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  1. Tango K is offline
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    #41
    Gosh saves the queen. At some points, science is really overcooked!!!

    For me, it's quite straightforward. you throw something into a thin piece of metal, it bounces that thing back. After that it still vibrates hence we see it "flexing" and hear the metal sound. A blade works pretty much the same. It bounces out the ball and keeps vibrating (either by flexing its head or by compressing / decompressing its surface continuously, or actually both). And hence we "feel" the contact. I player with good techniques never change a stroke while they are feeling that stroke itself. It's too late. The stroke is done when you started it (right after backswing). But such a player always changes the next stroke based on the feedback, deliberately or subconsciously. (The better you are, the more deliberate it is). It's that dead simple.

    Science and engineering (experiments and measurements) come into the complicated bits here and there. Like you can make a bat with high frequency of vibration (hard feel) and still slow or a bat with low frequency of vibration (soft feel, wood feel) and still fast. Or a bat that has low frequency of vibration (soft feel) but vibrate in a small amount / shorter time (dead feel) so that you still feel soft when hitting hard (not too shaky). blah blah blah. (All these examples are reverse of the norms btw)

    Also, a bat that helps you distinguish variations at contact is easier to spin with. Because spin is very sensitive to how you contact the ball. And also, how you feel the vibrations depend on how you hold the bat. Because bats vibrate differently and different points. And a thicker handle makes you hold the bat differently, hence you feel the vibrations differently.

    A practical player is not going to speak this language. He's going to say - that bat is spinnier (in actuality that bat is PROBABLY easier to spin with for him), this bat has more dwell at high impact shot (in actuality that bat PROBABLY gives him softer feel when he hits hard). I wouldn't expect a practical player to correct these pieces of speeches. Trying to feel these things is already quite a bunch of work already. And also, by the time he has corrected everything to be so scientifically-corrected, I wouldn't be able to understand a thing!!! 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

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    #42
    "Gosh save the queen". I'm scientifically correcting my language.

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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Gosh saves the queen. At some points, science is really overcooked!!!

    For me, it's quite straightforward. you throw something into a thin piece of metal, it bounces that thing back. After that it still vibrates hence we see it "flexing" and hear the metal sound. A blade works pretty much the same. It bounces out the ball and keeps vibrating (either by flexing its head or by compressing / decompressing its surface continuously, or actually both). And hence we "feel" the contact. I player with good techniques never change a stroke while they are feeling that stroke itself. It's too late. The stroke is done when you started it (right after backswing). But such a player always changes the next stroke based on the feedback, deliberately or subconsciously. (The better you are, the more deliberate it is). It's that dead simple.

    Science and engineering (experiments and measurements) come into the complicated bits here and there. Like you can make a bat with high frequency of vibration (hard feel) and still slow or a bat with low frequency of vibration (soft feel, wood feel) and still fast. Or a bat that has low frequency of vibration (soft feel) but vibrate in a small amount / shorter time (dead feel) so that you still feel soft when hitting hard (not too shaky). blah blah blah. (All these examples are reverse of the norms btw)

    Also, a bat that helps you distinguish variations at contact is easier to spin with. Because spin is very sensitive to how you contact the ball. And also, how you feel the vibrations depend on how you hold the bat. Because bats vibrate differently and different points. And a thicker handle makes you hold the bat differently, hence you feel the vibrations differently.

    A practical player is not going to speak this language. He's going to say - that bat is spinnier (in actuality that bat is PROBABLY easier to spin with for him), this bat has more dwell at high impact shot (in actuality that bat PROBABLY gives him softer feel when he hits hard). I wouldn't expect a practical player to correct these pieces of speeches. Trying to feel these things is already quite a bunch of work already. And also, by the time he has corrected everything to be so scientifically-corrected, I wouldn't be able to understand a thing!!!
    Yes, but would a soft springy outer ply like Hinoki kick the ball out faster when it decompresses compared to a different outer ply like koto? Do certain outer plies provide more kick?

