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    #1

    Outer Plies : Limba,Hinoki,Koto

    Hi Everyone

    If you are reading that now, please answer. This topic can be amazing!

    Outer ply just teels us much about feel blade/s.
    If someone knows let me them write what they are characterized these woods(with specific feel).
    What outer ply fits you the most on soft rubbers?
    For now, I am writing in general, buy with the development theme will describe in detail ther thoughts on the outer ply( I hpe that with you )

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    #2
    I prefer Hinoki on my outer ply. Limba is a bit soft for me, but for starting players it's a fantastic start/stepping stone to the Hinoki.

    It's all about preference.

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    I love Hinoki, but I like it best when it is on a blade that is all Hinoki. Hinoki is springy. When you are using an all Hinoki blade it has a great feel to it. The thing that feels best is those One Ply Hinoki blades but they have downsides to them. The first is that they are too thick to use for shakehand. The second is that One Ply Hinoki blades are very delicate and break easily. The one ply can split because the grains of the wood all line up.

    I love the way Limba feels as an outer ply because it gives you a lot of dwell time. But I like Limba when it is a very thin ply the way it is on many Stiga blades. I don't like the feel of it as much on the Butterfly blades where Butterfly has the Limba plies cut thicker and where Limba is often the outer ply and also the ply directly under the outer ply. Then it feels too dead. Blades like the Stiga Clipper, Tube Offensive, Tube Allround, Allround NCT, Allround Oversize and Energy Wood, have a Limba outer ply with Ayous under it.

    Koto is a little harder and has a lot of crispness to it. Koto is the outer ply on many of the Timo Boll blades like the Timo Boll Spirit and Timo Boll ALC. It is also the outer ply on the Avalox P-500 and the Kong Linghui blades. I think you get more dwell time and spin with a Limba outer ply and more speed with a Koto outer ply.

    All three woods are great woods but they all have different characteristics.

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    #4
    This thread has Carl's name written all over it

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    #5
    I've used blades with each of these outer plies, and from my experience, limba is well balanced. Not too hard or soft so it transmits the vibration to the core and onwards to your hand in a natural way. My original Keyshot and Mizutani had limba outers and they both had good feeling and control for their respective speeds. Koto transmits a vibration that is crisp and sharp, that is the feeling I got from my old Viscaria and TB ZLC. The blade I've been using for the last couple years is hinoki outer ply...its soft and gives a mild vibration feel. Its a very comfortable vibration but might be a little muddy or vague for some people.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by azlan
    This thread has Carl's name written all over it
    Indeed Azlan!
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  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by azlan
    This thread has Carl's name written all over it
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders123
    Indeed Azlan!
    You guys are funny. But of course, I love this kind of stuff.

    And I love playing with a Limba outer ply, at least when they make it thin the way Stiga does. The Clipper is a blade that has a Limba outer ply and there are a lot of professionals that use it. So I don't think this is an issue of advanced or less advanced as Mr. RicharD suggests.

    A limba outer ply is soft and slow, sort of dead, so there is a lot of dwell time and you can create a lot of spin with it. Good for serves, pushing, short game and looping. If the limba ply is thin, so that you get to the inner plies on a fuller, faster stroke, the way Stiga uses it, you get this nice snap when it reaches the inner plies and the ball flies. So you end up with a blade that has gears.

    In New York, many of the players who have come from China and played professionally and are rated over 2500 seem to use and recommend the Clipper as a good blade. I don't know if they still do, but I think, in China, this was the blade they used to train children. But again, I know many pros, both from China and elsewhere who live in NYC and use a Clipper. The plies on a Clipper are: Limba-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Limba.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    You guys are funny. But of course, I love this kind of stuff.

    And I love playing with a Limba outer ply, at least when they make it thin the way Stiga does. The Clipper is a blade that has a Limba outer ply and there are a lot of professionals that use it. So I don't think this is an issue of advanced or less advanced as Mr. RicharD suggests.

    A limba outer ply is soft and slow, sort of dead, so there is a lot of dwell time and you can create a lot of spin with it. Good for serves, pushing, short game and looping. If the limba ply is thin, so that you get to the inner plies on a fuller, faster stroke, the way Stiga uses it, you get this nice snap when it reaches the inner plies and the ball flies. So you end up with a blade that has gears.

