New FH Rubber - Suggests?

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OP, if you still have any doubts, the first rubble I slapped on FH of the QUARTER POUNDDER DELUXE blade, which is the blade I used in my sig before my current, the MASS ANNIHILLATION UNIT, I slapped on... YOU GUESSED IT... FX-P.

When I spank that puppy with that FH, that dog really barks. (An American expression for it really performed well)

No dogs were harmed in the practice or match play using either the Quarter Pounder Deluxe or the Mass Annihillation Unit... but there were a few players who were butt-sore. Nah, not really, this tourney everyone was a great sport - the best I ever saw at the tourney.
 
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I don't agree on FX-p for forehand, it's too soft for learning to play forward with the entire body and with open racket angle and also not good for counter spinning with speed and spin. Long strokes will not be rewarded by the rubber, it's more suitable to quick short explosive movements. It will hinder your development.

Middle of the road fastarc g-1 is still the correct way to go imo.
 
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I don't agree on FX-p for forehand, it's too soft for learning to play forward with the entire body and with open racket angle and also not good for counter spinning with speed and spin. Long strokes will not be rewarded by the rubber, it's more suitable to quick short explosive movements. It will hinder your development.Middle of the road fastarc g-1 is still the correct way to go imo.
Based on watching David's video, based on knowing Der and several others who used it, based on the idea that Lebesson won the European Championships with FXP on his racket on both sides, and based on using it whenever I feel like, since it is on my BH side, I would respectfully disagree.

But we both have a right to our own opinions. And David has the right to choose the rubber he wants. And my reason for thinking a softer rubber like that would be good for DAVID's FH is specifically the things I see in his video about how he contacts the ball and his precision with how he contacts the ball; how David would benefit from becoming more precise with the depth of contact he makes.

 
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Nittaku G-1 have a quite hard surface and the sponge isn't the softest either.It's a demanding rubber, where you get what you put on, but not a easy to play one ( been using it for years).On the other side, we have options, without moving to soft sponges that are nice and not that demanding, for example Xiom Vega Pro and Yasaka Rakza 7.From my point of view, they are nice responsive rubbers and easy to play with, not very sensitive to incomig spin and good for blocking and counter looping.If a 12 years old with 1 year of training (6h every week) can handle it, I'm sure that you will.About the FX-P, I think that Carl is perfectly right in his argument, but I know what Zeen says and both being correct for me, my recommendation is to buy a soft rubber, use it untill is done (won't be more than 3 months) and then jump to something like Razka 7 or Vega Pro.
 
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When frustrated when I had a hard time mimicking another’s moves, my sensei took me apart, had me sit down, and impressed upon me that there is never just one path to take.

All approaches mentioned have merit and are viable.

Give that man a cookie. Looping with a fully extended arm is hard and exhausting, and you have super long arms, so the effect is exaggerated. If your coach thinks that you can do it go for it. After COVID I had to change my approach. Looping with a full arm exhausts me way too much. I highly recommend trying different approaches during your training. Checking which strategy gives you the most repeatability. If you can loop 50 balls consecutively with a full arm full power good for you. If you don't try different approaches until you can.

You mentioned you want to participate in National Championship. I presume that will be a lot of stress for you. I think that in these conditions being consistent is the most single important thing. Maybe not focusing on power and focusing on serving spinny and consistent balls is the way to go? I dunno it is your decision. But I think this is something you need to consider.

Your Loop vs Underspin is a bit sudden. You might want to work on that part of your game. Lengthening and smooth out that stroke might give you some benefit.

 
so, hello guys. Well, some points:

1- Im started training the full arm loop because i like this, and my coach suggested me to practice this. In the past with other coach, i talked about this with him and he say: "no, its difficult, you will learn short compact stroke!". And I learned :) But, other coach arrived and my firts practices with him he showed the more full stroke and teached me. And is not a full arm like chinese players, i use forearm acceleration and contraction. And Im working on consistence, especially on loop vs underspin.

2- I practice in a group with focus on national competitions and plans of a profissional national carrer. so the National Championship is not stress for me, we always practice for this, we are prepared.

3- Yeah, i have many problems in short game and consistence, but if you look to original post, i started practice more, 4 hours per day on the group with 100% presence. And I will work hard guys!
 
