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    #1

    Return backspin

    I recently started chopping as I got a cheap BTY Matsushita Pro. I put a D09C on FH and Yinhe Neptune (0.7) on BH.
    Nice feeling, light and good consistency. I beat a few guys who used to beat me.

    I got another TSP Curl-P1r (0.3-0.7) and tested on my BH. Man my chops just went out of the line. Return is high and hard to control.

    A guy I beat before just kept giving long backspin to my BH. When chopped with LP, my return had no spin. He then killed the shot. I practiced a lot at home but my chop just returned with no spin.

    I watched the game between Filus and Hairmoto. Filus returned backspin with LP. His return seemed very spinny. How does he do that? Can you point me to the right direction?

    Thank you

    Sorry for asking very basic questions

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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    I
    I got another TSP Curl-P1r (0.3-0.7) and tested on my BH. Man my chops just went out of the line. Return is high and hard to control.

    A guy I beat before just kept giving long backspin to my BH. When chopped with LP, my return had no spin. He then killed the shot. I practiced a lot at home but my chop just returned with no spin.
    If is hard for you change the direction of spin on the ball when playing with LP and thin rubber. It doesn't surprise me that you balls go back without much spin.

    A question I have is are you playing close to the table when you are trying to return the back spin balls? If so you shouldn't try to chop it back because you know the result. When I get back spin to my LPs, usually on a serve, I punch the ball or block is sharply as I don't want the pips to grip. Now the incoming back spin is out going top spin and you can return the ball more aggressively. This is closer to a push blocker technique. I will do this about 90% of the time since I am a better push blocker than chopper.
    Other options require twiddling to get more grip with your inverted rubber or stepping around the ball and looping.

    I use TSP Curl P1-R 1.4-1.7mm, their thickest sponge option. I get pretty good spin with that but I would rarely try to push back a back spin ball unless the ball is close to the net and I can keep it low.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    If is hard for you change the direction of spin on the ball when playing with LP and thin rubber. It doesn't surprise me that you balls go back without much spin.

    A question I have is are you playing close to the table when you are trying to return the back spin balls? If so you shouldn't try to chop it back because you know the result. When I get back spin to my LPs, usually on a serve, I punch the ball or block is sharply as I don't want the pips to grip. Now the incoming back spin is out going top spin and you can return the ball more aggressively. This is closer to a push blocker technique. I will do this about 90% of the time since I am a better push blocker than chopper.
    Other options require twiddling to get more grip with your inverted rubber or stepping around the ball and looping.

    I use TSP Curl P1-R 1.4-1.7mm, their thickest sponge option. I get pretty good spin with that but I would rarely try to push back a back spin ball unless the ball is close to the net and I can keep it low.

    Thank you. I am more a chopper. I don't play well close to table.
    Other members on OOAK also suggests a thicker sponge that can help spin generation.


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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    I don't play well close to table.
    What do you do when someone serves short with underspin? This will occur often so you need a solution.

    Other members on OOAK also suggests a thicker sponge that can help spin generation.
    This is obvious but not a 100% solution since it doesn't solve the problem I mentioned about short serves.

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    #5
    I'm not a defender by any means, but do of course play them. LP players that don't "bump" backspin with their LP do offer (relatively) easy kill options indeed — unless they twiddle.

    In any case, unpredictability matters. Even an occasional dead floater may just break the rhythm every now and then.

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    #6
    I think your long pimple rubber have some grip so maybe you can try to accelerate more to get more spin.

    One option could be to switch side and chop with Inverted as some do but probably very difficult in beginning.

    I also think that if you keep the ball low it will still be somewhat difficult for them to kill the ball. If the ball goes high it is easy.

    if you get better at attacking the ball with forehand you will force the opponent to be more aggressive and push less because he has something to be afraid of.

    Good luck!

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    #7

    Hi SFF,

    This question you ask is also something many inverted players struggle with - how to make heavy, light, and no-spin vs a medium underspin ball. It is about impact and grip. (and obviously bat angle)

    There are a few things you can do to increase your ease of return. Ultimately, it is gunna be up to you to figure out what you want to do when that gives you what advantage... plus you still need to understand how to impact the ball in different ways to get a different result. This is related to your acceleration, grip, and change of grip.

    If you keep the same LP and player is giving you a long underspin, you could simply get back a little more, let the ball fall some more and travel a little further, then when you chop, your ball has a longer distance to travel to net and you can chop more aggressively and still have enough safety.

    Another adjustment is to impact ball at top of bounce, open bat, go forward and down - firm up grip at end, but do not go for anything more than medium pace, emphasis on placement.

    Certain advanced players have the timing and touch to impact the ball right off the bounce or soon after it, they have a very light grip and open bat. Some move down a little at impact, some can loosen grip at impact depending on the ball. When the ball hits the bat right off the bounce, there is maximum vertical energy... when the ball hits the bat and rubs up against the rubber, that vertical energy is to a good deal converted to underspin and some upward vertical, the grip pressure controls how much rebound (forward return energy) and you are talking and about a very light grip here against topspin, a little more against underspin. You experiment what balls do what with your rubber but open bat and take it right off bounce... later do a little tiny bat movement at impact. See what down a or forward do for you with diferent bat angles.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    What do you do when someone serves short with underspin? This will occur often so you need a solution.