    In New York, many of the players who have come from China and played professionally and are rated over 2500 seem to use and recommend the Clipper as a good blade. I don't know if they still do, but I think, in China, this was the blade they used to train children. But again, I know many pros, both from China and elsewhere who live in NYC and use a Clipper. The plies on a Clipper are: Limba-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Limba.
    Carl how much difference are there? Because i can't really understand that it can make that big a difference, but i don't know so i'm just a bit curious.
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  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders123
    Carl how much difference are there? Because i can't really understand that it can make that big a difference, but i don't know so i'm just a bit curious.
    Anders123, do you mean:

    How much difference are there between these kinds of wood as an outer ply? Or something else?

    I think I am going to answer the question I think you are asking. A different outer ply would make a huge difference. A different thickness to the outer ply would also make a huge difference. And the wood that is directly under the outer ply impacts how the outer ply feels as well. Lets see if I can demonstrate a way of understanding this.

    Let's use three Stiga blades for the first example: An Offensive Classic feels hugely different than and Ebenholz V NCT or a Rosewood V NCT, but, aside from the top ply of the blade, the three blades have the exact same wood. Under the top ply on all three blades is: Spruce--Ayous--Spruce. With an Ebony outer ply the blade is faster than the other two. With a Rosewood outer ply it is not quite as fast as with Ebony. And the Offensive Classic has used Limba, Black Walnut and Koto as the outer ply in different incarnations. The Offensive Classic, with any of those three top plies (Koto, Limba or Black Walnut), is significantly slower than Ebenholz and Rosewood and has less touch and power than the those blades.

    Here is another example. The Primorac Off- blade from Butterfly has these plies: Limba--Limba--Ayous--Limba--Limba. The plies of Limba are thicker on the Primorac Off- than on the Stiga blades, and directly under the first ply there is another ply of Limba. All these blades from Stiga have these plys: Limba--Ayous--Ayous--Ayous--Limba, and the outer ply of Limba is very thin: Allround Classic, Allround Evolution, Tube Allround, Energy Wood, Tube Offensive. The Clipper has two more plies of Ayous inside, but otherwise the blade is the same construction. It is like a 7 ply version of any of the blades I mentioned. When you play any of those Stiga blades, the wood feels very similar on all of them. Some are slower, some are faster. Although this is so, they all still feel very similar, almost like they are slower and faster versions of the same blade. Why am I saying all this. They have almost the same exact wood as the Primorac Off- and, while they all feel similar to each other, none of them feels anything like the Primorac Off-.

    So the kind of wood used on the outer ply has a lot to do with how the blade is going to play and feel. And what is under the outer ply has a big impact on how the blade feels as well.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    Anders123, do you mean:

    How much difference are there between these kinds of wood as an outer ply? Or something else?

    I think I am going to answer the question I think you are asking. A different outer ply would make a huge difference. A different thickness to the outer ply would also make a huge difference. And the wood that is directly under the outer ply impacts how the outer ply feels as well. Lets see if I can demonstrate a way of understanding this.

    Let's use three Stiga blades for the first example: An Offensive Classic feels hugely different than and Ebenholz V NCT or a Rosewood V NCT, but, aside from the top ply of the blade, the three blades have the exact same wood. Under the top ply on all three blades is: Spruce--Ayous--Spruce. With an Ebony outer ply the blade is faster than the other two. With a Rosewood outer ply it is not quite as fast as with Ebony. And the Offensive Classic has used Limba, Black Walnut and Koto as the outer ply in different incarnations. The Offensive Classic, with any of those three top plies (Koto, Limba or Black Walnut), is significantly slower than Ebenholz and Rosewood and has less touch and power than the those blades.

    Here is another example. The Primorac Off- blade from Butterfly has these plies: Limba--Limba--Ayous--Limba--Limba. The plies of Limba are thicker on the Primorac Off- than on the Stiga blades, and directly under the first ply there is another ply of Limba. All these blades from Stiga have these plys: Limba--Ayous--Ayous--Ayous--Limba, and the outer ply of Limba is very thin: Allround Classic, Allround Evolution, Tube Allround, Energy Wood, Tube Offensive. The Clipper has two more plies of Ayous inside, but otherwise the blade is the same construction. It is like a 7 ply version of any of the blades I mentioned. When you play any of those Stiga blades, the wood feels very similar on all of them. Some are slower, some are faster. Although this is so, they all still feel very similar, almost like they are slower and faster versions of the same blade. Why am I saying all this. They have almost the same exact wood as the Primorac Off- and, while they all feel similar to each other, none of them feels anything like the Primorac Off-.