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Just a note: you say you want to feel the ball better but you want to use fairly hard rubbers. Usually softer rubbers allow you to feel the ball better and give a higher window for error so, are more forgiving in offensive play.

How should softer rubbers do that? Rubbers act as springs and dampers as in a car's suspension. Drive around in a sportscar and you will feel nearly each penny/cent/road marking on the street but you won't do (at least much more attenuated) when driving a (typical) family sedan.
So, either you want a rubber that lets you feel better and allows you more control......or, you want a hard rubber. You will have to make up your mind on that issue.

Based on seeing some of your match, you can make the shots, but your consistency is an issue, your precision on contact. Harder rubbers make that harder. Softer rubbers would help you.

Somewhat, they will help because it's easier to generate spin (and therefore get a more consistent arc/ball trajectory) and on the other hand will make it harder because they usually have a more pronounced catapult effect and/or are in general more non-linear.

So who's right?

 
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Not sure the springs in a car analogy works. Metal springs are metal. Metal conducts vibrations very well. a more rigid spring will still conduct vibrations very clearly.

Thicker sponge is denser. More material to dampen the vibrations of the blade. And of course we know that what you feel when you think you feel the ball is not the ball. You are feeling the vibrations of the blade. So, different from the functions of springs on a car.

I am not sure the catapult idea hold much water either. Does T05fx have more spring than T05? I would say the rebound of T05 is faster (happens within a shorter duration of time), and probably the rebound has more force to it than the rebound of T05fx. But how the rebound is used depends on how you contact the ball.

So, the issue with rebound is, do you use the rubber and control how the rebound impacts your shots or does the rebound mess with you. And that is determined by your skill in how you touch the ball.

Either way, for offensive shots, softer rubbers provide a larger window for error and require less skill to use and help you develop the skills needed to use harder rubber. Harder rubber is harder to use because it requires a higher skill level, a higher level of precision in how you touch the ball on your shots.

This is why Andro made that Rasanter add with the pro holding the R53 and the caption is "Made For Me" and then he is holding the R45 and the caption is "Made For You."

Short game....it is true that hard, tacky rubbers are easier to use in short game (not as much for hard Euro rubbers though). But short game just requires using touch. It can be developed well with any rubber. Part of the issue with all of this is learning how to touch the ball precisely whether for short game or for offensive game. How you touch the ball is very important. With harder rubbers it is harder to control how much you let the ball sink into the rubber on big impact shots. This is because, to get it to sink in deeper without hitting wood takes much more impact. And if you are consistently letting the ball bang into the wood while thinking you are making good, deep contact, you can make that mistake for a long time without realizing why you are having trouble controling where your shots are going.

For offensive shots, harder rubbers require you have higher level skills. Denser sponge dampens more of the vibrations from the wood.

You can like one or the other. I don't really care. But if you are of a level to use a harder sponge and you are recommending that to someone who makes a lot of small mistakes on how they contact the ball without watching how they contact the ball, maybe you are not seeing what the person in front of you actually needs.
 
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This is why Andro made that Rasanter add with the pro holding the R53 and the caption is "Made For Me" and then he is holding the R45 and the caption is "Made For You."
I think it was R48. Just a nitpick.


BTW I think that you have kind of given the best advice possible. Whatever the rubber, you need to be able to control it, and it can be done with every rubber.

I think that a FH looping rubber staple is either sticky hard rubber or ~48 degrees grippy rubber. Some prefer stiff top sheets some prefer springy top sheets, but regarding the sponge, most people I know play with 48-50 degrees sponge rubber on FH (if we are talking about grippy top sheets).

The 53 El Pro is a very very hard rubber to play with. I would still suggest playing with as many rubbers as possible and then picking.

 
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I think it was R48. Just a nitpick.
I do know they had the add with R48 when R48 first came out. But I am looking at the side of my screen and the add is right there with R45. So, if you want to nip-pick R45. [See next post for photo. Site would not let me add photo to this post].

As far as hardness of rubber, I am confident Emmanuel Lebesson was better than most people on the forum when he won the 2016 European Championships with FXP on BOTH SIDES. So, somehow, he wasn't looking at your rules. And I know Der_Echte's FH is darn good and he used FXS for quite a long time and for years talked about how and why he liked soft rubbers for FH.

