Back to Forum
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 68
  1. lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 254 717
    L
    lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 717 254
    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheMan

    I don’t think that lodro believes you are sponsored by Butterfly. I think he points out that he is not surprised that a player who wears butterfly clothes, have a big butterfly banner on the wall, have several butterfly rubber packages on the wall, have earlier reviewed mostly butterfly products and always play with different butterfly blades and rubbers - would think that the butterfly product is the best one. Perhaps the love for the brand could make you a bit biased. 🤔

    However, I also prefer D09c over H3 and rakza Z. 😊

    Actually I was just trying to jank Brians's chain 😁


  2. Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 303 469
    T
    Tango K is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 469 303

    User Info Menu


    Jan 2020
    UK
    469
    303
    992
    Read 0 Reviews
    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Ive heard that topping out idea before, but i never understood it. Im not physics expert, but i dont see how h3 could be faster than tenergy if the same guy with the same power hits it. I can see how tenergy has a Limit on speed because of the air drag on the ball, but i dont see how h3 can be faster than tenergy.Â

    Also, why not put h3 topsheet on tenergy sponge or another fast sponge? Why does it need to have the dead sponge?

    Or why not just make a super tacky version of tenergy? Why does it have to be either or?

    You have Dignics 09c when you put Tenergy sponge under tacky top-sheet. You have Rakza Z when you put ESN sponge under tacky topsheet. The Europeans start to like them!

    H3 gives you more power at the top end because it gives you confidence to go full body forward, and hence you've been building your techniques around that since you were a kid. Not because itself has this or that kinetic energy. Or it may not give you more power at all. It just gives you a ton more dip when you go full power, which makes the ball harder to get to, which makes you feel like the ball has a lot of power. All are indeed illusion. It's like some of my training partners think my smash is much faster than theirs whereas I know very well the opposite. Albeit my smash is quite a bit harder to block.

    The Following User Likes Tango K's Post:

    ttarc


  3. Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 37 284
    M
    Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 284 37

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    284
    37
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K

    You have Dignics 09c when you put Tenergy sponge under tacky top-sheet. You have Rakza Z when you put ESN sponge under tacky topsheet. The Europeans start to like them!

    H3 gives you more power at the top end because it gives you confidence to go full body forward, and hence you've been building your techniques around that since you were a kid. Not because itself has this or that kinetic energy. Or it may not give you more power at all. It just gives you a ton more dip when you go full power, which makes the ball harder to get to, which makes you feel like the ball has a lot of power. All are indeed illusion. It's like some of my training partners think my smash is much faster than theirs whereas I know very well the opposite. Albeit my smash is quite a bit harder to block.

    But people have said Dignics 09c is not nearly as tacky as H3. I mean, why not put a fully tacky topsheet on the Tenergy/Dignics sponge to get the best of both worlds? Im pretty sure back in the day, the Chinese team would make their own custom rubbers such as Sriver topsheet on Bryce sponge or Hurricane on Bryce sponge.


  4. mocker88 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 81 235
    mocker88's Avatar
    mocker88 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 235 81
    #24
    What I felt when playing with Nittaku Zieger PK50, which I guess is a bit similar to Rakza Z and Dignics 09C, is that compared to H3 the top sheet is softer and doesn't give you the "direct" kick that rubbers like DHS H3N, 729 Battle II and Yinhe Big Dipper does. It got good spin, but it kind of "bottoms out" where H3N doesn't.

  5. SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 833 1,295
    SFF_lib's Avatar
    SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,295 833
    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    But people have said Dignics 09c is not nearly as tacky as H3. I mean, why not put a fully tacky topsheet on the Tenergy/Dignics sponge to get the best of both worlds? Im pretty sure back in the day, the Chinese team would make their own custom rubbers such as Sriver topsheet on Bryce sponge or Hurricane on Bryce sponge.

    I always wonder that too. In the old days we used to be able to buy the topsheet and sponge separately. We could experiment all kinds of combinations!!

  6. SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 833 1,295
    SFF_lib's Avatar
    SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,295 833
    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Ive heard that topping out idea before, but i never understood it. Im not physics expert, but i dont see how h3 could be faster than tenergy if the same guy with the same power hits it. I can see how tenergy has a Limit on speed because of the air drag on the ball, but i dont see how h3 can be faster than tenergy.Â

    Also, why not put h3 topsheet on tenergy sponge or another fast sponge? Why does it need to have the dead sponge?

    Or why not just make a super tacky version of tenergy? Why does it have to be either or?

    If you put 09C, T05 and H3 in the same hardness scale:
    H3 - 63
    09C - 54
    T05 - 44 (by extrapolation)

    As you can see H3 has the most power reservoir among them. Despite the tackiness (in fact new H3 aren't as tacky as before), if you have the right technique and physiques, if you can bottom out the H3 (most CNT can) you can produce a faster shot than both 09C and T05.

