvious.
    The key words are "You are making a fool of yourself". This part is obvious.
    The question is how.
    The key words here are words and understand.
    It is easy to fill in the blanks.
    It is easy to see he didn't like my use of physics words.

    BTW, the black and white picture would be handy for explaining the effects of dwell time on spin.
    Zwill is right. Power = mass*velocity*acceleration.
    He is saying that you are doing what you always do. You are refusing to acknowledge that the way people are using words, are different than how you want them to use those words. So you are taking those words, using your definitions for those words, and then arguing with the nonsensical meanings you create which are different than what the person originally intended by what they wrote.

    Note Lazer's explanation of speed and control in post #12. It sounds to me like a classic statement that even though we know a racket (blade and/or rubbers) do not control anything, certain equipment may be easier to control for certain shots than other equipment.....certain equipment may make it easier for you to control certain types of shots.....and refusing to acknowledge that the "common" usage of a word like control in TT does not mean anyone thinks that the equipment exerts any kind of control on anything is actually a bit strange. It is easy to just acknowledge the figure of speach and move on, whereas, what you generally do is insist someone saying that a particular piece of equipment "has good control" means the person actually thinks the equipment is actually exerting the control.

    So, once again, you are not trying to understand what other people are trying to say and instead, when they use certain words that are, for you, buzz words, you insist on interpreting those words how you WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO USE THEM, rather than in the way the person writing intended his words to be understood.

    BTW: I do feel your first post in this thread was fine. You were presenting information and not responding to anyone else in the thread. I actually thought it was good. And I do see you did not initiate the conflict. You are not alone in acting like an argumentative person (you never are, it does take two, but I would like you to learn how to avoid these kinds of flame wars, I really would). Nor do I think Lazer is being civil saying he thinks you are making a fool of yourself. He may believe that. I may think you are both making yourselves look less mature than you should be since you are both elder statesmen. But, I think think you are both behaving with fairly poor manners if I am honest.

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  17. brokenball is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    He is saying that you are doing what you always do. You are refusing to acknowledge that the way people are using words, are different than how you want them to use those words.
    This is so woke! So words can mean what you want them to mean.
    The real test is if they can find links that prove what they say. Otherwise you and this site is perpetuating misinformation.
    Also, people not eventually learn. All of this could have be resolved 10+ years ago.

    So you are taking those words, using your definitions for those words, and then arguing with the nonsensical meanings you create which are different than what the person originally intended by what they wrote.
    FALSE! I can/have posted links to the standard definitions.

    Note Lazer's explanation of speed and control in post #12.
    He started off with the ball has power. How many 100W balls do you have in your pocket?
    The rest was OK but then I simply asked Lazer to calculate the power of the ball traveling 10 m/s
    Zwill spolied the fun with the right answer. So balls don't have power for the reason Zwill stated and I backed up his statement the the formula for power.

    It sounds to me like a classic statement that even though we know a racket (blade and/or rubbers) do not control anything,
    Yes, I have said the same myths get perpetuated over and over gain until challendged.

    certain equipment may be easier to control for certain shots than other equipment.....certain equipment may make it easier for you to control certain types of shots
    Yes!

    .....and refusing to acknowledge that the "common" usage of a word like control in TT does not mean anyone thinks that the equipment exerts any kind of control on anything is actually a bit strange.
    Do you think it is right that TT manufacturers mislead young players that don't know the truth when the post a "control" rating?

    It is easy to just acknowledge the figure of speach and move on, whereas, what you generally do is insist someone saying that a particular piece of equipment "has good control" means the person actually thinks the equipment is actually exerting the control.
    I will ask the same. Why can't we acknowledge people have control and move on.
    People have feedback and the power to control things. Blades and rubbers don't.
    BTW, the part about different equipment makes it easier to do different things is good but off topic.
    I thought we were talking about speed and power.

    So, once again, you are not trying to understand what other people are trying to say and instead, when they use certain words that are, for you, buzz words, you insist on interpreting those words how you WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO USE THEM, rather than in the way the person writing intended his words to be understood.
    So you want the myths to persist.

    BTW: I do feel your first post in this thread was fine. You were presenting information and not responding to anyone else in the thread.
    lazer didn't.

    I actually thought it was good. And I do see you did not initiate the conflict.
    Finally! Yet you are writing this to me, not Lazer.

    You are not alone in acting like an argumentative person (you never are, it does take two, but I would like you to learn how to avoid these kinds of flame wars, I really would). Nor do I think Lazer is being civil saying he thinks you are making a fool of yourself. He may believe that. I may think you are both making yourselves look less mature than you should be since you are both elder statesmen. But, I think think you are both behaving with fairly poor manners if I am honest.
    There should be no argument. Arguments require a difference in opinion. There should be no arguments about common facts.

    BTW, this thread has gone off topic and down hill since Zwill and I have established that TT balls don't have power. There are too many false opinions. There are so misconceptions that people can't prove.

    Is it too much to ask people to post a link to prove what they are saying or do opinions rule here and all opinions are equal?

  18. Lazer is offline
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    #18
    You put Yourself in a corner by being so petty...

    BTW.
    You said "Balls and rubbers don't have power. They have energy. "
    Wrong, they don't have energy, the player put energy into them, by using power.
    Last edited by Lazer; 09-24-2021 at 08:50 AM.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    You put Yourself in a corner by being so petty...

    BTW.
    You said "Balls and rubbers don't have power. They have energy. "
    Wrong, they don't have energy, the player put energy into them, by using power.So how much power does the 10m.s TT ball have?
    Moving TT balls have energy. Not power.
    Your last statement makes no sense.
    First you say they have no energy and then you say the player puts the energy in them.
    Yes the player transfer energy to the ball. You got that right.
    But you haven't answered my question about how much power a TT ball has traveling 10m/s
    I can tell you how much kinetic energy it has.
    I want you to tell me how much power it has.
    Why to you guys insist on being so resistant to facts when I post links to them?

    The OP wants to know the difference between speed and power. I have given two ways of looking at it.
    You have provided none.


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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    But you haven't answered my question about how much power a TT ball has traveling 10m/s

    None, it's doing no acceleration, not doing any work and it has no power.
    Can we move on?

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