    This is obvious but not a 100% solution since it doesn't solve the problem I mentioned about short serves.
    BB is bringing up a very important question all players should ask themselves. Really leads to several questions.

    HOW DO I WANT TO RECEIVE? HOW DO I GET IT SHORT AND TIGHT? LOW AND LONG?

    In my first reply to SFF, at the end, I advocated for impacting the ball right off the bounce with a loose grip. Your LP will do a wonderful job at this. (really it is just making it easier - you are still doing work) Try practicing this and you can develop a short tight return on serve with your LP... and you also have option to change it up with a deep punch well placed taking ball on rise net high.

    Another advantage of off the bounce impact is you are quicker and rob time and opportunity to see what happened - that can pressure opponents. You also have more angles to work with.

    When you face a skilled LP player who can drop it short tight under, or short tight dead, or punch it medium pace anywhere... you tend to quit serving short most of the time... which should give you more of what you want - long and maybe faster balls.
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    #9
    Another way is to open bat, take ball on rise near net or a little below, chop down short vigorous and tighten grip. You will get underspin and your grip tightenening will add forward speed to ball, so work with how much you grip and discover what works for you.
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    #10
    Watch the videos on this recent thread to get some ideas.
    Frictionless Anti players (tabletennisdaily.com)
    It appears that Andrea has added more videos.
    If I was as mobile as Andrea I doubt I would be playing with frictionless anti.
    It is the fact that Andrea is mobile that the anti works for him since he doesn't rely on the anti for winning points.
    Below is match between two very good players. The anti player would like to block short but his opponent stays close to the table and if very quick.
    Some long pip push blocking techniques. The technique is good but I would be more impressed if rallies weren't cherry picked. Personally, I prefer playing with LP over anti. Anti isn't tricky. LPs will act differently depending on whether you punch through the ball without bending the pips or swiping the ball and bending the pips. You can top spin a ball if you want with LPs.




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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    I recently started chopping as I got a cheap BTY Matsushita Pro. I put a D09C on FH and Yinhe Neptune (0.7) on BH.
    Nice feeling, light and good consistency. I beat a few guys who used to beat me.

    I got another TSP Curl-P1r (0.3-0.7) and tested on my BH. Man my chops just went out of the line. Return is high and hard to control.

    A guy I beat before just kept giving long backspin to my BH. When chopped with LP, my return had no spin. He then killed the shot. I practiced a lot at home but my chop just returned with no spin.

    I watched the game between Filus and Hairmoto. Filus returned backspin with LP. His return seemed very spinny. How does he do that? Can you point me to the right direction?

    Thank you

    Sorry for asking very basic questions

    My experience with chopper is so different compared to your description. My chopper present me with massive amount of backspin and I literally am panting with exhaustion returning his BH with my FH loop continuously.

    Chopping when done properly should come back with massive backspin. There are so many YT videos of chopper such as Hou Yingchou, Ma Te et al.

    I don't know, could it be that the thread-starter confuses the term pushing with chopping? Coz, if it is a real chop then there should be massive amount of backspin, however, if the player is using a OX LP and is pushing, then that is a different story altogether.




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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    What do you do when someone serves short with underspin? This will occur often so you need a solution.
    I either returned a very dead low ball, or chop long. But of course the long ball has no spin and pose no threat, unless I can chop it very long.
    This is obvious but not a 100% solution since it doesn't solve the problem I mentioned about short serves.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    I'm not a defender by any means, but do of course play them. LP players that don't "bump" backspin with their LP do offer (relatively) easy kill options indeed — unless they twiddle.

    In any case, unpredictability matters. Even an occasional dead floater may just break the rhythm every now and then.
    That's true. Unpredictability, I need to practice on that.

    I watched Ti Long's channel. He showed how to do a long push with long pip. It is a deadly weapon.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    I think your long pimple rubber have some grip so maybe you can try to accelerate more to get more spin.

    One option could be to switch side and chop with Inverted as some do but probably very difficult in beginning.

    I also think that if you keep the ball low it will still be somewhat difficult for them to kill the ball. If the ball goes high it is easy.

    if you get better at attacking the ball with forehand you will force the opponent to be more aggressive and push less because he has something to be afraid of.

    Good luck!

    I am using Neptune which is very easy to use. I chop really well away from the table. Apparently it's one of the least frictional LP that's why it's easy to use.


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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte

    Hi SFF,

    This question you ask is also something many inverted players struggle with - how to make heavy, light, and no-spin vs a medium underspin ball. It is about impact and grip. (and obviously bat angle)

    There are a few things you can do to increase your ease of return. Ultimately, it is gunna be up to you to figure out what you want to do when that gives you what advantage... plus you still need to understand how to impact the ball in different ways to get a different result. This is related to your acceleration, grip, and change of grip.