    So the kind of wood used on the outer ply has a lot to do with how the blade is going to play and feel. And what is under the outer ply has a big impact on how the blade feels as well.
    Thank you for the answer and sorry for my bad formulation of thw question. You understood it as it was supposed to be.
    I think it is a bit incredible how much difference there can be just from replacing the types of wood in the blade. I haven't really tried many different blades and rubber, but i do have the Butterfly Primorac OFF- so it could be fun to try some of the Stiga blades.
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  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders123
    Thank you for the answer and sorry for my bad formulation of thw question. You understood it as it was supposed to be.
    I think it is a bit incredible how much difference there can be just from replacing the types of wood in the blade. I haven't really tried many different blades and rubber, but i do have the Butterfly Primorac OFF- so it could be fun to try some of the Stiga blades.
    This is what I do: any time I play with someone who has a different setup, one I have not tried, I ask the person if I can see what it plays like and I hit with it.

    I also think, because of what I do for a living, I end up feeling more of what is in the racket than most people. I teach yoga and a good part of what I am doing when I practice yoga is feeling what is happening inside my body. When I am teaching I am seeing what other people feel. It is strange. People sometimes wonder why I have a pretty good idea of what they are feeling, even before they do. Sometimes they are not aware of what they are feeling until I bring their attention to it. Like if someone has tension in their neck I will ask them how their neck feels. Sometimes they will say it feels fine. Then I will make them put their head in a different position and then back to the one where there was tension, and then they will feel that their neck did not feel fine. This is an easy example but I can often see if a person is feeling a stretch in their hamstring or in the back of their knee. I can see if they are releasing into the stretch or fighting against it. I can even see some of the emotions the work they are doing is causing them to feel.

    And since I really like exploring these kinds of tactile sensations in myself, when I play table tennis, one of the things I like most about it, is feeling how different kinds of ball contact feel: how you get the rubber to grab the ball as the ball sinks in a certain amount for certain shots, feeling when the ball is just grazed for other shots, feeling when you make full-on direct contact and get the ball to sink all the way in to the wood, feeling the ball roll across the rubber when you give it heavy spin. It feels to me like the racket is an extension of my hand and I love to explore and feel those different things and how different rubbers and different woods feel and play.

    Hinoki is a soft springy wood. To me it feels better when it is in an all Hinoki blade. Part of the reason is, it is such a good wood for table tennis rackets that I would not want to minimize that feeling by adding other woods to it. When it is paired with other woods, or with carbon, you do not get as much of that Hinoki feeling. When it is in an all Hinoki blade, it has this beautiful feeling that is really not like any other wood I have felt. It is good for touch shots because it is soft and you get a lot of dwell time so it is good for helping you spin the ball more. But it is springy so that when you swing harder the blade helps the rubber produce an even better catapult effect. It does not feel crisp like Limba over Ayous, but it has a great feeling of its own: a little denser and more subtle, but it gives you a lot of control with the power. Hinoki blades have more gears than other blades and as a result, the ratings are often inaccurate. For example, most blades might be easy to categorize as Off, Off-, All+ etc. But a Hinoki blade might be All+ for certain shots, Off- minus for other shots and Off for others. And the cool thing is, it is All+ when you want that, and Off- when you want that, and Off when you want that. Because the wood is responsive to how hard you swing.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 04-10-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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    #12
    Photino and amultart too have hinoki as the outer ply, but but with zylon sandwiching kiri in the middle. Zylon give a bit more dwell time than carbon, but it lacks feel I think.
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    #13
    Hi!
    I really hoped for us, but here is many bad informations. But I think that somebody write more than me now !
    Outer ply :
    Hinoki : Good feel, soft and really stiff. Main I play on softer rubbers so that's not for me
    Limba : here is the biggest problem, because here is many types. Soft limba, for example : grubba all+ , stiga blades : all evo, all classic, clipper, energy wood;
    and Hard limba : Old primorac (japan version). For me soft limba is not much "soft" how in hinoki, but is ofter is "soft" and FLEXIBLE!! and this is not good idea for soft rubbers. Only
    when you play so far from the table. Hard Limba?? I try main on primorac and.. you must have rubbers with big catapult (i think) and i only don't tested this option that.. is only
    suspects and last hope for limba !
    Koto : For me, really good feel!! Not soft, but not too much hard. Never flexible for me, but not too much stiff, but Medium for direction to --> hard and stiff.


