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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    USDC, you seem to be asking rhetoric questions here. But we all know you enough to expect that you have some reasons to ask what you ask. I just don't see them, care to explain???
    USDC's questions are clear enough.
    The second question may be hard to answer without doing a simulation.
    USDC is trying to get you to think and learn instead of simply repeating myths. It is sometimes hard to tell how much of the arc is simply due to gravity.
    What Butterfly didn't say is that all three rubbers could generate exactly the same trajectory with very slight difference in the stroke.

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    USDC's questions are clear enough.
    Well, they appeared clearer than that, hence my question. And also I think the JustANoob's post was good/fair and it should be sorted out, IMHO.

    USDC is trying to get you to think and learn instead of simply repeating myths. It is sometimes hard to tell how much of the arc is simply due to gravity.
    What Butterfly didn't say is that all three rubbers could generate exactly the same trajectory with very slight difference in the stroke.
    OK, so I see it this way. I don't really care what throw angle a rubber has. I play with the rubbers I play with, because I like the feeeling, prefer it against other rubbers, so to say. That's all that matters for me. But since I am in discussion - when I read langel's post I thought following (bellow):

    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    In fact it's just the opposite.

    Hard sponges with hard top sheets have very high through angle.
    Hard sponges with soft top sheets have high through angle.
    Soft sponges with hard top sheets have mid-high through angle
    Soft sponges with soft top-sheet have low through angle.

    The through angle depends on how deep the ball penetrates, plus what area of the ball is in contact with the top sheet.
    That is also what I thought so far. But what you write above seems to ignore the area of the contact between the ball and the top-sheet. So if the bat is say in angle 80 deg and the ball comes, then if it penetrates deeper, it sort of gets lower (and it rotates tiny bit more into the bat so to say), and that would (of itself) make the throw angle lower. But, the contact area increases at the same time, and this helps the bat to grab the ball a bit more, and as it is moving upwards, to throw it higher - so it is opposing. In other words, I thought the softer top-sheet makes the throw angle higher, not lower - well, so I thought.

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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Well, they appeared clearer than that, hence my question. And also I think the JustANoob's post was good/fair and it should be sorted out, IMHO.



    OK, so I see it this way. I don't really care what throw angle a rubber has. I play with the rubbers I play with, because I like the feeeling, prefer it against other rubbers, so to say. That's all that matters for me. But since I am in discussion - when I read langel's post I thought following (bellow):



    That is also what I thought so far. But what you write above seems to ignore the area of the contact between the ball and the top-sheet. So if the bat is say in angle 80 deg and the ball comes, then if it penetrates deeper, it sort of gets lower (and it rotates tiny bit more into the bat so to say), and that would (of itself) make the throw angle lower. But, the contact area increases at the same time, and this helps the bat to grab the ball a bit more, and as it is moving upwards, to throw it higher - so it is opposing. In other words, I thought the softer top-sheet makes the throw angle higher, not lower - well, so I thought.

    Grabbing the ball to RElease it at higher point doesn't mean that the "rubber" has a higher through angle, no matter the hardness of the rubber. It's a matter of style and experience, and the resulting stroke may have a well expressed arc, or it may not, it will depend on the particular stroke mechanics.

    Think about that - many players like to use softer rubbers on their BH, because it is better for blocks and it's faster with softer hits. Softer rubbers are better for more passive play over the table and at close distance, easier to control and with more precise direction and placement. All that is because the softer rubber provides tighter ball rebound angle. In fact this rebound angle is what we call "low or high through angle".. Harder rubbers provide wider rebound angle and that's "higher through angle". And I've said that there are some other factors, that may change the result - sponge/top sheet hardness combination, springiness, player's style and experience.
    Some examples - in the Xiom Omega family the Omega 5 Asia is with the highest through angle, it's with hard sponge and hard top sheet. And it's best for real looping, not so good for blocks and not very precise on spikes. Omega 7 Asia is with harder sponge, but with softer top sheet and this combo makes it with almost the same through angle, but much better for blocking and smashing /Omega 5 Tour has the same quality of blocking and smashing, but has a lower through angle/. Omega 7 Tour is very hard, harder than Omega 7 Asia, also with soft top sheet, but it's more springy than the Omega 7 Asia and it makes it with lower through angle, though not much, a bit higher than the Omega 5 Tour. Best for very aggressive and "nervous" players like Hugo, but difficult to control for lower expertise players. Such players will hit the ball to the ceiling or to land on the next table and would say "what a high through angle".

