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  1. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    USDC, I understand exactly what Lazer is saying.
    We can't both be right.
    Could you explain to me what Lazer means here:
    Lazer;352929

    You are making a fool of Yourself by marking words that a normal person would understand.

    This is central. If you can explain it to me, you should be able to move forward.

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Could you explain to me what Lazer means here:

    This is central. If you can explain it to me, you should be able to move forward.

    Are you making fun of Lazer's inability to create an intelligible sentence?
    The first part is obvious.
    The key words are "You are making a fool of yourself". This part is obvious.
    The question is how.
    The key words here are words and understand.
    It is easy to fill in the blanks.
    It is easy to see he didn't like my use of physics words.

    BTW, the black and white picture would be handy for explaining the effects of dwell time on spin.
    Zwill is right. Power = mass*velocity*acceleration.



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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwill
    I don't think a human in very good physical condition can output more than 3-400W of power in a motion that resembles a table tennis stroke. But if it makes anyone feel better the Earth moves really freaking fast so all of your table tennis balls are pretty fast already.


    I haven't tried any 729 bloom rubbers yet and not much specs are written about them. But I'm assuming the manufacturer is differentiating Speed, Spin, Power so people who have a powerplay style or spin oriented style can chose the right one. Since these are really cheap rubbers probably they are just changing the sponge type or the surface tackiness. So spin is probably more tacky, power has a dead feeling hard sponge, and speed has a bouncy sponge.
    They could be also playing with the topsheet rubber's pimple geometry but I don't want to give 729 too much credit in this price segment.

    They are cheap rubbers, one can experiment.
    Â

    Why would dead feeling be considered "power"? If its true that speed has a bouncy sponge, then that certainly seems more desirable.Â


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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Â

    Why would dead feeling be considered "power"? If its true that speed has a bouncy sponge, then that certainly seems more desirable.Â

    It's really up to the individual what is desirable. There are people who don't have a fast arm swing or are very short but have very fine wrists, for them a bouncy and fast rubber might be more desirable.
    There are players who are big and clumsy and for them, a dead feeling rubber is beneficial above the table, and they can achieve fast racket speed with their long arms so a slow dead rubber is plenty fast too to make a finishing shot.
    Dead sponges have some other advantages as well, they don't let the ball bite too much. Why is this good? Imagine you get a huge underspin and you just hold your racket vertically. The ball will shoot down after contact on a rubber that bites very well. On a dead sponge this doesn't happen so drastically.

    This might be an unpopular opinion but I find H3N or similar rubbers not so good for spin generating, instead if I try to hit the ball like I try to demolish a wall underspin is basically not registering on the rubber and I can just loopkill almost everything. Of course, you need to have good physical condition for this. My height is more on the shorter side, but I use my legs and body and it works really well. On softer sponges and rubbers that bite more I find to execute this kind of shot more like a lucky event rather than something I can use successfully on a regular basis.

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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwill

    It's really up to the individual what is desirable. There are people who don't have a fast arm swing or are very short but have very fine wrists, for them a bouncy and fast rubber might be more desirable.
    There are players who are big and clumsy and for them, a dead feeling rubber is beneficial above the table, and they can achieve fast racket speed with their long arms so a slow dead rubber is plenty fast too to make a finishing shot.
    Dead sponges have some other advantages as well, they don't let the ball bite too much. Why is this good? Imagine you get a huge underspin and you just hold your racket vertically. The ball will shoot down after contact on a rubber that bites very well. On a dead sponge this doesn't happen so drastically.

    This might be an unpopular opinion but I find H3N or similar rubbers not so good for spin generating, instead if I try to hit the ball like I try to demolish a wall underspin is basically not registering on the rubber and I can just loopkill almost everything. Of course, you need to have good physical condition for this. My height is more on the shorter side, but I use my legs and body and it works really well. On softer sponges and rubbers that bite more I find to execute this kind of shot more like a lucky event rather than something I can use successfully on a regular basis.

    Can you clarify what exactly you mean by "biting" rubber?

    The harder rubber would provide less ball penetration and the rebound angle will be wider.
    The softer rubber would provide deeper ball penetration and the rebound angle will be tighter.

    Hard sponges with hard top sheets may be way more sensitive to the incoming spin, reacting with a wider response angle, compared to rubbers with even harder sponges but with softer top sheets. For example the Xiom Omega 5 Asia has a sponge of around 48 deg and a hard top sheet, the Xiom Omega 7 Asia has a sponge of around 52 deg and a softer top sheet.. As a result the 7th gen has a tighter response angle to the incoming spin and in power play the incoming spin is much more neglectable.

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  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Are you making fun of Lazer's inability to create an intelligible sentence?
    The first part is obvious.
    The key words are "You are making a fool of yourself". This part is obvious.
    The question is how.
    The key words here are words and understand.
    It is easy to fill in the blanks.
    It is easy to see he didn't like my use of physics words.