Alex Perez is a 2500 level player who lives in NYC and he uses really soft rubbers. I am confident he is also decently higher level than most of the forum. So, the idea that those rules are actually rules seems really sill to me. But I do recognize that the trend for TT players these days is to convince themself that they need hard rubbers for FH. I can use hard. I am fine with lots of things. But people whose technique really needs refining are making it harder on themselves when they force themselves to try and use hard, unforgiving rubbers while not being able to duplicate precise contact consistently.

 
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Not sure the springs in a car analogy works. Metal springs are metal. Metal conducts vibrations very well. a more rigid spring will still conduct vibrations very clearly.

...

I am not sure the catapult idea hold much water either. Does T05fx have more spring than T05? I would say the rebound of T05 is faster (happens within a shorter duration of time), and probably the rebound has more force to it than the rebound of T05fx. But how the rebound is used depends on how you contact the ball.
Not necessarily more catapult/speed but earlier/on lower impact shots.
So, the issue with rebound is, do you use the rubber and control how the rebound impacts your shots or does the rebound mess with you. And that is determined by your skill in how you touch the ball.

...

For offensive shots, harder rubbers require you have higher level skills. Denser sponge dampens more of the vibrations from the wood.

Denser sponge = more weight and that's quite typical for modern rubbers. Even an Evolution FX-S can weigh anything between 42g and 48g cut (around the same as a H3)...
You can like one or the other. I don't really care. But if you are of a level to use a harder sponge and you are recommending that to someone who makes a lot of small mistakes on how they contact the ball without watching how they contact the ball, maybe you are not seeing what the person in front of you actually needs.

Maybe I've not seen every detail but given that davizoosk is training 4hrs a day for 4/5 days a week (and assuming that they do random drills and/or multiball) I would use a fail fast approach: Try to get the contact and ball tracking right using a hard rubber that does not mask small errors (not a hard, springy rubber like the Gewo Nexxus Pro 53 EL Hard but also not something as soft as FX-S) . That's what I like about H3 and the like: I don't have to guess/figure out if I made an error or if it was some unexpected behavior of the rubber that I have to take into account. I can be sure that I made the error and try to correct it.
If this approach fails and this should be seen quite fast given the amount of training then use softer rubbers (and if softer rubbers fit better to the overall style). The drills to get contact and tracking right are the same anyway but some people learn quicker if the goal is more challenging to reach others if the goal is less challenging and/or the path to reach it longer and less steep.
Another point may be durability (still assuming drills and multiball): With this kind of usage I think that ESN rubbers will only last for maybe two, three weeks (especially the heavily factory boosted rubbers like the Evolutions)...

 
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UpSideDownCarl said:
short game just requires using touch. It can be developed well with any rubber.

Same with looping. Same with any stroke, and any (inverted) rubber. imo it makes sense to use a rubber that advantages the skill you personally have more trouble with, so using a hard sponge to make short touch easier if your rally strokes are relatively a lot better than your short game. Or vice versa. But you could equally make the 'strengthen a strength' argument and try to design your game tactically to minimize short play, or whatever is your weak point. There is no free lunch whatever you do.

 
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Denser sponge = more weight and that's quite typical for modern rubbers. Even an Evolution FX-S can weigh anything between 42g and 48g cut (around the same as a H3)...

I sometimes weighed my cut rubbers... FX-S cut for my average sized blades weighed pretty much 45 or 46 grams pretty conistently. I never really considered that a heavy weight.

I believe distribution and balance point of the weight are a lot more important than a number some say low or high. This is why I get away with adding weight low to make total what would seem REDICULOUS high number, but in practice, under triple blind tests with unsuspecting TTD memebrs, proves to be practical and functional.
 
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I do know they had the add with R48 when R48 first came out. But I am looking at the side of my screen and the add is right there with R45. So, if you want to nip-pick R45. [See next post for photo. Site would not let me add photo to this post].

As far as hardness of rubber, I am confident Emmanuel Lebesson was better than most people on the forum when he won the 2016 European Championships with FXP on BOTH SIDES. So, somehow, he wasn't looking at your rules. And I know Der_Echte's FH is darn good and he used FXS for quite a long time and for years talked about how and why he liked soft rubbers for FH.