    Last edited by langel; 10-15-2021 at 09:56 PM.

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    And I've said that there are some other factors, that may change the result - sponge/top sheet hardness combination, springiness, player's style and experience.
    If you are evaluating equipment you need to remove the human factor. Style and experience does not affect the equipment.
    You are implying the throw angle changes as a function of the player.


    Some examples - in the Xiom Omega family the Omega 5 Asia is with the highest through angle, it's with hard sponge and hard top sheet.
    Show us an equation that uses hardness to calculate speed and spin.

    What really matters is the normal and tangential coefficient of restitution. These values are functions of elasticity not hardness and the values are also independent of who is holding the paddle.

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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    USDC, you seem to be asking rhetoric questions here. But we all know you enough to expect that you have some reasons to ask what you ask. I just don't see them, care to explain???
    I am suggesting that, most people don't really think about what they mean by throw angle and so you could have 20 different people with 20 different definitions. And everyone thinks everyone else means what they mean by throw angle. But....most people are not thinking about what they actually mean.
    ==

    But I think if people looked at the Spin to Speed ratio, then that may be what they actually mean by the throw angle. A rubber that is faster, but less spinny, will often get called a low throw angle rubber. The ball will have a flatter trajectory as a result of the added speed and reduced spin....both those qualities cause a ball's trajectory to be flatter: less arc, or curve, or magnus effect, how ever you want to describe it.

    ==

    A rubber with higher spin and not quite as much speed will create a ball with more arc and the added grab from the rubber will cause the ball to leave the racket at a higher angle.

    ==

    I could be wrong. But, on those faster, flatter shots, the ball would have to leave the racket at a lower angle or it would not land on the table. If the ball was hit higher, the flattened arc would not cause the ball to arc town to the table so the ball would go long. When the ball has more spin, the ball can leave the racket at a higher angle and still arc down onto the table.

    ==

    So, since everybody seems to define throw angle differently, I would recommend people think more about the speed/spin ratio of rubbers. It may give clearer information. And they may not actually be different even if people don't realize that what they actually mean when they talk about throw angle is the amount of spin relative to the amount of speed created when using the rubber.

    ==

    Think about it, a rubber that has more grip and gives you more spin, if you had the bat oriented vertically and hit the racket with shot that had heavy topspin, the ball would bounce up and it would bounce up pretty high on rebound. A rubber with less grip that creates less spin, if it was hit with the same exact shot, the ball might still bounce up, but it would not go up as high.

    So, would boosting cause the rubber to create more speed? Would boosting cause the rubber to create more spin? If you say yes to both, which would be increased more? Would it increase or decrease the spin to speed ratio?
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-16-2021 at 12:25 AM.
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Think about it, a rubber that has more grip and gives you more spin, if you had the bat oriented vertically and hit the racket with shot that had heavy topspin, the ball would bounce up and it would bounce up pretty high on rebound. A rubber with less grip that creates less spin, if it was hit with the same exact shot, the ball might still bounce up, but it would not go up as high.

    Exactly.

    The only thing that may be not very important for evaluating through angle, is the grip - you may have two rubbers with equal grip, but different through angles.
    But the scenario you describe is very good to visualize the through angle.
    So - in that scenario the top spin ball will rebound from the harder rubber higher, because it has wider rebound angle. The softer rubber has a tighter rebound angle and the top spin ball will rebound lower.
    Spin/speed ratio and springiness are additional factors, which may affect the general basics.


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    #27
    It would be more useful to simply think of the spin/speed ratio because without the spin part of the equation it makes no difference whether the ball comes off the racket high or low. You need the spin part of the equation for the ball to hit the table and not sail long.

