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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ttarc
    and 2. "... aim straight forward, no trajectory necessary.
    ???. The trajectory is everything! The trajectory determines if you hit the target.

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    #42
    So today I switched my forehand grip to the same as backhand grip as many suggested. And I tried to snap my elbow more. At first, it felt really unnatural and it made my arm feel really tight and tired quickly. By the end of the session, I was starting to feel more accustomed to the grip.

    I did notice a few immediate benefits. This grip seems to generate a lot more spin, so it made my forehand loop more consistent. Several balls that I felt I overhit ended up spinning down into the table to my surprise. Im not sure if it generate more power or not, as I still dont quite feel used to it. And my timing of the elbow snap might still be off. However, one guy who I regularly play with said that my power felt overwhelming and kept asking if I changed rackets. In fact I was just using my cheap $30 Aliexpress racket. ($20 blade, $5 rubbers)

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    #43


    When I look at the video, the forehand grip still looks a little odd to me. What do you guys think? I am purposely trying to hold it as the same grip I use on backhand, but maybe I am subconsciously moving the grip a little.Â

    But one good thing is that my elbow does look to be a lot more bent than before.

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    Last edited by Michael Zhuang; 10-13-2021 at 05:58 AM.

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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto
    @Zeio, ould you elaborate a little bit more about the hit brushing and brush hitting? I don't quite understand the concept.
    That one is a little lost in translation. In Chinese, the two terms commonly used are 先打後摩 and 先摩後打, where 摩 is commonly written as 磨, a variant form of the same word. Those two terms translate to English as "hit first, then brush" and "brush first, then hit", respectively. Due to space constraint, I shortened them to hit-and-brush and brush-and-hit in the sub.

    Needless to say, people have been quick to point out that the lower limit of human reaction time and dwell time make either scenario outright impossible. However, the earliest instance of the concept that I could locate is aware of those issues, doesn't stress one over the other or specifies which one comes first, but merely promotes 打摩結合(combined hitting and brushing) and names this type of loop 打摩式弧圈, literally "hit-brush type loop".

    And so, that topic has gone on to become one of the longest-standing debates of table tennis. AFAIK, discussion has been on and off on various Chinese forums for at least 20 years. The earliest internet thread, "打摩式弧圈球技术及应用"(the technique and application of hit-brush type loop), was started by user 虎虎虎(tigertigertiger) in 5/2001 on Table Tennis Homeland, one of the oldest Chinese table tennis forums. The earliest instance in the Chinese magazine Table Tennis World dates back to the article "正手拉球de发力方法"(method of force generation for the forehand loop) by Zhang Xiaopeng in volume 4, 2002. See quotes below.
    打摩式弧圈球技术及应用

    随着乒乓球对抗力量和速度的日益加强,单纯以摩擦为主撞击为辅的弧圈球越来越为人所适应;如果打出的弧圈球没有一定的力量和速度,甚至会被对方反拉!
    解决的办法并不是增加撞击减少摩擦(那是发力攻),而是增加撞击的同时保持原有弧圈的摩擦,这就是打摩式弧圈球。从中我们看到:传统弧圈以摩擦为主;发力攻以撞击为主;打摩式弧圈是既撞击又摩擦;所以说打摩式弧圈的手臂发力与前两者不同,比前两者更加复杂且难以掌握。只有在掌握了前两者以后,才有可能有手感去练习打摩式弧圈。
    打摩式弧圈的发力顺序:发挥整个大臂前臂及肩背肌的力量去打击球,触球时再快收前臂发力摩擦,手腕较固定稍辅助发力摩擦,才有可能做到又打又摩。因为大臂力量较前臂大,而前臂速度较大臂快,才有可能在大臂撞击时用更快的前臂发力收缩摩擦,才能发挥撞击和摩擦的极限。单靠大臂去发力撞击和摩擦不行,单靠前臂也不行;靠大前臂同时发力撞摩也不行;后三者往往在撞击球后球已脱板,不可能再摩擦到球;所以一定要分工合作,打摩式弧圈才有可能。
    正手拉球de发力方法

    ...

