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    #1

    Anti or Long Pips against 2,000+ USATT players?

    I've been playing with long pips for the past 2-3 years, but am wondering if anti would not be better suited to my game, and create the opportunities I'm looking for. I play with a modified seemlier grip, and twiddle in most rallies. My principle strength would be my forehand smash (flat hit), so my goal is to set this up wherever possible.

    I am primarily interested in what setup will be more effective against 2,000-2,200 players. There won't be cheap points earned with either, as most at that level can handle both. So I'm more interested in knowing whether anti or long pips will be better for setting up my forehand attacks, and which of the two (anti or long pips) do 2,000+ players dislike the most. I understand that a lot of training is required to be effective with either...

    Also, any shot sequences or combinations you find particularly effective would be appreciated.

    Thanks for any help.

  2. Der_Echte is offline
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    #2
    I have seen some players over 60 yrs old play competitively vs the 2000 USATT level California crowd with Anti.

    These players are obviosuly not athletic, but they have touch and can twiddle. Can be unpredictable. Can attack with both anti and inverted. Setup dead balls to hit. Can handle spinny slow loops. Can place the ball and make opponent take the risks and fail under pressure. Can putaway high balls on their dead push.

    Regardless of equipment, being able to do these things counts a lot more than the specific euipment or grip.
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    I have seen some players over 60 yrs old play competitively vs the 2000 USATT level California crowd with Anti.

    These players are obviosuly not athletic, but they have touch and can twiddle. Can be unpredictable. Can attack with both anti and inverted. Setup dead balls to hit. Can handle spinny slow loops. Can place the ball and make opponent take the risks and fail under pressure. Can putaway high balls on their dead push.

    Regardless of equipment, being able to do these things counts a lot more than the specific equipment or grip.

    I agree with everything you say here. I'm just curious if 2000+ players in general have a bit more difficulty playing against long pips or anti. Long pips has more variety, but perhaps they face less players using anti, and as a result are less comfortable playing against that. Also, from a novice's perspective (mine), it seems that anti is a lot easier to control and place the ball exactly where you want.


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    #4
    I would chose LP over anti or frictionless anti. Anti is easier to play with and against. The rubber is consistent or should be. Pips are different. They can seem to be almost frictionless is you bump through the ball without bending the pips or your can side swipe or chop to bend the pips to get more friction and spin the ball some. Now about bumping the ball back. I had a 1 hour lesson with Sean O'Neil when I was in my LP 0X phase. He showed me that he could spin the ball off my LP 0X paddle it I just tried to bump is loops back. What was happening is that his top spin was so strong that it bent my pips anyway even though I was just bumping the ball back. The cure was to move the paddle down while making contact. This kind of the opposite of lifted chopped balls where the paddle needs to match the tangential surface speed of the ball. BTW, Sean O'Neil went through a chopping phase.

  5. Der_Echte is offline
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher

    I agree with everything you say here. I'm just curious if 2000+ players in general have a bit more difficulty playing against long pips or anti. Long pips has more variety, but perhaps they face less players using anti, and as a result are less comfortable playing against that. Also, from a novice's perspective (mine), it seems that anti is a lot easier to control and place the ball exactly where you want.

    You ask several good questions here and make an obsevation I believe pretty much the opposite (but it doesn't mean you are wrong, we can both see it our way)

    2000 is a level pretty much just breaking into the top ten percent of all players, but it isn't a lever of world beaters. You have 2000 who have strengths in different things. Some can play bang-bang fast close to table. Some are real good vs a medium pace dead ball (pretty much an anti players attacking shot with anti. Some are real patient and are not fooled by slowing it down. Some just know how to setup a predictable return, look for it, then go for it against that ball time and time again until player shows he can stop that.

    That is one long-winded paragraph to say that how well a player does vs anti or LP is gunna vary based on what the 2000 player does well. I can say that many 2000 players struggle vs shots from LP or anti that are taken quickly and hit to the middle unpredictable. Predictably (pun fully intended) that shot can trouble about any player.

    As for comfort, again, it is up to what the 2000 player does well. Myself, I do exceeedingly well vs LP players who do not rush me, even if they are a level or two better. I had a great LP player 2200+ level (Means he should smoke me 11-6 on average) on the ropes in a sanctioned tourney I led 2-1 5-2 before he figured out how to serve. I won vs a 2100 LP player who killed all my other 2000+ team mates. I scared the crap outta a 60 yr old LP legend lost 1-3 in real close games had him sweating hard too. VS the unpredictable hitting anti crowd at 2000 level, I really have to pay attention to probe/discover what works and be efficient and ruthless, or down I will go. VS the 2000 anti crowd that doesn'r rush me, I am not pressured.