    By the way:

    Definitions:

    Through: moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).
    "she walked through the doorway into the living room"

    Throw: propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand.
    "I threw a brick through the window"

    I think, in the the THROW ANGLE, it is about the angle the ball is PROPELLED from the blade face. Through would mean it goes through something. So I have absolutely no idea why some of you are writing THROUGH ANGLE unless it is that English is not your native language. But THROUGH ANGLE makes no sense and means nothing. Unless it is the angle at which the ball will pass through the racket when there is a big hole in the racket.

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    #28


    So, when the ball passes through that hole.....maybe that is the through angle.

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    #29
    By the way, BrokenBall's statement is correct. I was trying to get you guys to think about what Throw Angle actually means.

    It would be worth analyzing what you think it means. I think people get really confused by their uninspected ideas of what they THINK they mean by the term. I think when people start thinking they want a "low throw rubber" they don't realize they are saying they want a rubber that gets less spin. And with a rubber that has a high spin/speed ratio you can still make shots with a high arc or with a lower longer trajectory based on how you contact the ball and how fast you hit the ball.

    So, generally, my money is on the idea that most people are confused about what Throw Angle means and often people end up thinking that they want a Low Throw Rubber without realizing it means they want a rubber with less spin that may be faster without realizing that what they really want may be to learn how to create shots with a longer flatter trajectory. And you can make a shot with a longer flatter trajectory with any rubber as long as you have skill and know how....so people look for things like Throw Angle to replace a skill they should actually be looking to develop. The equipment can't replace skill. And it would be worth inspecting what that term Throw Angle actually means.

    It is worth thinking about it. Can a rubber be supper spinny without gripping the ball?

    Can a rubber release the ball at a lower angle while being super grippy and therefore SUPER SPINNY?

    Would something like speed glue change the way the topsheet grabs the ball?

    If you want super low throw rubbers, TRY ANTISPIN. With no grip, the ball falls right down. Or old, dead, used up rubbers. Those are low throw.
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    #30
    BTW: if a rubber has a "high throw angle" on topspin shots, what happens when you are pushing or chopping with it. Will the ball leave the racket higher or lower?
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    USDC's questions are clear enough.
    The second question may be hard to answer without doing a simulation.
    USDC is trying to get you to think and learn instead of simply repeating myths. It is sometimes hard to tell how much of the arc is simply due to gravity.
    What Butterfly didn't say is that all three rubbers could generate exactly the same trajectory with very slight difference in the stroke.
    Said differently, you guys should read the sentence that is highlighted from BrokenBall's post I just quoted.
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Grabbing the ball to RElease it at higher point doesn't mean that the "rubber" has a higher through angle, no matter the hardness of the rubber. It's a matter of style and experience, and the resulting stroke may have a well expressed arc, or it may not, it will depend on the particular stroke mechanics.
    Hi langel, thanks for the reply. I'm trying to find self-consistent understanding of it :-)

    Think about that - many players like to use softer rubbers on their BH, because it is better for blocks and it's faster with softer hits. Softer rubbers are better for more passive play over the table and at close distance, easier to control and with more precise direction and placement. All that is because the softer rubber provides tighter ball rebound angle. In fact this rebound angle is what we call "low or high through angle".. Harder rubbers provide wider rebound angle and that's "higher through angle". And I've said that there are some other factors, that may change the result - sponge/top sheet hardness combination, springiness, player's style and experience.
    I understand what you are saying. Basically what I need is to know "why" and "how" it happens that tha ball rebounds from the softer rubber with tighter angle. And thank to all your (and Carl's and BB's) posts now I think this: as the ball with rotation (from Carl's recent example) penetrates deeper to the softer rubber, and stops and then rebounds, the deeper decompression from the softer rubber makes it shoot straighter than the shallower decompression from the harder rubber. Is that so?

