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  1. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #1

    Give me some advice on my Forehand loop



    Carl requested it, so I just a little video of me. Might as well get some feedback.Â

    A little background about me: I played once or twice a week for about 3 years in middle school, maybe between age 11-14. In my city club rating system, my rating was something like 1400 or 1500. Then I focused on getting into college, going to college, working, traveling around the world, living abroad for many years and never picked up a racket again for 20 years. So Im picking up where I left off at age 14. Im about 2 months back into playing, but I still dont feel back to where I was. In these 20 years, I put on a lot of weight, gorging on food from all my travels, so my footwork has just gone down a lot.Â

    The video is me just looping against a 2000 level player blocking for me. People have sometimes said of me that I brush the ball too much, and my loop is a little archy. I feel like Im not getting a lot of power on my loop, but fairly good spin. Also my racket is pretty slow. Im using a Globe 999 from 2007 (yes, it is 14 year old rubber with inconsistent grip across the surface). The blade is the fake ZLC. Next time I should take a video with my main setup, which is Big Dipper on the V-14 Pro. Sometimes I dont like to use it because I still dont feel my condition is right. Im also not lefthanded, but I used the front camera on my phone, so it came out like that.Â
    Last edited by Michael Zhuang; 10-08-2021 at 05:40 AM.

  2. Gozo is offline
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    #2
    Great job Mike for posting a vid of your FH practice. You are in luck since you want to use Tacky Chinese rubber on your forehand, there are plenty of FH topspin tutorial videos in YT including Ma Long, FZD, XX et al. Check out Ti Long's vid as I remember he teaches the stroke of these CNT superstar.

    On to my personal comment, you have gotta move those darn legs. You move them, 1000 of your mistake will disappear magically, I swear on my Red Tenergy 05. Next, keep your elbow tight against your body to improve on placement consistency. This will also improve your footwork because you will not be lazy to extend your arm to catch the ball which I call this the lazy ball approach ( over extend arm ). You can use a resistance band to tie you elbow to your torso to lock your elbow against your body if you want to.

    By locking your elbow, it also forces you to NOT swing your arm upwards in excess of 45 degrees. Your arm swing should not exceed 45 degrees. Anything higher than that, you are lifting your ball high and your opponent can smash it back.

    Hope this help and good luck. Keep swinging them away!

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    #3
    Hi Michael,
    Few tips from my side.

    1) Footwork: I mostly agree with Gozo, especially on the footwork. Use your legs/feet to get into position for each stroke.
    2) Stand: Instead of standing up straight, bend a bit more foreward and take a more active posture. You will notice that your topspin
    3) Blade angle: Angle of your bat is way too open and that's one of the reasons you A) brush the ball too much, B) have a high arc and C) not enough speed on your topspin ball.
    4) Stroke: Personally I don't prefer tacky rubbers, so haven't much experience with them. However, I do know that your FH topspin stroke needs full movement (not like European style short(er) arm movement). And there I do not agree with Gozo in locking your elbow to your body. Tacky rubbers need full spin and definitely a forward motion.

    Keep in mind, when changing your playstyle you step out your comfort zone and at first you will make more mistakes, a lot more (and that's okay as you learn from mistakes). Making a lot of mistakes during practice can be frustrating sometimes, but in time, you'll improve your technique and make less mistakes.

    Hope this helps and good luck!

