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  1. Tango K is offline
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    #61

    The blue line is his ready position. it's not the start of the swing. He backswings from there to the red line, and that's where the swing actually starts. In this swing, his bat angle is pretty much straight. If you look at the bat angle in a very basic multi-ball shot when the ball is fairly predictable, it should be straight because that way you get the most power out of the shot, and your body movement is most aligned, or "snappy". It might be slightly bent due to body mechanics, but in your head it should be straight. But when the ball is really quick and the spin is unpredictable, you really have to swing in before fully knowing how it would bounce. Then you have to flex your bat angle. Otherwise you'll miss the ball. Watch them all do that in real matches in slowmo.

    Last edited by Tango K; 10-15-2021 at 01:11 AM.

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    #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85

    I think the closing of racket angle is actually a myth. I know top players feel that way (timo has talked about exactly what you describe) but if you watch for example ma long he does start his racket vertical (blue line) and then closes but he reaches the maximum closed position very early (red line about when racket is maximum back) and then stays about the same same at contact (yellow) and follow through (green).

    https://www.coachseye.com/v/c3410b48...119097c36f8af6

    If anything the racket ever so slightly opens during the swing in that video of ML.

    However it could be that this opening happens automatically due to anatomy and geometry and that this thought of closing actually helps to keep the angle stable

    ​​​

    Sorry I was meant to reply to this post.


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    #63
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail

    And this is the reason why more people don’t post footage tbh (including myself) as the criticism isn’t always constructive.

    Quoted for truth. After spending some time on this forum there is no way in the world I would post publicly. Through a PM maybe to an established, helpful member but to everyone? No way.


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    #64
    A quick word on closing the racket face.

    You need motion capture to tell that. Just like the "hit first, then brush", it's not a myth. There are separate studies from China and Taiwan that show players do close the racket face.

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    #65
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    And the funny part about this whole thing is, the thing that caused me to want to give Michael Zhuang the ability to choose to close the thread is the previous post from the person you just quoted. I mean.....it is funny when someone does not even realize they have just been insulting....

    Well, I didn't want to be insulting. I want to raise that discussion that I am interested in and I need some example, but that topic is not so much relevant to Michael. That's why I raise the topic like that, and I put a lot words before raising topic and apologized to Michael in advance.


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    #66
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    A quick word on closing the racket face.

    You need motion capture to tell that. Just like the "hit first, then brush", it's not a myth. There are separate studies from China and Taiwan that show players do close the racket face.
    Show us one!
    Is this like your reduced mass document?

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    #67
    Oh, let me get back to you on entropy first.

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    #68
    @Michael zhuang
    For a helpful tip that has practical use I like this drill in a video by ti long.

    go to about 2:20, the drill consists of throwing a half full water bottle forward and only slightly upward (think about only throwing upward slope like 10 degrees or so). This can help teaching the forward component, the feel did help me

    https://youtu.be/Lk2wr5R5jQo

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    Last edited by Dominikk85; 10-15-2021 at 12:22 PM.

  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    Well, I didn't want to be insulting. I want to raise that discussion that I am interested in and I need some example, but that topic is not so much relevant to Michael. That's why I raise the topic like that, and I put a lot words before raising topic and apologized to Michael in advance.

    If you wanted to raise the topic and have it not be about something Michael WAS NOT DOING, YOU WOULD HAVE MADE A NEW THREAD, with a video of SOMEONE ELSE, and asked people to discuss the use or lack of use of hips. If you did not want it to be about Michael you WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED THIS:

    "Do you guys think Michael in this video is a good example of doing stroke with waist or not?"

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    #70
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Show us one!
    Is this like your reduced mass document?
    Posted this first exactly 6 years ago. Show your omniscience and tell me which one relates to the control of racket face? I have more up my sleeves.

    https://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...actball#899704
    https://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...looping#967094

  11. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #71
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    If you wanted to raise the topic and have it not be about something Michael WAS NOT DOING, YOU WOULD HAVE MADE A NEW THREAD, with a video of SOMEONE ELSE, and asked people to discuss the use or lack of use of hips. If you did not want it to be about Michael you WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED THIS:

    "Do you guys think Michael in this video is a good example of doing stroke with waist or not?"

    It seems your suggestion doesn't make any sense.

    Michael opened the thread to discuss his technique. Although I said my question is not so much relevant to Michael, but it also means it does relevant to Michael. It is relevant to Michael and all others who are thinking about their use of waists..

    If I use a video of SOMEONE ELSE, should I ask for the permission of someone else? Of course I should. Or do you just mean I can upload a video of someone else and raise a topic as I want, you think it is OK if this someone else is NOT a member of the forum? Some others did uploaded videos and people have discussed so many other things in a wide range, and you didn't said anything like above, it seems you are OK for that way.

    All in all, the situation is that Michael opens the thread to everyone on the forum to discuss his technique. It is OK for everyone to discuss in relation to his technique IN HIS THREAD.

    I didn't have to make long words before my raising the question, but I did and I apologized in advance. That was what I have done to show my consideration on Michael's feeling. If Michael said he didn't want me to discuss the use of hips, I will delete my question. I don't have to do that, but I will do. Being challenged is always not a happy thing, I have tried not be challenging to Michael, but it seems you didn't want to waste of your time to cover your challenging attitude towards me.