    Some examples - in the Xiom Omega family the Omega 5 Asia is with the highest through angle, it's with hard sponge and hard top sheet. And it's best for real looping, not so good for blocks and not very precise on spikes. Omega 7 Asia is with harder sponge, but with softer top sheet and this combo makes it with almost the same through angle, but much better for blocking and smashing /Omega 5 Tour has the same quality of blocking and smashing, but has a lower through angle/. Omega 7 Tour is very hard, harder than Omega 7 Asia, also with soft top sheet, but it's more springy than the Omega 7 Asia and it makes it with lower through angle, though not much, a bit higher than the Omega 5 Tour. Best for very aggressive and "nervous" players like Hugo, but difficult to control for lower expertise players. Such players will hit the ball to the ceiling or to land on the next table and would say "what a high through angle".
    I only played with Omega 5 Euro for a short while, but I believe your analysis of Omega rubbers. It is valuable of itself, but here we are after the principle, why/how, the mechanism, transferable to other rubbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    If you are evaluating equipment you need to remove the human factor. Style and experience does not affect the equipment.
    You are implying the throw angle changes as a function of the player.
    BB, I agree, the throw angle is independent of human. I think langel didn't mean that throw angle changes from player to player, I think he meant that in relation to the grabbing/releasing the ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I am suggesting that, most people don't really think about what they mean by throw angle and so you could have 20 different people with 20 different definitions. And everyone thinks everyone else means what they mean by throw angle. But....most people are not thinking about what they actually mean.
    ==

    But I think if people looked at the Spin to Speed ratio, then that may be what they actually mean by the throw angle. A rubber that is faster, but less spinny, will often get called a low throw angle rubber. The ball will have a flatter trajectory as a result of the added speed and reduced spin....both those qualities cause a ball's trajectory to be flatter: less arc, or curve, or magnus effect, how ever you want to describe it.

    ==

    A rubber with higher spin and not quite as much speed will create a ball with more arc and the added grab from the rubber will cause the ball to leave the racket at a higher angle.

    ==

    I could be wrong. But, on those faster, flatter shots, the ball would have to leave the racket at a lower angle or it would not land on the table. If the ball was hit higher, the flattened arc would not cause the ball to arc town to the table so the ball would go long. When the ball has more spin, the ball can leave the racket at a higher angle and still arc down onto the table.

    ==

    So, since everybody seems to define throw angle differently, I would recommend people think more about the speed/spin ratio of rubbers. It may give clearer information. And they may not actually be different even if people don't realize that what they actually mean when they talk about throw angle is the amount of spin relative to the amount of speed created when using the rubber.

    ==

    Think about it, a rubber that has more grip and gives you more spin, if you had the bat oriented vertically and hit the racket with shot that had heavy topspin, the ball would bounce up and it would bounce up pretty high on rebound. A rubber with less grip that creates less spin, if it was hit with the same exact shot, the ball might still bounce up, but it would not go up as high.
    Carl, thank you, what you write is very well-arranged and easy to follow.

    So, would boosting cause the rubber to create more speed? Would boosting cause the rubber to create more spin? If you say yes to both, which would be increased more? Would it increase or decrease the spin to speed ratio?
    Great question! Boosting imho increases both a bit. Which more, it is kind of hard to answer. It depends on the stroke I'm trying to do. So for example when trying to loop a serve which goes over the side-edge, or when a bit jammed and trying to FH loop underspin ball, when you can't use full power, then when the rubber is un-boosted (or booster weared off) there is less tolerance for error, it is easier for me with boosted rubber. On full power shoots there is not so much difference, just a bit, perhaps on maximum full power where you really have to pre-rotate the hips like when doing gyaku-tsuki :-) (I was meaning to write this, it just feels identical in hips :-) perhaps the un-boosted rubber could reward more, but not much. Still the difference between the two in H3 case, is much less then difference to rubbers with slightly bigger bubbles (still small) like BlueGrip C1/C2, and even more to hybrid with yet bigger bubbles like RZ, and even more to "standard" rubbers. I am digressing now. I do not have precise answer.

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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    I understand what you are saying. Basically what I need is to know "why" and "how" it happens that tha ball rebounds from the softer rubber with tighter angle. And thank to all your (and Carl's and BB's) posts now I think this: as the ball with rotation (from Carl's recent example) penetrates deeper to the softer rubber, and stops and then rebounds, the deeper decompression from the softer rubber makes it shoot straighter than the shallower decompression from the harder rubber. Is that so?

    I only played with Omega 5 Euro for a short while, but I believe your analysis of Omega rubbers. It is valuable of itself, but here we are after the principle, why/how, the mechanism, transferable to other rubbers.

    BB, I agree, the throw angle is independent of human. I think langel didn't mean that throw angle changes from player to player, I think he meant that in relation to the grabbing/releasing the ball.