  4. Der_Echte is offline
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Carl requested it, so I just a little video of me. Might as well get some feedback.ÂA little background about me: I played once or twice a week for about 3 years in middle school, maybe between age 11-14. In my city club rating system, my rating was something like 1400 or 1500. Then I focused on getting into college, going to college, working, traveling around the world, living abroad for many years and never picked up a racket again for 20 years. So Im picking up where I left off at age 14. Im about 2 months back into playing, but I still dont feel back to where I was. In these 20 years, I put on a lot of weight, gorging on food from all my travels, so my footwork has just gone down a lot. What is your height and weight> I am likely a LOT larger than you in my middle and likely a lot older, but I think you can do enough to get it done given your body. I wouldn't sweat it too much. You have larger (pun intended) issues than your weight.The video is me just looping against a 2000 level player blocking for me. People have sometimes said of me that I brush the ball too much, and my loop is a little archy. I feel like Im not getting a lot of power on my loop, but fairly good spin. I have very professional coaches tell me I do not strike the ball forward enough by instinct every time. It isn't the end-all. That same coach who is levels above me still has big problems with judging my looping. I win points vs him if it comes to me looping, so judge for yourself what kind of shot selection you want as a reaction blindly. I prefer safety and spin if there is not a clear ball to look hard. It is not a national crime to think the way you do if it is your natural talent and disposition. You can play 2200 without bang-bang play style.Also my racket is pretty slow. Im using a Globe 999 from 2007 (yes, it is 14 year old rubber with inconsistent grip across the surface). The blade is the fake ZLC. 999 is one of the all time great allround offensive rubbers. You can learn just about any shot with it. You are not committing capital crimes using this rubber to develop. Plus, Colestt.com always sells custom built sponges on this topsheet and can build you 4 of those for the price of ONE of the rubbers I sell at nexyusa.com so you are sitting fine there.Next time I should take a video with my main setup, which is Big Dipper on the V-14 Pro. Sometimes I dont like to use it because I still dont feel my condition is right. Im also not lefthanded, but I used the front camera on my phone, so it came out like that.Â
    The biggest things I can say are not much explosion or commitment, you drop the bat way down too far even for a spin stroke, and you are striking the ball a little too far in front of the middle of strike zone. (Think like you are reaching out too early to meet the ball) Lots of undeveloped players do that - it is human nature to reach out and touch someone when you are unsure... plus one might see it a little better there... but there is not much leverage there.Think swing plane. if ball is coming chest high, your backswing should not go down well below your waist, unless you are looping heavy underspin with a slow heavy loop.You are moving body and hips, but not using them independently to generate and transfer power as a series/sequence of explosions.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 10-08-2021 at 07:09 AM.
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by P1ngP0ng3r
    Hi Michael,
    Few tips from my side.

    1) Footwork: I mostly agree with Gozo, especially on the footwork. Use your legs/feet to get into position for each stroke.
    2) Stand: Instead of standing up straight, bend a bit more foreward and take a more active posture. You will notice that your topspin
    3) Blade angle: Angle of your bat is way too open and that's one of the reasons you A) brush the ball too much, B) have a high arc and C) not enough speed on your topspin ball.
    4) Stroke: Personally I don't prefer tacky rubbers, so haven't much experience with them. However, I do know that your FH topspin stroke needs full movement (not like European style short(er) arm movement). And there I do not agree with Gozo in locking your elbow to your body. Tacky rubbers need full spin and definitely a forward motion.

    Keep in mind, when changing your playstyle you step out your comfort zone and at first you will make more mistakes, a lot more (and that's okay as you learn from mistakes). Making a lot of mistakes during practice can be frustrating sometimes, but in time, you'll improve your technique and make less mistakes.

    Hope this helps and good luck!
    Â

    Hey thanks. I do need to stay on my toes and force myself to move more. I just play a very lazy style, whenever I focus on moving I can just do it for a few moments and then naturally drift back into being lazy. About the blade angle, I actually think it has a lot to do with the rubber. When I borrow somebody else's rubber, I think i play with a more closed angle (because they have faster tensor rubber). But in this video, the rubber is quite slow and I guess I can sense that unless the angle is open, the ball wont make it over the net.Â


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    #6
    too much "UP" and not enough "FORWARD". 😁

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    #7
    I think if you change a little more to backhand grip the loop will become more better by it self. Now you seem to hold a bit forehand grip and with that you do not use the forearm and push forward more with the whole arm.

    also better with a bit of backhand grip in today’s game. Only Timo Boll and Falck that change to forehand grip. Many of the others have more of a backhand grip.

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    #8
    You are spinning the ball by coming up the back which is good into backspin of a gentle opener.

    The reason you are getting lots pr arch and lack of direction is with tacky Chinese rubber you need to trust it and brush more the top when you want the loop to be direct.

    ​​​​this will lower the arch and improve the directness of the shot and is much more of a unique feel to Chinese when done correctly

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    #9
    I agree with others that there is no "snap" to your stroke because you don't bend your elbow. You are too rigid.

    It would have been better if we could see the entire flight path of the balls. One way I judge other people's loops is by what the ball does after the bounce. A good loop will bounce out low and fast after the bounce. A good loop will also cause the opponent to block high.

    If you don't hit the ball fast, it will will arc but the arc could be simply due to gravity.
    The Magnus ( loop ) effect is proportional to the speed x spin ( technically it is the cross product ).

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I agree with others that there is no "snap" to your stroke because you don't bend your elbow. You are too rigid.