    板形与击球部位

      现代乒乓球的拉球更讲究“打摩”结合,所以拉球的板形不必过于前倾,这样容易造成摩擦过多,球的前进力不够。常用的板形是在拉球的起始阶段,板面保持与地面垂直即可。在击球的一瞬间,伴随着手腕内收,板面略有前倾,给球一定的摩擦。摩擦与撞击同时进行。在拉加转弧圈时,摩擦多一些;拉前冲弧圈,只要能保证有适当的弧线,使球过网上台,要增加撞击的比重,使球产生足够的向前冲力;当在第一点拉时,可增加撞击的比重;当在第二点拉时,要增加摩擦的比重;反拉时摩擦要多一些,自己发力拉时,撞击要多一些。
      在击球部位上,拉下旋和一般旋转的上旋球,接触球的后中部向中上部摩擦;反拉强烈上旋球时,接触球中上部向上部摩擦;为了增加拉球的准确性,接触点可稍向左侧面一点,但千万不要侧面过多,形成拉侧旋球的情况。
    TLDR:
    先打後摩/Hit-brushing/hit-and-brush = hit first, then brush
    先摩後打/Brush-hitting/brush-and-hit = brush first, then hit
    打摩結合/Combined hitting and brushing = hit and brush simultaneously
    打摩式弧圈/Hit-brush type loop = hit and brush simultaneously

    So what really happens upon impact? Turns out the clues have been out there for at least 10 years.

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    Last edited by zeio; 10-13-2021 at 12:50 PM.

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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang


    When I look at the video, the forehand grip still looks a little odd to me. What do you guys think? I am purposely trying to hold it as the same grip I use on backhand, but maybe I am subconsciously moving the grip a little.Â

    But one good thing is that my elbow does look to be a lot more bent than before.

    It's a lot easier to see from this angle.
    (1) there is too much shoulder involved. Drop your shoulder permanently. If you need to go up, you have to go up by (1) lower arm snap and (2) leg push.
    (2) too much upward motion. Focus on going forward. If you don't generate enough spin, focus on moving the bat down in the backswing, NOT on moving the bat up when you're swinging. If you backswing properly, you won't have to swing up. It's automatic.


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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ttarc

    Is this even possible?

    It's never about physics. It's about feeling. And people conceptualise their feelings in different ways. One way is that of Lycanthrope. Another, more precise way is that of Dima Ovtcharov. A last minute change of bat angle at contact point. You have to decide to hit the ball very very early before even fully processing the contact point. So you start with an open bat. And then by the time you are about to contact the ball, you change your bat angle.

    This makes a "curved" swing that a lot of people mistakenly think one deliberately curves around the ball. Although it's a valid way to express their feelings. But it's important to NOT COPY IT literally. Again, I've seen more than one training partners try so hard to wrap around the ball and hence generate very very weak ball due to inappropriate contact.

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    #47
    This is an opinion: I think there are too many people giving too many different versions of advice. The stroke is at a decent enough place where, good practice and working with A REAL COACH ..... IN PERSON ..... would take care of enough to make it more solid.

    Some of what I am seeing that looks like it will be the hardest to change is just what happens when you played as a kid, have not played in something like 20 years, and try and get back into it and your body is no longer quite the same and there is more hesitance in your body. And again, that will sort itself out as he practices more. But an older body will always be less agile, more stiff, harder to get moving.

    So, practice with an understanding that there are things beyond your control and with the idea of enjoying the process of practicing rather than worrying too much about the end results.

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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    [p]It's never about physics.
    It is always about physics.

    It's about feeling.
    Reality doesn't care about your feelings.

    A last minute change of bat angle at contact point. You have to decide to hit the ball very very early before even fully processing the contact point. So you start with an open bat. And then by the time you are about to contact the ball, you change your bat angle.
    Nonsense. The timing would have to be perfect. In isn't about minutes. It is about milliseconds.