    That's right.
    The depth of penetration is a basic factor. But the top sheet hardness is important too. Top sheets with different hardness will deform differently. That's why in my first posting I wrote about 4 generally different types of sponge/top sheet combinations.
    I gave examples with the Xiom Omega rubbers to describe part of the above plus the springiness factor, and though these are particular examples, they are following the same principles and the mechanism of their performance can be transfered to other rubbers with similar architecture.


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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by langel

    That's right.
    The depth of penetration is a basic factor. But the top sheet hardness is important too. Top sheets with different hardness will deform differently. That's why in my first posting I wrote about 4 generally different types of sponge/top sheet combinations.
    I gave examples with the Xiom Omega rubbers to describe part of the above plus the springiness factor, and though these are particular examples, they are following the same principles and the mechanism of their performance can be transfered to other rubbers with similar architecture.

    Show us an equation where hardness or softness is used to compute speed or spin.

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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Show us an equation where hardness or softness is used to compute speed or spin.
    BB, you sometimes ask people to provide some equation, like you are trying to silence them down. It is contra-productive, especially, because you don't provide this equation yourself, and also because I'd say majority is not after the equation. It would be better if you in plain words *visually* explain, how does the softness of the rubber top-sheet make the ball react so and so. For example langel says softer top-sheet makes the throw angle less. Is this correct? If so, how does it work. He didn't say. If you want to demonstrate you know more, and also if you don't want to demonstrate it, tell me. That is what I don't know and want to know. Not an equation. At other occasions your posts are useful for me...

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    BB, you sometimes ask people to provide some equation, like you are trying to silence them down. It is contra-productive, especially, because you don't provide this equation yourself, and also because I'd say majority is not after the equation. It would be better if you in plain words *visually* explain, how does the softness of the rubber top-sheet make the ball react so and so. For example langel says softer top-sheet makes the throw angle less. Is this correct? If so, how does it work. He didn't say. If you want to demonstrate you know more, and also if you don't want to demonstrate it, tell me. That is what I don't know and want to know. Not an equation. At other occasions your posts are useful for me...

    Oh, I thought that I've explained it very well, and not only in this thread.
    Should I draw some sketches? I believe that everyone can do it.

    You have the BTY T05, 80 and 64 arc picture, I have spoken many times about it and I can say that it's absolutely correct, and it has been confirmed by many pro and top players. There is no doubt about it.
    Though brokenball has different feeling and it is documented in this forum.

    Before starting to draw think about the fact that T05, 80 and 64 have exactly the same sponge, all of them.
    But their top sheets is with different pimple architecture, differing mainly in density.
    The pimples of T64 are with the lowest density /greatest distance between pimples/ and it makes it "softer", though the top sheet material is the same as of the other tenergies. With that lower density of the pimples the top sheet is able to "hug" the ball firmer round the contact area /and the contact area is bigger/, and that "hug" tightens the rebound angle.
    The top sheet of T05 is with greater pimples density, which cause the ball impact to be distributed on greater sponge area, the top sheet deforms flatter through greater area and doesn't "hug" the ball so tight, so the ball can rebound on wider angle, depending on it's incoming spin. A top spin will rebound higher, under spin will rebound lower, side spin will rebound wider.
    Aside from pimples size, geometry and density architecture, the hardness/softness of the top sheets can be achieved by the material.


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    #37
    T64 definitely has a lower throw angle than T05. So does T80. How does that demonstrate your theory? I honestly don't think throw angle has anything to do with softness or hardness of the rubber.

    And T05, the Tenergy with the higher throw angle of those two rubbers, gives you MORE SPIN AND LESS SPEED. T80 is faster than T05 and gets less spin, and T64 is faster than either and gets less spin than either.

    So, to me, those Tenergy rubbers seem to contradict your theory directly.

    - T05 - slowest, most spin, reputed to have a the Highest throw angle.
    - T80 - faster than T05, slower than T64, less spin than T05 more spin than T64, throw angle lower than T05, higher than T64
    - T64 - Fastest of the 3, least spin of the three, and lowest throw angle of the three.