    This is all the most important outer ply. These are only (and not only) my long-term tests. And please write what you think. How do you feel?

    Thanks

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    #14
    Why that topic died?

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    #15
    I think this thread is like a glove on Carls hand, just perfect for him!

    I am very amazed of the STIGA blades, the way Carl describes them. That they seem to be faster and slower versions of the same blade is perfectly logical, but it has never crossed my mind... Maybe this is why STIGA is known all over the world for their high standard blades? It fits basically every playing style, and it is not too difficult to change from one STIGA blade to another

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    Last edited by Anders; 04-16-2012 at 09:33 PM.
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    #16
    Carl wrote much and thanks for him, but i hope for other too and Carl had a few errors.., look at my last post at hinoki, limba, koto and here is okay but i need and serch more information
    Please write something if you know about it

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    #17
    which outer ply has the most dwell time? i want a blade with lots of dwell time but when i hit hard i need the inner plies to be stiff in order to give speed . So what do you suggest ?
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    which outer ply has the most dwell time? i want a blade with lots of dwell time but when i hit hard i need the inner plies to be stiff in order to give speed . So what do you suggest ?
    I just wrote an answer to your post in the "Composition of Blades" thread.

    Here is the link to the page:

    http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/fo...f-Blades/page2

    But I guess I can be like one of those odd scholars who likes to quote what he wrote in other books as though it is a source for the information being presented:


    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I would try either, Limba or Hinoki:

    1) A blade with Limba outside and Ayous inside. I like the ones where the limba is thin and there is only one ply of limba but, there are lots of good blades that have limba and ayous. Examples of ones I like are: All+ rating: Stiga Allround NCT, Stiga Tuba Allround; Off- rating: Stiga Energy Wood; Off rating: Stiga Clipper.

    2) The other option I would go with is a Hinoki blade. Blades that are all Hinoki are amazing. Two examples: Off- rating: Darker 7p-2A: Off rating: Darker 7p-2A.7t. They are similar, but the second one is one half mm thicker and so a decent amount faster. Those are two of the best blades out there. The amount of speed, spin, dwell time and control you get from those Darker blades is pretty cool. The Darker 7p-2A.7t is probably the blade I like the most of all that I have tried. The only thing I think comes close is the Butterfly Innerforce ZLF. But, I like the feel of all wood and Hinoki a little better.

    Limba might have a little more dwell time than Hinoki. Limba works better with other kinds of wood as the inner plies, but in my opinion, Hinoki always feels better when it is on a blade that is all Hinoki. And when you have an all Hinoki blade, there is something really unique and hard to explain about how good that wood is for blades. It is like you have a blade with extra gears. Slow and controlled for touch and lots of speed for speed and power.
    hahahaha. I made myself laugh by quoting myself.

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  19. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MaLong#1
    Carl wrote much and thanks for him, but i hope for other too and Carl had a few errors.., look at my last post at hinoki, limba, koto and here is okay but i need and serch more information
    Please write something if you know about it
    hmmmmm. Not so sure I agree with you.

    But it is true, I did not write anything about what woods work better with different kinds of rubbers. I just stuck to the wood. But I don't know if that is an "error".

    I guess one of the problems with all of what you have tried to write is, you obviously speak some language well, and it is probably not English. So it is actually hard to tell what you are saying. Too bad we cannot get you to write your thoughts in your native language and have it translated into good English.

    What dialect do you speak?
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-03-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I just wrote an answer to your post in the "Composition of Blades" thread.

    Here is the link to the page:

    http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/fo...f-Blades/page2

    But I guess I can be like one of those odd scholars who likes to quote what he wrote in other books as though it is a source for the information being presented:




    hahahaha. I made myself laugh by quoting myself.
    hahaha dude ur awesome

    Butterfly M. Maze: limba-arylate/carbon-limba-ayous-limba-arylate/carbon-limba

    Dawei GTS: hinoki-arylate/carbon-ayous-arylate/carbon-hinoki

    i was between those two blades , currently i play with boll alc and im exited with the large sweet spot . So i need something with arylate , whats your opinion ? should i try maze and spend 90 Euro (i have good relationships with the seller) or buy GTS for only 25 26 Euros . I believe if maze is better i wont think about the money because i will keep the blade for many years . what do you think?
    I suck real bad so I train to suck less

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