    If you keep the same LP and player is giving you a long underspin, you could simply get back a little more, let the ball fall some more and travel a little further, then when you chop, your ball has a longer distance to travel to net and you can chop more aggressively and still have enough safety.

    Another adjustment is to impact ball at top of bounce, open bat, go forward and down - firm up grip at end, but do not go for anything more than medium pace, emphasis on placement.

    Certain advanced players have the timing and touch to impact the ball right off the bounce or soon after it, they have a very light grip and open bat. Some move down a little at impact, some can loosen grip at impact depending on the ball. When the ball hits the bat right off the bounce, there is maximum vertical energy... when the ball hits the bat and rubs up against the rubber, that vertical energy is to a good deal converted to underspin and some upward vertical, the grip pressure controls how much rebound (forward return energy) and you are talking and about a very light grip here against topspin, a little more against underspin. You experiment what balls do what with your rubber but open bat and take it right off bounce... later do a little tiny bat movement at impact. See what down a or forward do for you with diferent bat angles.

    I know a LP player who pushes all the time. His push is long, low and dead. It's a very deadly weapon and I shall practice that, although I prefer to play away from the table.


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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo

    My experience with chopper is so different compared to your description. My chopper present me with massive amount of backspin and I literally am panting with exhaustion returning his BH with my FH loop continuously.

    Chopping when done properly should come back with massive backspin. There are so many YT videos of chopper such as Hou Yingchou, Ma Te et al.

    I don't know, could it be that the thread-starter confuses the term pushing with chopping? Coz, if it is a real chop then there should be massive amount of backspin, however, if the player is using a OX LP and is pushing, then that is a different story altogether.


    When my opponent gives me a topspin I can chop back with a very heavy backspin. That's not a problem. The problem is when my opponent gives me a backspin.


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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib

    When my opponent gives me a topspin I can chop back with a very heavy backspin. That's not a problem. The problem is when my opponent gives me a backspin.

    If opponent gives you a backspin and you return with a OX LP push, you will give your offensive opponent a topspin return, and you know what a typical offensive player will do next...

    If he pushes long, most OX LP player I see will block and change direction to make it hard for offensive opponent to attack. I rarely see these OX LP player push back. Or else they twiddle to the inverted side and push back so that they can remain in play and wait for next opportunity.

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    #18
    Depending on how early LP player takes the underspin ball, depending on grip, depending on pace and spin of incoming ball,, depending on impact, an LP player can return with any spin ranging from light medium underpin to light topspin.

    It is not automatic that it will go back as light topspin, but yes, many players preference is to impact the ball in a way to continue spin to an extent.



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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    That's true. Unpredictability, I need to practice on that.

    I watched Ti Long's channel. He showed how to do a long push with long pip. It is a deadly weapon.

    This is easier said than done.
    There is very little margin of error between getting the ball over the net and being able to keep it on the table.
    We can see the trajectory is flat except for gravity.
    Again, I more impressed to watch real play where the serves are random.
    LPs don't have much friction but there is still some even though he is bumping the ball back.
    Also, he isn't addressing short back spins, ghost servers, to the LP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    I either returned a very dead low ball, or chop long. But of course the long ball has no spin and pose no threat, unless I can chop it very long.
    Every rally begins with a serve and return. You are lucky if the opponent will serve long and fast so you can transition into your chopping game. Most rallies will start in more of a push blocker mode.
    It is difficult to return a back spin ball as a dead ball. How do you neutralize the spin? The ball will go back as a slow topspin and not enough spin or speed to have a noticeable Magnus effect. Also, if the serve is low you need to hit the ball up to get it over the net. There is a high chance of hitting the ball up too high or too long.
    This requires having just the right touch. It just takes practice.

    Here is a video of me returning back spin balls to my LP. The back spin serves aren't extremely spinny or low so they are relatively easy to handle. My opponent's serves are mostly the same with an occasional fast serve. I don't worry too much about the spin on the ball. I just bump it trying to keep the ball low and place it. The big thing is to vary where you hit the return.
    https://deltamotion.com/peter/TableT...0LP%202min.mp4
    I am playing push blocker style with my push blocker paddle with GD Talon 0X on a Firewall+
    I am also relatively fresh as we just got started and my opponent hadn't got use to the LPs yet.

    I think I posted those videos in post #10 in the wrong thread.

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    #20
    I think that LP can impart some spin on a no spin ball, but this is fairly limited as Der says.
    LP characteristic is to rely on opponent’s spin and send it back to them.
    So yep, a backspin serve returned by LP will go back with topspin, the spin hasn’t changed, just the direction the ball travels in.
    The push / block shots I have encountered by LP players are sort of unnerving when you first see them!! How can a almost vertical bat face return a backspin serve I was thinking!!!
    So, I would think that closing the bat face will help keep the ball lower when receiving the backspin serves, the other grip and plane of stroke techniques Der talks about will also help, but I have no experience of how these strokes are achieved, as I don’t play with LPs.
    Once you get the hang of the push/blocking shots, receiving the shorter backspin serves, then your opponent will have to deal with some low skidding returns with some topspin on them, which can be pretty hard to deal with especially when the receives are well placed.

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