Alex Perez is a 2500 level player who lives in NYC and he uses really soft rubbers. I am confident he is also decently higher level than most of the forum. So, the idea that those rules are actually rules seems really sill to me. But I do recognize that the trend for TT players these days is to convince themself that they need hard rubbers for FH. I can use hard. I am fine with lots of things. But people whose technique really needs refining are making it harder on themselves when they force themselves to try and use hard, unforgiving rubbers while not being able to duplicate precise contact consistently.

I would hate to be the one to break it to your assessment of my Forehand Carl, especially since I am almost always very reluctant to state that my level is anywhere close to my level in whatever I dicuss, especially when I roll into NYC, but my FH has gotten a lot better in several ways since you saw me. I think I could still take whatever bat you have with FX-P on it and make that puppy bark pretty loud, to make the rest of the hall THINK you illegally glued your bat, when in reality, all I did was strike the ball hard enough with that soft rubber to make a similar sound to glued rubber being used.

I still am inclined to spin first, but I solid strike the bal a little more than before and you would approve of the message.

FX-P on an offensive blade is capable of doing a lot of damage. It is really the operator impacting and doing the damage, but we all know what I mean when I say that.
 
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I sometimes weighed my cut rubbers... FX-S cut for my average sized blades weighed pretty much 45 or 46 grams pretty conistently. I never really considered that a heavy weight.

I believe distribution and balance point of the weight are a lot more important than a number some say low or high. This is why I get away with adding weight low to make total what would seem REDICULOUS high number, but in practice, under triple blind tests with unsuspecting TTD memebrs, proves to be practical and functional.

Definitely. Weight distribution is very important. That's why I have some blades where I (removed and) filled the handle or just glued some coins to the end of the handle ;) But I don't rework the handle just to test some rubbers especially these overweight hybrid rubbers (Codexx EL Pro, BlueGrip C2 or the like, Hurricane 8 is also in that range, add around 10g to 20g to the head when played on both sides compared to my H3 setups...)

 
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I would hate to be the one to break it to your assessment of my Forehand Carl, especially since I am almost always very reluctant to state that my level is anywhere close to my level in whatever I dicuss, especially when I roll into NYC, but my FH has gotten a lot better in several ways since you saw me. I think I could still take whatever bat you have with FX-P on it and make that puppy bark pretty loud, to make the rest of the hall THINK you illegally glued your bat, when in reality, all I did was strike the ball hard enough with that soft rubber to make a similar sound to glued rubber being used.

I still am inclined to spin first, but I solid strike the bal a little more than before and you would approve of the message.

FX-P on an offensive blade is capable of doing a lot of damage. It is really the operator impacting and doing the damage, but we all know what I mean when I say that.
Yep. I trust what you are telling me. It has been quite a while since we have gotten to hang. But, as a decent level player, with pretty good fundamentals, and a decently powerful FH back then, you still felt that soft rubbers were better for your FH than harder rubbers.

Any chance you can explain why, for you, you felt that softer rubbers, until fairly recently, were better for you than harder?

 
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Any chance you can explain why, for you, you felt that softer rubbers, until fairly recently, were better for you than harder?

This is a fair question.

I knew I could play a little more powerfully on my big strikes with a firmer sponge of the same model of rubber, but I simply wasn't good enough.

What does that mean ? (not good enough) Well, I mean that I did NOT yet at the time have a consistent enough striking of the ball in the middle of the impact zone with control of depth of impact. Firmer sponged rubbers force you to strike with better fundamentals. I just did not believe I had thise fundamentals developed enough to make better use of a firmer sponged rubber and not give away points.

When MX-K came out, I was a little better and moved to mid-firm 47 degree MX-K. Played a year plus with that in practice (did tourneys with FX-S of T05FX) and my striking got better. Coached a Pastor at the Russian Church where we play 1-2 times a week and it was more reps and more time articulating doing the things that result in good shots... that helped a lot too.

Basically, I got good enough on my control of the strike zone and depth of impact to make use of firmer sponged rubber... plus Etika topsheet is pretty supple, so overall, it doesn't play as hard as a 51 degree rubber.
 
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