    It would have been better if we could see the entire flight path of the balls. One way I judge other people's loops is by what the ball does after the bounce. A good loop will bounce out low and fast after the bounce. A good loop will also cause the opponent to block high.

    If you don't hit the ball fast, it will will arc but the arc could be simply due to gravity.
    The Magnus ( loop ) effect is proportional to the speed x spin ( technically it is the cross product ).

    I dont have a tripod, so i dont know how to setup to show the whole court. I just leaned my phone against the net


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    #11
    Try to move your feet like 30cm more apart than now (wider stance). This will make it easier to transfer more weight to and from the right leg (right-hander), use the body a bit more, and then generate a stronger stroke. Thanks for posting, keep fighting!

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    #12

    As per the feedback, I tried to close my racket a little more and snap a little more, which was easier to do borrowing somebody else's racket. Here I am with a Hurricane 3 on some Hurricane blade, but it definitely feels OFF+ blade. Also put in some backhands.

  13. Der_Echte is offline
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    #13
    You are swinging hinging the swing on your shoulder joint and not using lower arm. Your upper and lower arm are moving together like the govt paid the train fare for both.

    That might work for low power shots near the table, but it is not very efficient at generating and transferring kinetic energy.

    Your fundamentals are much better developed on your BH than FH... many players are like that early.
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    #14
    Try to film one with more backhand grip. I aril think because of the forehand grip you push the ball a bit forward with your elbow instead of snapping the forearm and also get an open racket angle.

    If you use different grip for backhand try that for forehand as well!

    For the backhand I think you can use elbow more as power point and try to come more over the ball. If you have the same grip as you have for forehand on your backhand it explains why it is difficult to come over the ball.

    keep up the good work!

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    #15
    Head should be turning in the opposite direction of the arm, this is why there isn't enough power in your shots because your head and the arm and everything else is too rigid and isn't synced properly and the timing is all wrong. Also in order to create a greater friction contact with the ball, rather than swinging the whole arm loosely as you do now in a sort of one motion, you need to first bring the racket to the side of the ball (by keeping the elbow tight), and then at the last moment accelerate rapidly moving the racket forward (especially using H3 there needs to be a very direct contact with the ball with an open racket angle in order to create enough friction and thus being able to grab the ball) this is where head turning is crucial at this point so that it moves in the opposite direction of the racket.
    Last edited by bzing; 10-09-2021 at 11:22 AM.

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    #16
    A lot of people mention snapping the elbow, i should try that. But it feels very unnnatural to me. I think because i spent many years playing tennis. In tennis, the idea is to keep elbow relatively straight and hit the ball very far in front of you. This might be hard to change.

    Maybe table tennis has a later contact point?

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    #17
    Watch this. You can see Boll almost is whipping the ball with a snap of his wrist and forearm. What is important is the paddle speed at contact. Also, pay attention to what Boll has to say about when to hit the ball or the height at which to hit the ball. This requires timing and the ability to move to where the ball will be at the right height. In your video the balls are hit too soon and go too high over the net.

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    #18
    In table tennis the use of the biceps is probably more prevalent than in tennis and you need to bring the elbow in when swinging the racket back, and only extend the arm when the ball is near the side of your body.
    There was a lot better FZD & ML training video on YT but it got deleted and I think it's been totally scrubbed of YT as I can't find it anywhere anymore.

    But yes timing is all different in table tennis and you should not stretch your arm back like you do so early, keep it tight together, bring the racket to the side of the ball and extend it only at the very last moment when the ball is near the side of your body.
    Last edited by bzing; 10-09-2021 at 06:45 PM.

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    #19
    In the most simple terms, you need to swing as if you're doing boxing, rather than playing golf. Boxing is probably a lot more connected to table tennis than any other sport as it's so inextricably linked between the footwork and the punches. It's why Ma Long purportedly has been learning certain martial arts training that helps him a lot in producing those power FH shots.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bzing
    In table tennis the use of the biceps is probably more prevalent than in tennis and you need to bring the elbow in when swinging the racket back, and only extend the arm when the ball is near the side of your body.
    There was a lot better FZD & ML training video on YT but it got deleted and I think it's been totally scrubbed of YT as I can't find it anywhere anymore.

    But yes timing is all different in table tennis and you should not stretch your arm back like you do so early, keep it tight together, bring the racket to the side of the ball and extend it only at the very last moment when the ball is near the side of your body.

    Notice that the paddle is moving in the same plane as the plane of the stroke.

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