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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BryanY
    Slightly different question here. When the outer ply of the blade compresses due to ball impact. Does the outer ply kick the ball out when it decompresses? Or has the ball already left the bat once the outer ply finishes compressing?
    This is an extremely good question and the key to a lot of things. You get Peter Points for asking the question.
    First, the outer ply is usually very thin so the outer ply will not compress much and certainly not as much as the rubber.
    I have always had the impression that the outer plies were more of a protection for the inner core. The outer core is better to glue to than balsa. Do the outer layers make a difference, yes but not as much as the inner core. There is much more inner core so it will compress more especially if is it made of balsa wood like my Firewall Plus. I have also read someplace that 1 ply hinoki paddles are among the fasted. I have not verified this yet

    I think the key to your question is does the rubber stay in contact with the ball when decompressing. The answer is it depends.
    I have posted high speed of my Toxic 5 returning balls. It is easy to see the ball bounce of the paddle before the paddle springs back. However, this is an extreme case of a slow paddle. I have videos of balls bouncing off my Firewall plus. The Firewall plus doesn't seem to flex or move at all


    (I’m not talking about the the core of the blade flexing, I’m talking about the outer ply compressing and decompressing.)

    I don't have any data on it but I bet the compression of the outer layers is EXTREMELY small compared to the inner core and the rubber.

    If I where to model this I would need to know how the outer layers compress compared to the inner core. This would be like modeling the inner core as a spring with the outer layer being a different spring in series. Right now there is no data I am aware of.

    I key question is how much does a TT blade flex?
    Has anyone done any tests?
    How , much force does a TT ball impact generate at different impact speeds?
    If you applied this force to a blade in a vice, how much would it deflect?
    To know how an outer layer would compress and expand, a sample would be required for testing.

    When the rubber, ball and blade decompress, it is, "better", faster if the rubber stays in contact with the ball as long as possible so as much energy can be returned to the ball as possible.

    Zeio, can you do something original for once, instead of copy someone else's work that you don't understand, and make an estimate of the peak force of a TT ball impact. I will let you specify the impact speed. Are you any good, or does Dunning-Kruger really apply to you? I have a life time of successful projects. What do you have?

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    #45
    A few questions and thoughts!!!!!!!

    1) Does the blade surface compress?? Surely this must be extremely small, probably zero?
    2) Does the rubber/sponge act as a ‘damper’ ? Stopping some of the force from actually reaching the blade?
    The Flex of the blade shown in BB’s video clips definitely happens.
    But -
    there is flex caused by the impact
    there is flex caused by the stroke (pre impact) which maybe, is pretty small, especially compared to a golf club or badminton racket.

    3) Do we exert enough force during a stroke to start to make the blade flex before impact? Does this type of pre impact flex (if it happens!!) make any difference?

    looking back to 1&2)
    When using a new rubber, we use terms like ‘breaking in’ a rubber, and that’s exactly what it is, we damage the rubber and sponge to a certain extent, some rubbers actually start to show impact ‘dents’ or marks after extreme use, the blade surface doesn’t.
    So, does this mean that the blade outer layer doesn’t ‘compress’? Or, is it that there is very small compression that is within the top veneers ability to consistently recover from?

    Do we have to ‘hit through’ the rubber/sponge to engage the blade? Yes, does the top veneer compress???
    in general, timber is not exactly ‘elastic’ in the way it’s used for veneers!!! If you compress a bamboo cane at the end, it bends and springs back, if you compress the cane on an edge, it is really hard to compress and would eventually crush. This is how we use the veneers, forces are imposed on the side edge of the grains, they are more likely to ‘dent’ and remain dented.

    If we played without any rubbers, would the outer veneers start to show impact damage?
    This would depend on the wood used and it’s characteristics, but now the protective layer of rubber/sponge is missing then the blade now takes the full impact force.
    As BB stated, Balsa is usually protected by another type of wood veneer that don’t damage as easily. Or don’t damaged when protected by the rubber / sponge.