    As one who helps players out a lot, I see many players adapt and play a higher lever faster with LP by a country mile. It desn't mean one cannot learn anti, indeed the ones who stick with it and learn how to attack all spins of balls and also control serve get a higher level later. However, that takes a lot more time to advance a couple levels than it dos with LP in the players I have seen trying it out.
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I would chose LP over anti or frictionless anti. Anti is easier to play with and against. The rubber is consistent or should be. Pips are different. They can seem to be almost frictionless is you bump through the ball without bending the pips or your can side swipe or chop to bend the pips to get more friction and spin the ball some. Now about bumping the ball back. I had a 1 hour lesson with Sean O'Neil when I was in my LP 0X phase. He showed me that he could spin the ball off my LP 0X paddle it I just tried to bump is loops back. What was happening is that his top spin was so strong that it bent my pips anyway even though I was just bumping the ball back. The cure was to move the paddle down while making contact. This kind of the opposite of lifted chopped balls where the paddle needs to match the tangential surface speed of the ball. BTW, Sean O'Neil went through a chopping phase.

    I think anti has more attacking capability than OX LP against more kinds of spin balls, therefore a skilled player could do more and in theory, have a few more ways to make winning points. Anti also has excellent serve receive control if you get close enough and use the right grip pressure at impact.

    On the face of things, one SHOULD be able to learn more and faster than LP, but it does take longer to learn how to be troubling with anti. So many players can slap on some OX LP, learn how to loosen grip some and just get the bat there... and whammo !!! some ofensive wannabe players suddenly forgot their spin and make errors. That aspect alone is appealing to man LP players, some like attacking high balls or "safe" underspin balls with pips and a good chumk of 2000 players may not have had a lot of time vs such players, some have.

    I see players learn real good touch off bounce with LP and MP and can trouble some advanced attacking players.

    JZ in the Sacramento area has become such a player as he learned this touch and style from a local 65+ yr old C-Pen player of the same style.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte

    I think anti has more attacking capability than OX LP against more kinds of spin balls


    They are the same in so many ways but anti has a smooth surface. It plays more consistently than LP because LPs have pips that bend.
    The anti player can't do much of anything about the spin. Chopping is futile. The anti player can make a chopping stroke but it won't do much unless using 2mm Yasaka Anti Power which feels mushy to me.

    therefore a skilled player could do more and in theory, have a few more ways to make winning points. Anti also has excellent serve receive control if you get close enough and use the right grip pressure at impact.
    I think you need to test your theory.

    On the face of things, one SHOULD be able to learn more and faster than LP,
    Yes, because it doesn't have pips that bend.

    but it does take longer to learn how to be troubling with anti.
    Yes, it is hard to be troubling with anti. You can't do much with it.

    So many players can slap on some OX LP, learn how to loosen grip some and just get the bat there... and whammo !!! some ofensive wannabe players suddenly forgot their spin and make errors.
    It isn't quite that simple.
    Noob LP and anti player will make a lot of unforced errors until they get the feel of the anti or LP vs inverted.
    I do agree that many people don't play against LP or anti players so they lose the first couple of games in a match before they adapt if ever.

    That aspect alone is appealing to man LP players, some like attacking high balls or "safe" underspin balls with pips and a good chumk of 2000 players may not have had a lot of time vs such players, some have.
    Yes, but with anti it is the same.
    With both anti and LP one is hoping to make the opponent worry about the "spin reversal" and FUD thus slow the game down.
    The other item is hitting the ball off the bounce and placement do the opponent doesn't have time to make a good shot.
    However, the anti is more predictable than LP and less flexible.

    The OP should look up some Seemiller games on YouTube. I should have thought about that before.











    I see players learn real good touch off bounce with LP and MP and can trouble some advanced attacking players.

    JZ in the Sacramento area has become such a player as he learned this touch and style from a local 65+ yr old C-Pen player of the same style.

    [/quote]

  8. PushSmasher is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    You ask several good questions here and make an observation I believe pretty much the opposite (but it doesn't mean you are wrong, we can both see it our way)

    2000 is a level pretty much just breaking into the top ten percent of all players, but it isn't a lever of world beaters. You have 2000 who have strengths in different things. Some can play bang-bang fast close to table. Some are real good vs a medium pace dead ball (pretty much an anti players attacking shot with anti. Some are real patient and are not fooled by slowing it down. Some just know how to setup a predictable return, look for it, then go for it against that ball time and time again until player shows he can stop that.
    Thanks again for some great observations and insight. My saying that long pips has more variety is a reflection of me not having a clue what can be done with anti. But I have to tell you I am vey happy to hear you say that. With long pips, I have worked out shot sequences for the different aspects of my game, but in just playing with anti this past week, I feel very vulnerable returning serve with anti and in other areas, as I don't know what to do yet. Having said that, last night I saw it's potential in one very important area for me: I was able to block very short (double bounce) fast loops from a 2200 player, which allowed me to then attack his week return.

    I have found the same thing you mention regarding ones in the 2000 level, that some are really bothered by my pips, whereas others have perhaps played a lot more against them in their own clubs and are more comfortable. I played a tournament this past weekend and beat a player rated 1980 as he had a lot of difficulty against the pips. Having said that, my goal is in a couple of years to play at a 2100+ level, so I don't mind putting in the hours and training to get proficient using one or the other.

    Thanks for your input. Time for me to start studying anti videos to learn the strokes and options

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