    BTW, the black and white picture would be handy for explaining the effects of dwell time on spin.
    Zwill is right. Power = mass*velocity*acceleration.
    He is saying that you are doing what you always do. You are refusing to acknowledge that the way people are using words, are different than how you want them to use those words. So you are taking those words, using your definitions for those words, and then arguing with the nonsensical meanings you create which are different than what the person originally intended by what they wrote.

    Note Lazer's explanation of speed and control in post #12. It sounds to me like a classic statement that even though we know a racket (blade and/or rubbers) do not control anything, certain equipment may be easier to control for certain shots than other equipment.....certain equipment may make it easier for you to control certain types of shots.....and refusing to acknowledge that the "common" usage of a word like control in TT does not mean anyone thinks that the equipment exerts any kind of control on anything is actually a bit strange. It is easy to just acknowledge the figure of speach and move on, whereas, what you generally do is insist someone saying that a particular piece of equipment "has good control" means the person actually thinks the equipment is actually exerting the control.

    So, once again, you are not trying to understand what other people are trying to say and instead, when they use certain words that are, for you, buzz words, you insist on interpreting those words how you WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO USE THEM, rather than in the way the person writing intended his words to be understood.

    BTW: I do feel your first post in this thread was fine. You were presenting information and not responding to anyone else in the thread. I actually thought it was good. And I do see you did not initiate the conflict. You are not alone in acting like an argumentative person (you never are, it does take two, but I would like you to learn how to avoid these kinds of flame wars, I really would). Nor do I think Lazer is being civil saying he thinks you are making a fool of yourself. He may believe that. I may think you are both making yourselves look less mature than you should be since you are both elder statesmen. But, I think think you are both behaving with fairly poor manners if I am honest.

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    He is saying that you are doing what you always do. You are refusing to acknowledge that the way people are using words, are different than how you want them to use those words.
    This is so woke! So words can mean what you want them to mean.
    The real test is if they can find links that prove what they say. Otherwise you and this site is perpetuating misinformation.
    Also, people not eventually learn. All of this could have be resolved 10+ years ago.

    So you are taking those words, using your definitions for those words, and then arguing with the nonsensical meanings you create which are different than what the person originally intended by what they wrote.
    FALSE! I can/have posted links to the standard definitions.

    Note Lazer's explanation of speed and control in post #12.
    He started off with the ball has power. How many 100W balls do you have in your pocket?
    The rest was OK but then I simply asked Lazer to calculate the power of the ball traveling 10 m/s
    Zwill spolied the fun with the right answer. So balls don't have power for the reason Zwill stated and I backed up his statement the the formula for power.

    It sounds to me like a classic statement that even though we know a racket (blade and/or rubbers) do not control anything,
    Yes, I have said the same myths get perpetuated over and over gain until challendged.

    certain equipment may be easier to control for certain shots than other equipment.....certain equipment may make it easier for you to control certain types of shots
    Yes!

    .....and refusing to acknowledge that the "common" usage of a word like control in TT does not mean anyone thinks that the equipment exerts any kind of control on anything is actually a bit strange.
    Do you think it is right that TT manufacturers mislead young players that don't know the truth when the post a "control" rating?

    It is easy to just acknowledge the figure of speach and move on, whereas, what you generally do is insist someone saying that a particular piece of equipment "has good control" means the person actually thinks the equipment is actually exerting the control.
    I will ask the same. Why can't we acknowledge people have control and move on.
    People have feedback and the power to control things. Blades and rubbers don't.
    BTW, the part about different equipment makes it easier to do different things is good but off topic.
    I thought we were talking about speed and power.

    So, once again, you are not trying to understand what other people are trying to say and instead, when they use certain words that are, for you, buzz words, you insist on interpreting those words how you WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO USE THEM, rather than in the way the person writing intended his words to be understood.
    So you want the myths to persist.

    BTW: I do feel your first post in this thread was fine. You were presenting information and not responding to anyone else in the thread.
    lazer didn't.

    I actually thought it was good. And I do see you did not initiate the conflict.
    Finally! Yet you are writing this to me, not Lazer.

    You are not alone in acting like an argumentative person (you never are, it does take two, but I would like you to learn how to avoid these kinds of flame wars, I really would). Nor do I think Lazer is being civil saying he thinks you are making a fool of yourself. He may believe that. I may think you are both making yourselves look less mature than you should be since you are both elder statesmen. But, I think think you are both behaving with fairly poor manners if I am honest.
    There should be no argument. Arguments require a difference in opinion. There should be no arguments about common facts.

    BTW, this thread has gone off topic and down hill since Zwill and I have established that TT balls don't have power. There are too many false opinions. There are so misconceptions that people can't prove.

    Is it too much to ask people to post a link to prove what they are saying or do opinions rule here and all opinions are equal?

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #28
    It seems to me, Peter, that you should go ahead and make your own TT Forum and make your own rules.