    The Following User Likes SFF_lib's Post:

    lodro


  7. latej is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 225 375
    L
    latej is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 375 225
    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib

    If you put 09C, T05 and H3 in the same hardness scale:
    H3 - 63
    09C - 54
    T05 - 44 (by extrapolation)

    As you can see H3 has the most power reservoir among them. Despite the tackiness (in fact new H3 aren't as tacky as before), if you have the right technique and physiques, if you can bottom out the H3 (most CNT can) you can produce a faster shot than both 09C and T05.



    Taken from here. So I thought H3 H41 is like 55. How did you get to the 63?

    The Following User Likes latej's Post:

    MK73


  8. ttarc is offline
    says Needs more systematic training
     
    Established TTD Member 71 131
    T
    ttarc is offline
    says Needs more systematic training
     
    Established TTD Member 131 71
    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib

    If you put 09C, T05 and H3 in the same hardness scale:
    H3 - 63
    09C - 54
    T05 - 44 (by extrapolation)

    As you can see H3 has the most power reservoir among them. Despite the tackiness (in fact new H3 aren't as tacky as before), if you have the right technique and physiques, if you can bottom out the H3 (most CNT can) you can produce a faster shot than both 09C and T05.

    Nittaku Japan uses +10 to convert from Butterfly hardness to ESN so the Tenergy 05 is around 46 ESN.
    From the rubbers I have played/tested I can say that a Rakza Z has around the same hardness as a 38° Battle 2 Provincial, maybe a bit harder than the B2 but both are softer than H3 39. A Codexx EL Pro 52 has around the same hardness as a H3 39 and all of them including H3 40 are softer than a Victas Triple Extra with a 55° (nominal) sponge (the TE plays softer because it has a softer topsheet). So I think that the conversion table latej posted is correct.

  9. Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 183 299
    Manto76's Avatar
    Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 299 183
    #29
    See the table below...
    • H3 40 degrees = 53 degrees ESN
    • Tenergy 05 36 degrees = ~49 degrees ESN
    • Dignics 09C 44 degrees = ~55/56 degrees ESN

    Bear in mind that this is only talking about SPONGE hardness; it doesn't account for the different topsheet properties which contribute significantly to the overall feel of softness/hardness of the whole 'unit'.



  10. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 627 1,471
    K
    Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,471 627
    #30
    Most of the recent messages brought up in this topic lies in line with what I've been preaching about for a while. Speed is not linear in terms of tt equipment. In my domain I would say it is a function of effort and contact type. I am sure that zeio or brokenball has a much better explanation.

    I am hitting the combination of my skill and G1 limit very often while I could not hit it with Battle 2 and other tackies.
    WTB Butterfly Ovtcharov and Vodak Horejsi ALC PM me if you want to sell one.

  11. Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 37 284
    M
    Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 284 37

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    284
    37
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib

    If you put 09C, T05 and H3 in the same hardness scale:
    H3 - 63
    09C - 54
    T05 - 44 (by extrapolation)

    As you can see H3 has the most power reservoir among them. Despite the tackiness (in fact new H3 aren't as tacky as before), if you have the right technique and physiques, if you can bottom out the H3 (most CNT can) you can produce a faster shot than both 09C and T05.

    So why dont more Euro/Jap players use H3? they surely are trained and can bottom out the H3?


  12. Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 183 299
    Manto76's Avatar
    Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 299 183
    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    So why dont more Euro/Jap players use H3? they surely are trained and can bottom out the H3?

    I imagine the fact that almost all top European players are sponsored by European or Japanese brands (and not by DHS) has much to do with it. If someone like Ovtcharov, Boll, Gauzy or Pitchford was sponsored by DHS I suspect we'd see some movement in that direction.

    There's also the legacy issue to consider: all the European 'greats' were sponsored by European brands, and some of them are still associated with those brands. For example: Rosskopf with Joola; Waldner and Persson with Donic; Samsonov with Tibhar.

    Last edited by Manto76; 10-13-2021 at 09:14 PM.

  13. lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 254 717
    L
    lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 717 254
    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Manto76

    I imagine the fact that almost all top European players are sponsored by European or Japanese brands (and not by DHS) has much to do with it. If someone like Ovtcharov, Boll, Gauzy or Pitchford was sponsored by DHS I suspect we'd see some movement in that direction.

    There's also the legacy issue to consider: all the European 'greats' were sponsored by European brands, and some of them are still associated with those brands. For example: Rosskopf with Joola; Waldner and Persson with Donic; Samsonov with Tibhar.

    Yes, i agree, contractual obligations is one important aspect .
    Also , do one simple exercise, if you are right handed , start brushing your teeth with the left hand , just for a laugh.
    This will feel quite awkward, right ?