    This makes a "curved" swing that a lot of people mistakenly think one deliberately curves around the ball. Although it's a valid way to express their feelings. But it's important to NOT COPY IT literally. Again, I've seen more than one training partners try so hard to wrap around the ball and hence generate very very weak ball due to inappropriate contact.
    Yes, don't do it. keep the paddle attitude consistent during the time the ball will hit the paddle. The only time I would consider wrapping the paddle around the ball is when serving. Even then the timing must be perfect but at least you have control of the toss.

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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    Thank you Michael. I want to use this video to raise a discussion here, I hope you don't mind. If that makes you unhappy, please accept my apologize in advance.

    The topic is that:
    We all know we should rotate our waist, use our whole body to make the stroke. Do you guys think Michael in this video is a good example of doing stroke with waist or not?

    I think in this video I dont rotate my waist as much as I usually do or as much as necessary. But it was my first day using the backhand grip, so I was just trying to go slow.


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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    I think in this video I dont rotate my waist as much as I usually do or as much as necessary. But it was my first day using the backhand grip, so I was just trying to go slow.

    Michael, how do you feel about me closing this thread. If you want it to stay open, I will leave it open. But questions like the one you are responding to after the post I made make me think you have long past the point of diminishing returns where people are going to be saying stuff that are things you can see and sort out for yourself just by looking at footage.

    Aside from your posts, I see that maybe there are 4 - 6 posts that may really be useful to you. And if you consistently look at video of yourself for yourself, you would sort a lot of it out on your own or with a coach or a higher level player like the one who is blocking for you.

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    #51
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    This is an opinion... and working with A REAL COACH ..... IN PERSON ..... would take care of enough to make it more solid.Some of what I am seeing that looks like it will be the hardest to change is just what happens when you played as a kid, have not played in something like 20 years...
    Yup, that aspect gunna be real difficult. Ask Next Level from his past, he wrote about this extensively. Changing current ineffective biomechanics that are years/decades ingrained is tough, but it can be done.

    I work with a Russian now American Pastor at the Church I play at. He played decades with his brother bang bang next to no spin close to table and developed/burned into his brain the solid impact to get zero spin. I try very hard to get him to be a flexible topspin attacking player... getting him to understand and execute the relaxed stroke sequence of explosions required to make a fast bat spin vs underspin is more difficult to achieve than pulling wisdom teeth with tweezers.You look at his form and stroke trying to loop underspin in a real match and as a coach, you might cry.

    However, he is learning so many other concepts and nuances of the things that contribute to points won, like decisions/decisiveness and how to move, those things he is picking up WAY faster than other adults. When I can get him to understand the feel of that whip and how to reproduce it, he will get a ton better than he has already imporved, which is a lot. He actually is feeling it more often in practice, but it is still a small percentage.

    One of these days, one of the ever different ways I say the same thing will make sense and light that light, and it will speed up from there.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 10-14-2021 at 07:54 AM.
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    #52
    I repeat again, if you move your legs more, you will naturally solve 95% of your FH issues.

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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    Thank you Michael. I want to use this video to raise a discussion here, I hope you don't mind. If that makes you unhappy, please accept my apologize in advance.

    The topic is that:
    We all know we should rotate our waist, use our whole body to make the stroke. Do you guys think Michael in this video is a good example of doing stroke with waist or not?

    OP's stroke just needs some fine-tuning. It's not bad per se.

    CNT does not encourage waist rotation nowadays. They focus on hip flexion/extension now. Some time after Asian Games 2010, the General Administration of Sport of China invited Michael Boyle, Gray Cook et al. to present the concepts of new functional training for sports. Terms such as compensation and stability in Li Sun's clinics come from their Joint by Joint Approach.

    Discussion on Mytt:
    https://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...linics#1033599
    https://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...tation#1106945

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    Yeah, UpSideDownCarl is right. If any of us put our footage here, people will point out thousands of problems from our stroke. We cannot correct all of them, some of them are important and some of them are just minor. Most of them will be solved automatically if you keeps training, you don't need to pay any attention on them. If you could find 1 or 2 main points in this thread, that's more than enough.