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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwill
    This might be an unpopular opinion but I find H3N or similar rubbers not so good for spin generating, instead if I try to hit the ball like I try to demolish a wall underspin is basically not registering on the rubber and I can just loopkill almost everything. Of course, you need to have good physical condition for this. My height is more on the shorter side, but I use my legs and body and it works really well. On softer sponges and rubbers that bite more I find to execute this kind of shot more like a lucky event rather than something I can use successfully on a regular basis.
    That is my experience too. I thought that it's the spin that makes this shot possible, the ball is fast AND spinny. I only know this shot is best done with hard AND dead tacky rubber. OK, let's define dead/live dimension - it's the bubble size, dead has smaller bubbles, live has bigger bubbles. Soft/hard dimension - no need to define. This shot is better done with H3 H41 than with H37 (dimension soft/hard, both are dead), and it is better done (at least for me) with H3 H41 than with BlueGrip C1 and C2* (dimension dead/live, both have approx. the same hardness). I'd like to understand why. Is it just personal preference?

    * I assume hardness of H41 is somewhere in between C1 (60) and C2 (55), let's say for the sake of the argument it is the same. BlueGrip C1/C2 have still rel. small pores, smaller than Rakza Z, but I didn't test Rakza Z EH, which would be the same hardness as BlueGrip C2. Rakza Z is both softer and livelier than H41, can't use in the example.

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    #30
    I would say dead sponges are "lazy" and have low elasticity. I also found the H3N 40deg BS to be the best for this kind of shot among Chinese rubbers. But unfortunately, after "pounding" the rubber like this it did develop a bubble in the center😥 To me it seems that BS has larger pores than the OS.

    I found the Tibhar K2 very good for this kind of play since I was searching for a rubber that has a bit more speed than H3, has tacky surface and is relatively cheap. K2 sponge has very small pores, similar to OS, but the complete topsheet is much faster. It is 54deg, about 49g cut to Viscaria head size. I would say it spins the ball less than H3 but as I said I don't find H3 to be too spinny anyways and I don't even consider it to be negative. The K2 can be purchased on Aliexpress for ~30USD, so the price is very nice.

    I'm very concerned about the Bluegrip C or Rakza Z and similar type of rubbers that are boosted to oblivion. They are very heavy and once the booster is gone they become disappointing. Not to mention they shrink if you take them off of your racket. K2 smells like it might have some factory boost, but it can't be much since it's not shrinking and I didn't notice much of a performance change. I don't expect that the rubber topsheet will detach like H3 is prone to do so.
    Taking off the glue layer of the K2 is also super easy, just like from a Chinese rubber, the sponge will remain undamaged. To be honest I dislike ESN rubbers mostly because they shrink and don't last long, but K2 seems to have siginficantly better durability than the Rasanters or Bluestorms etc. Not sure if it will last as long as a good H3 OS, since those can be usable for years if it doesn't bubble up.

    Maybe someone knows if Joola Golden Tango or the Bluegrip R or V series is similar to K2 or not, if they are very similar then those might be also excellent choices.

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    Last edited by Zwill; 09-25-2021 at 12:41 PM.

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    #31
    Here's my take on Power vs Speed.

    Power= amount of force than can be generated by the racket to a non-moving/stationary ball if the swing force is constant.
    In game scenarios it's like having a chance ball floating in the air with no spin and minimal speed waiting to be smashed, how well will your racket be able to translate your swing force to the ball when you smash it.

    Speed= amount of speed the racket can be generated to a ball if it is stationary at a certain angle and be hit by a ball travelling at a constant speed.
    In game scenario it's comparable to how fast will the ball return to your opponent side when you block the ball.

    That is the purest definition I can think of Power and Speed, but of course in the real game scenario those attributes mashed up with each other along with the spin of the ball and the effects of the environment. But on the purest of examples, that's how I can think of it.
    Don't forget footwork.

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    #32
    If a good coach simply says Power = Speed + Spin. Somebody is going to jump in and say it's not that simple, it's a multiple of some logs 🙄

    As a spin player, and also an ex-programmer, this sorta implicit language is easy to understand for me. When we talk about More Spin in table tennis, we tend to imply Spin / Speed ratio given roughly the same Power. The higher the ratio is, the more control on placement you have, and the trickier to participate ball's trajectory.

    On the other hand, when we talk about powering up the ball, we sorta understand that we also have to spin it up a lot more rather than just simply increasing Speed. Because in order to keep the ball land CONSISTENTLY, you really have to add spin if you want more speed.

    When we talk about speed, we tend to imply we want to kill fast, we need less consistency. We take the ball earlier, we hit it hard to overcome the incoming spin (to be less impacted by it).

    This is the basic of how manufacturers advertise their products. a spin-based rubber is designed to help you increase spin / speed ratio in various shots MORE EASILY. Not that it can inherently make more spin. And of course to achieve that, the design sacrifices some other things (more often than not also the top end absolute spin), which is why a lot of these rubbers are less spiny than power rubbers at top end. Reviewers keep being surprised by this. But all these things are just subjective, defined based on manufacturers' target customers.

    If you want to use a machine to measure spin or speed potential of a rubber, go ahead, cut out a piece of your tyre and ask Thanos to hit the ball for you.

    Rubbers in the end are just tools. Tools are designed to fit.

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