    3) Is Pre impact flex important for table tennis?
    For golf and badminton the racket or club has a long shaft compared to a TT bat, the flex of a TT bat is in comparison way less during a stroke and therefore to a certain extent less important for assisting in increasing the power or speed of the bat at impact, we make up for this by learning good techniques to produce power and power transfer.
    Obviously this is the same for all of the sports mentioned.
    Interestingly, golf shaft flex used to be considered important, but I think studies have shown that the difference in flex of a shaft is less important than previously thought when looking to gain distance!! Technique once again is the most important thing!!

    Post impact flex, This is a result of the impact, if I have it right, the ball has already left the bat before the blade can ‘rebound’. So the actual post impact flex has NO relevance on the stroke performed. But it does influence how the ‘feel’ of the impact is transferred to us, touchy feely time !!!!!!!!!

    Is there any ‘flex’ at impact?, if we haven’t caused the bat to flex pre impact, then there can’t be any flex already ‘in play’ at the point of impact. The impact then causes some flex. Or in the case of the firewall - no flex

    What does have relevance, is the composition of the blade, the flex is a result of the blades composition. How much the blade will flex is dependent on the forces involved and the composition of the blade.

    We are able to buy a stiff defensive blade with carbon layers, or a stiff offensive blade with carbon layers etc one is fast the other slow!!!









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    #46
    I would love to step in, but I don't want to get dragged into a meaningless discussion. Zeio already dropped the floor hint...

    Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
    www.sdcttblades.com / Insta: @sdc_tt_blades / Face: @SDCblades

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    A few questions and thoughts!!!!!!!

    1) Does the blade surface compress?? Surely this must be extremely small, probably zero?
    Everything will compress if a force is supplied. Steel will compress. The question is how much. Probably not enough to measure easily. A word that works well in this post is infinitesimal, approaching zero.

    2) Does the rubber/sponge act as a ‘damper’ ?
    YES!!! If it didn't then the COR of rubber would be 1!
    Rubber absorbs energy. That is why I can't understand people that say that thicker rubbers are faster.
    Stopping some of the force from actually reaching the blade?
    The force is transmitted from the ball to the blade. Remember Newtons 3rd law about opposite and equal forces.
    However, this is a dynamic situation. I have no idea how fast the "shock" wave travels trough the sponge and wood.
    I know that industrial systems it takes time for the pressure waves to transfer through oil or water. This is a function of how compressible they are. Yes, water compresses, a little.
    The Flex of the blade shown in BB’s video clips definitely happens.
    But -
    there is flex caused by the impact
    there is flex caused by the stroke (pre impact) which maybe, is pretty small, especially compared to a golf club or badminton racket.
    3) Do we exert enough force during a stroke to start to make the blade flex before impact? Does this type of pre impact flex (if it happens!!) make any difference?
    In the Toxic 5 video the blade is not moving. If I moved the Toxic 5 like a fan the wind resistance could flex the blade. I doubt this is a problem for most paddles at human speeds. I am sure the blades could be snapped off if in a wind tunnel. Its a matter of degree. The term to use again is infinitesimal. ( approaching zero ).

    looking back to 1&2)
    When using a new rubber, we use terms like ‘breaking in’ a rubber,
    I think you are simply adjusting to new rubber. It better not be worn out after a couple hours of play.

    and that’s exactly what it is, we damage the rubber and sponge to a certain extent, some rubbers actually start to show impact ‘dents’ or marks after extreme use, the blade surface doesn’t.
    You should never see dents. Either the rubber is damaged or you are playing with Giant Dragon Guard.
    Dents mean the rubber doesn't spring back and return energy to the ball. Giant Dragon Guard is a slow Chinese version of anti.