    And this is the reason why more people don’t post footage tbh (including myself) as the criticism isn’t always constructive.

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    #55
    Sometimes it’s good to let the topic drift. It may longer be as useful for the OP. But I found the stuff from the Chinese coach very interesting for me. As in any conversations, a lot of information should be filtered by individuals involved. I guess that’s more of the thing.

    if I were the OP, I would take the discussions that reaffirm what my personal coach was saying to me, or elaborate / express it in a way that’s easier to get. I’ve been doing the same for myself from this forum. But it’s true that one would avoid trying to understand all the things.

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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail

    And this is the reason why more people don’t post footage tbh (including myself) as the criticism isn’t always constructive.

    And i feel the longer you are involved in the world of tabletennis the more you notice that really good players many times do strokes in different ways.
    Technique feels a bit fluent that way, do not need to be text book technique (do it even exist?) as long as it is functional and works for your game.
    I think Schlager played pretty stiff, a bit like a robot but will probably be the last world champion from Europe for a long long time. Do not think Waldner really had any backhand loop to talk about but it worked out pretty okey for him.

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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    That goes to the question Kuba Hajto asked on #36: hit brushing. When hitting too much, the ball goes to net or out of table. When brushing too much, it is hard to hit the ball.

    The concept is not complicated, but it requires lots of training. Hitting the ball first and brushing the ball when the ball is trapped into the rubber. The angle of the racket is changing during the swing. Keep the racket open first, and then close the racket when you start swing your forearm.

    I think the closing of racket angle is actually a myth. I know top players feel that way (timo has talked about exactly what you describe) but if you watch for example ma long he does start his racket vertical (blue line) and then closes but he reaches the maximum closed position very early (red line about when racket is maximum back) and then stays about the same same at contact (yellow) and follow through (green).

    https://www.coachseye.com/v/c3410b48...119097c36f8af6

    If anything the racket ever so slightly opens during the swing in that video of ML.

    However it could be that this opening happens automatically due to anatomy and geometry and that this thought of closing actually helps to keep the angle stable

    ​​​

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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula

    And i feel the longer you are involved in the world of tabletennis the more you notice that really good players many times do strokes in different ways.
    Technique feels a bit fluent that way, do not need to be text book technique (do it even exist?) as long as it is functional and works for your game.
    I think Schlager played pretty stiff, a bit like a robot but will probably be the last world champion from Europe for a long long time. Do not think Waldner really had any backhand loop to talk about but it worked out pretty okey for him.

    Amen! Lula, couldn’t agree more. It’s like when the Chinese vs European style conversations go round and round.

    I imagine your countryman, Mr Falck’s style wouldn’t be in the ‘text book’

    Last edited by jammmail; 10-14-2021 at 05:24 PM.

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    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    So today I switched my forehand grip to the same as backhand grip as many suggested. And I tried to snap my elbow more. At first, it felt really unnatural and it made my arm feel really tight and tired quickly. By the end of the session, I was starting to feel more accustomed to the grip.

    I did notice a few immediate benefits. This grip seems to generate a lot more spin, so it made my forehand loop more consistent. Several balls that I felt I overhit ended up spinning down into the table to my surprise. Im not sure if it generate more power or not, as I still dont quite feel used to it. And my timing of the elbow snap might still be off. However, one guy who I regularly play with said that my power felt overwhelming and kept asking if I changed rackets. In fact I was just using my cheap $30 Aliexpress racket. ($20 blade, $5 rubbers)
    All I would say Michael, is don’t try and change to much too soon. The idea of one grip from Lula is a nice idea. Get used to that first before trying to many other things - otherwise you won’t know what’s working for you and what isn’t. It’s a marathon not a sprint 👍🏓

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail

    And this is the reason why more people don’t post footage tbh (including myself) as the criticism isn’t always constructive.

    And the funny part about this whole thing is, the thing that caused me to want to give Michael Zhuang the ability to choose to close the thread is the previous post from the person you just quoted. I mean.....it is funny when someone does not even realize they have just been insulting....
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