    Now play TT with the wrong hand 😁

    If for years or even decades one has developed both ones muscles and ones brain to do one thing , it would be very difficult to
    suddenly change the whole body and mind around. . Not impossible of course, but why change a winning system.


  14. Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 37 284
    M
    Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 284 37

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    284
    37
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    Yes, i agree, contractual obligations is one important aspect .
    Also , do one simple exercise, if you are right handed , start brushing your teeth with the left hand , just for a laugh.
    This will feel quite awkward, right ?

    Now play TT with the wrong hand 😁

    If for years or even decades one has developed both ones muscles and ones brain to do one thing , it would be very difficult to
    suddenly change the whole body and mind around. . Not impossible of course, but why change a winning system.

    Because its not a winning system. Chinese have won almost every gold medal the past 20 years. If bottomed out H3 is so much better, why dont the Europeans train from a younger age with it, bottom it out, get sponsored by DHS (surely DHS would happily oblige), and win more gold medals. Im sure nobody would willingly give up gold medals just for a little extra sponsorship money.


  15. lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 254 717
    L
    lodro is offline
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Senior TTD Member 717 254
    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    Because its not a winning system. Chinese have won almost every gold medal the past 20 years. If bottomed out H3 is so much better, why dont the Europeans train from a younger age with it, bottom it out, get sponsored by DHS (surely DHS would happily oblige), and win more gold medals. Im sure nobody would willingly give up gold medals just for a little extra sponsorship money.

    the younger we are the more difficult it is to see that everything is cyclical 😁
    Don't get me wrong ,looking at modern history of TT your argument has value.
    Looking at it from a broader point of view one could argue : Where were the Chinese in the 60es , 70es and 80es. ?????
    (Of course this is a rhetorical question and need not be answered)
    In not too distance future the medalists might come from India , Africa, South America etc.


  16. Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 37 284
    M
    Michael Zhuang is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 284 37

    User Info Menu


    Aug 2021
    284
    37
    0
    Read 0 Reviews
    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    the younger we are the more difficult it is to see that everything is cyclical 😁
    Don't get me wrong ,looking at modern history of TT your argument has value.
    Looking at it from a broader point of view one could argue : Where were the Chinese in the 60es , 70es and 80es. ?????
    (Of course this is a rhetorical question and need not be answered)
    In not too distance future the medalists might come from India , Africa, South America etc.

    I think 60s and 70s Chinese were suffering revolution and mass starvation and war, so maybe they deserve a pass for not producing great talent in that generation.

    But in the modern era, and in the foreseeable future, nobody seems to be able to compete with China consistently in TT.

    The Following User Likes Michael Zhuang's Post:

    lodro


  17. SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 833 1,295
    SFF_lib's Avatar
    SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,295 833
    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by latej



    Taken from here. So I thought H3 H41 is like 55. How did you get to the 63?

    From TT11.

    My speculation is that they used the same durometer to measure the hardness.

  18. SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 833 1,295
    SFF_lib's Avatar
    SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,295 833
    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    So why dont more Euro/Jap players use H3? they surely are trained and can bottom out the H3?

    Idk. I guess most coaches who started in the 1980s didn’t used H3? So coaches influenced the students?

  19. SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 833 1,295
    SFF_lib's Avatar
    SFF_lib is online now
    This user has no status.
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,295 833
    #39
    Top gear power and spin is one thing, the ability to manoeuvre angle, trajectory, spin and pace is definitely a superior property of H3.

    If you look at the recent ML, he won a lot of games not due to power, but due to his rapidly changing pace, placement, spin and power. He won with intelligence.

    With all due respect, European kids don’t train as hard as their counterparts in Asia, especially China. It has many negative impacts on Chinese children tbh.

    I suspect it’s the training that brew gold medallist in China after all. H3 probably only gives them a very slight edge at best.

    The Following 3 Users Like SFF_lib's Post:

    latej, lodro and 1 other


  20. Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 183 299
    Manto76's Avatar
    Manto76 is offline
    This user has no status.
     
    Advanced TTD Member 299 183
    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    Top gear power and spin is one thing, the ability to manoeuvre angle, trajectory, spin and pace is definitely a superior property of H3.

    If you look at the recent ML, he won a lot of games not due to power, but due to his rapidly changing pace, placement, spin and power. He won with intelligence.

    With all due respect, European kids don’t train as hard as their counterparts in Asia, especially China. It has many negative impacts on Chinese children tbh.

    I suspect it’s the training that brew gold medallist in China after all. H3 probably only gives them a very slight edge at best.

    You're probably right. I imagine that if ML had trained with, say, T05 or G-1 or MXP since he started playing he'd probably still be the best of his generation.

    The Following 3 Users Like Manto76's Post:

    balazs1234, latej and 1 other


Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Create a new Topic:
Title is required.