    And all three rubbers have the same exact sponge and the same exact rubber is used in the topsheet. What creates those differences noted above, as Langel said, is the pimple structure.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-17-2021 at 02:40 AM.
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    The heretic pnachtwey got into a lot of trouble for asking that question on another forum. The forum wanted to burn him at the stake.
    10 friggin' years later, I still can't get my head around how pnachtwey blew a fuse after 2010 and set himself on fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    The funny thing is pnachtwey used the term in his own response(surprisingly reasonable) for roughly the first year, before all of a sudden becoming self-aware like an AI and decided to go on a personal crusade to destroy any dialogue at every mention of the term.

    It's been 7 years and I honestly think it's high time we got past the argument over nomenclature. It's getting nowhere. Any normal person would simply treat you like a cuckoo when you tell them "throw angle? I'm offended by that." Nobody cares if that term is not your cup of tea. Just move on.

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Oh, I thought that I've explained it very well, and not only in this thread.
    Should I draw some sketches? I believe that everyone can do it.

    You have the BTY T05, 80 and 64 arc picture, I have spoken many times about it and I can say that it's absolutely correct, and it has been confirmed by many pro and top players. There is no doubt about it.
    Though brokenball has different feeling and it is documented in this forum.

    Before starting to draw think about the fact that T05, 80 and 64 have exactly the same sponge, all of them.
    Thank you langel, that is exactly the kind of description I was hoping for.

    But their top sheets is with different pimple architecture, differing mainly in density.
    The pimples of T64 are with the lowest density /greatest distance between pimples/ and it makes it "softer", though the top sheet material is the same as of the other tenergies. With that lower density of the pimples the top sheet is able to "hug" the ball firmer round the contact area /and the contact area is bigger/, and that "hug" tightens the rebound angle.
    I thought that the greater contact area would result in higher throw. The ball with spin would have greater area to apply that spin on, better grip, and that would result in wider angle. Like when you push off with the foot, if you have greater area, the chance to slide is less. It is actually also what zeio says in this thread he linked, so I'm glad this idea is not totally off. And I thought that the softer top-sheet (I didn't distinguish the 2 softnesses, the apparent softness due to bigger distance between pimples, and the real softness of the material, as you mention.) would result in greater contact area. Which is also what you call firmer "hug". Now these look like to be in contradiction. Obviously I don't doubt what BTF says, that the T64 with lowest pimple density and apparent softness has lowest throw of the 3 rubbers. And also I agree now when you say "Soft sponges with soft top-sheet have low through angle." (meaning apparent softness due to pimples) But I doubt now, that it is this "hug" you describe, that tightens the angle. I don't know, but I doubt it. See bellow.

    The top sheet of T05 is with greater pimples density, which cause the ball impact to be distributed on greater sponge area, the top sheet deforms flatter through greater area and doesn't "hug" the ball so tight, so the ball can rebound on wider angle, depending on it's incoming spin. A top spin will rebound higher, under spin will rebound lower, side spin will rebound wider.
    Aside from pimples size, geometry and density architecture, the hardness/softness of the top sheets can be achieved by the material.
    I like the mechanism you describe here. And it should also work the other way round. So for T64 with lower pimple density, the ball impact is less distributed and the sponge deforms deeper at the pimples in question. Also the top-sheet deforms differently. Now it can be the deeper decompression makes the ball shoot straighter. I don't know.

    Anyways, it seems there is a lot of history involved. I don't want to stir this much more. I learned what I learned, the exact mechanism is not clear to me. It's fine. Thanks again.

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    #40
    There are no contradictions at all.
    To better visualize and understand it, just draw a sketch for what is happening with the top sheet and how the contact with ball looks like.

    I said "The top sheet of T05 is with greater pimples density, which cause the ball impact to be distributed on greater sponge area, the top sheet deforms flatter through greater area and doesn't "hug" the ball so tight" but maybe I have to clarify that this Greater area of flatter deformation is not a Greater area of contact with the ball, but Smaller even when the sponge compression is the same as of T64, and as a result the ball has a wider free angle to rebound.

    A highly exaggerated visualization - imagine that the top sheet is not a rubber sheet, but a metal sheet. During the contact it will compress the sponge, but will not deform to "hug" the ball. And the ball will have eventual 180 degrees free to rebound.

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