    So, does this mean that the blade outer layer doesn’t ‘compress’? Or, is it that there is very small compression that is within the top veneers ability to consistently recover from?
    Again, the word is infinitesimal. Not enough to notice. I have never seen a blade with dents in it from TT balls. Only from hitting the table.

    Do we have to ‘hit through’ the rubber/sponge to engage the blade? Yes, does the top veneer compress???
    'hit through' is a bogus term. The force of impact is transmitted through the rubber to the blade. Newton's 3rd law. Again, it is a matter of how fast. If it is only a few microseconds then everything is seeing the same force.

    in general, timber is not exactly ‘elastic’ in the way it’s used for veneers!!!
    ??? Veneers are made of wood. I have been in many veneer plants. Veneer is just logs after being processed.

    If you compress a bamboo cane at the end, it bends and springs back, if you compress the cane on an edge, it is really hard to compress and would eventually crush. This is how we use the veneers, forces are imposed on the side edge of the grains, they are more likely to ‘dent’ and remain dented.
    I have never seen a dent on my paddles caused by TT balls.

    If we played without any rubbers, would the outer veneers start to show impact damage?
    Probably over time.

    This would depend on the wood used and it’s characteristics, but now the protective layer of rubber/sponge is missing then the blade now takes the full impact force.
    It always took full force. However now it takes full energy whereas before the rubber absorbed most of it.

    3) Is Pre impact flex important for table tennis?
    For golf and badminton the racket or club has a long shaft compared to a TT bat, the flex of a TT bat is in comparison way less during a stroke and therefore to a certain extent less important for assisting in increasing the power or speed of the bat at impact, we make up for this by learning good techniques to produce power and power transfer.
    Obviously this is the same for all of the sports mentioned.
    Interestingly, golf shaft flex used to be considered important, but I think studies have shown that the difference in flex of a shaft is less important than previously thought when looking to gain distance!! Technique once again is the most important thing!!

    Post impact flex, This is a result of the impact, if I have it right, the ball has already left the bat before the blade can ‘rebound’. So the actual post impact flex has NO relevance on the stroke performed. But it does influence how the ‘feel’ of the impact is transferred to us, touchy feely time !!!!!!!!!

    Is there any ‘flex’ at impact?, if we haven’t caused the bat to flex pre impact, then there can’t be any flex already ‘in play’ at the point of impact. The impact then causes some flex. Or in the case of the firewall - no flex
    You seem to be obsessed with flex. It is small in most cases. Someone needs to work out how much force a TT ball actually applied to a blade at impact. If you put a blade in a vice and applied the same force at the sweet spot, how much would the blade flex? Would you put a 10 kg weight on a TT paddle to measure how much if flexes? Is 10 Kg too much or too little? The flex should be measured with a micrometer.

    What does have relevance, is the composition of the blade, the flex is a result of the blades composition. How much the blade will flex is dependent on the forces involved and the composition of the blade.
    It has everything to do with it.

    Flex makes a difference. Again, I will use the example of the spring board diver. The spring board diver adjusts the spring in the board to match his weight. When the diver makes his jump on the board, the board flexes. The diver then starts to push off as the board rebounds. To get the must energy out of the board the board and diver need to stay in contact as long as possible. Think about it.

    Also, about Newton's 3rd law about opposite and equal forces. If one end of a spring is fixed at one end and is compressed with a force of 1 N then the spring will compress a little. If two spring are compressed when end to end and 1 N is applied then each spring will see the same 1 N force and compress the same amount so the total amount of compression is doubled. If 100 springs are placed end to and 1 N force is applied to the 100th spring, they will also EVENTUALLY see the same 1N force and all the springs will be compressed by the same amount. However, it will take time for the applied force to reach the first spring. At first the 1N force applied to the 100th spring will be divided between compressing and accelerating the springs that need to move as the other springs closer to the fixed end start to compress. Since all the springs will compress, the 100th spring where the force is being applied will need to move a bit more than the 99th spring etc. This is an extreme example of what happens during an impact. This is a key concept of what I do in real life. Going back to TT. I don't know how fast the force is transmitted from the ball to the blade if it is only microseconds or smaller than the engage the blade idea is bogus.