    Going back to the question on use of hips. I raised the question because the use of hips is not so black and white. Everyone is turning waist more or less, but what we want is how we can effectively apply the energy of waist/hip to our stroke. ...[deleted]

    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 10-19-2021 at 07:52 AM.

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    #72

    Jimmies = rustled.I might record my next league match and post it here bc it's actually quite funny watching something as innocent as hey guys can k get a couple of pointers decend into three separate argumentsand you still get the advice. Value for money​​​​​​

    Last edited by passifid; 10-18-2021 at 09:49 AM.

  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

    It seems your suggestion doesn't make any sense.

    Michael opened the thread to discuss his technique. Although I said my question is not so much relevant to Michael, but it also means it does relevant to Michael. It is relevant to Michael and all others who are thinking about their use of waists..

    If I use a video of SOMEONE ELSE, should I ask for the permission of someone else? Of course I should. Or do you just mean I can upload a video of someone else and raise a topic as I want, you think it is OK if this someone else is NOT a member of the forum? Some others did uploaded videos and people have discussed so many other things in a wide range, and you didn't said anything like above, it seems you are OK for that way.

    All in all, the situation is that Michael opens the thread to everyone on the forum to discuss his technique. It is OK for everyone to discuss in relation to his technique IN HIS THREAD.

    I didn't have to make long words before my raising the question, but I did and I apologized in advance. That was what I have done to show my consideration on Michael's feeling. If Michael said he didn't want me to discuss the use of hips, I will delete my question. I don't have to do that, but I will do. Being challenged is always not a happy thing, I have tried not be challenging to Michael, but it seems you didn't want to waste of your time to cover your challenging attitude towards me.

    Going back to the question on use of hips. I raised the question because the use of hips is not so black and white. Everyone is turning waist more or less, but what we want is how we can effectively apply the energy of waist/hip to our stroke. I raise that question is because Michael was turning his waist but I have a feeling that the energy hasn't been fully transferred to racket. I am not so sure about my feeling, so I raise it. That is the difference between you and me, because you are so sure that he has used hip, and I think it requires further discussion.

    The actual issue is, the way you raised the question was, whether you realize it or not, done in a way that was insulting. That you are still oblivious to this, I think, is unfortunate. If I say, I am sorry to say this, but you are a _______ (fill in something rude) I am still being rude. In fact the "I am sorry" before being rude seems to me to highlight the part that is rude.

    And you could start the new thread about use of hips with a pro who is doing it well. Or you could start the thread about using hips with a VIDEO OF YOU. But, yes, if the example is of someone who is not using the hips effectively, then, it should either be you or someone who is purposely demonstrating ineffective use of the hips.

    Further, you could ask things, WITHOUT REFERENCING VIDEO OF MICHAEL, or referring to anyone, and ask something like: "this is a question for some of the higher level players: could you explain how one would use the hips in a way that makes the stroke more effective?" And something like that could have been anywhere including in this thread. Please note: I phrased that without referencing specific footage or player.

    The answer is sort of that the hips should be timed to add power to the moment of contact. It can be a very small movement or a bigger movement, but if the hips pop in a way that is timed to transfer power into the ball on contact it will make the stroke and the transfer of energy into the ball more effective thus, making the shot a higher quality shot.

    But, the way you phrased it made it seem like you were saying what Michael was doing was not effective. Which is probably part of why Michael commented after you that he is probably not using his hips effectively.

    And there is a reason why Jammail made this comment:

    jammmail;354167

    And this is the reason why more people don’t post footage tbh (including myself) as the criticism isn’t always constructive.



    There are a few good comments and they are invariably from players who are higher level and know what they are talking about and then there are a ton of comments that really are just kind of insulting that probably will go into the category of too much and irrelevant information.

    Hips, it could be useful to discuss the function of hips. But why highlight something like that with reference to Michael's video when, that is definitely something that will just start happening as he practices more without him even focusing on it. As the skill and coordination of the stroke get refined from practice and repetition, the hesitance that is part of why the hips are not timed well, will go away and the stroke will be more confident. The pieces of the puzzle are actually mostly there for Michael. What he needs most is simply practice and repetition.

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  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope


    All in all, the situation is that Michael opens the thread to everyone on the forum to discuss his technique. It is OK for everyone to discuss in relation to his technique IN HIS THREAD.

    I guess, one more thing: when NextLevel was more active on this forum he used to frequently say things like: if you are going to comment on the technique of another forum member who has posted video, it is worth you posting video yourself. Because when you have, you will be more sensitive to how someone who has posted footage will receive comments about the footage they have posted.

    And he also would say: I won't comment on the technique of a player unless I am enough better than them that I can actually be helpful to them.

    I think it is unfortunate that people don't comment with more sensitivity and respect when someone has opened up and posted footage of themself.

    I think it was a really good thing Michael posted video of himself. But it does get under my skin that so many people just don't know how to behave when someone has done that.

    And, I would suggest that when someone has posted footage and asked for help improving, they may not be asking for EVERYONE to comment. It may be worth letting the guys who are REALLY actually coaches, or qualified to be coaches, be the ones who give the help. They will know how to say things in a way that will be helpful to the person posting the footage.

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    #75
    I apologize for my improper words to Michael.

    I have so many other things to say to UpSideDownCarl, but I think the best way is to give an end to this argument.

    I delete my words about Michael's stroke in this thread in case my comments have misled or insulted Michael.

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    #76
    Looks good

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