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    #48
    I hope that everyone is aware that all these info while interesting is useful only to blade manufacturers and rubber engineers and that such knowledge cannot make anyone a better player.
    It can make a player better at science though.

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    #49
    The OP's questions have been answered!

    We have established that the terms dwell time and throw angle are incredibly useful. Useful for arguing about on the forums. Without in the slightest way changing anyone's understanding of how to hit a ping pong ball, or even how to choose equipment. So in that sense, utterly useless.

    To be efficient, let's reserve the terms dwell time and throw angle for these argy-bargy engineering threads.

    And ban them from proper threads about equipment and technique. There we can use normal words that don't pretend to scientific precision. Like fast, slow, feeling, spinny. We can define these as follows:

    Fast = faster that whatever blade or rubber I am used to using
    Slow = the opposite of fast
    Spinny / Not spinny = see fast and slow above
    Good / Bad Feeling = I like / don't like this blade or rubber

    Suggestions of other plain language descriptors welcome.

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    #50
    Engage the blade,
    Is this a ‘feely’ thing again? whether the blade is engaged scientifically is another thing.
    I think that when the term ‘hitting through the rubber’ is used people are meaning that the rubber and sponge has been compressed to an extent that it ‘feels’ harder, almost as if the sponge and rubber were not present and the ball has contacted and ‘engaged’ the blade itself.
    ’hitting through the ball’ means a more direct stroke, less brush. ‘Hitting through the ball’ is more likely to result in the feeling of ‘hitting through the rubber’.

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    #51
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    ...

    Rubber absorbs energy. That is why I can't understand people that say that thicker rubbers are faster.
    ...

    'hit through' is a bogus term.
    ...

    I think you've got it wrong here; interested to read your reply. All else being equal, thicker rubbers are faster because they can absorb more energy, which they return to the ball with greater efficiency/less dissipation than the wooden blade. Thinner rubbers let more of the energy get dissipated in the blade. Hard bat dissipates still more energy. That's why "hit through" is not a bogus term. If the impact compresses the rubber beyond a certain point, then the rubber loses its ability to reduce excess energy loss in the wood.

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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Evil
    [p]I think you've got it wrong here; interested to read your reply. All else being equal, thicker rubbers are faster because they can absorb more energy,
    Where does this "more energy" come from if all else is equal? This is key.
    You have been listening to EmRathich

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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Where does this "more energy" come from if all else is equal? This is key.
    You have been listening to EmRathich

    Thicker rubber absorbs more (i.e., a greater percentage) of the impact energy than thinner rubber, leaving less to get absorbed by the wood. Not familiar with EnRatThich's take on the subject.


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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Evil

    Thicker rubber absorbs more (i.e., a greater percentage) of the impact energy than thinner rubber, leaving less to get absorbed by the wood. Not familiar with EnRatThich's take on the subject.

    I don’t think ‘absorbs is the right term, ‘rebounds’ or ‘deflects back maybe better?? A ‘trampoline’ situation.
    For the sponges to work, they need something hard behind them as well. Something to compress against.

    BB
    Does a harder material deflect back more energy and absorb less energy?

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    #55
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    I don’t think ‘absorbs is the right term, ‘rebounds’ or ‘deflects back maybe better?? A ‘trampoline’ situation.
    For the sponges to work, they need something hard behind them as well. Something to compress against.

    BB
    Does a harder material deflect back more energy and absorb less energy?

    I think absorb is the right term, as in shock absorber, energy absorption spectrum, etc. When the ball hits the rubber, energy is absorbed by all concerned parties (the ball, the rubber, the blade, etc.). Some of the energy is converted from kinetic energy into potential energy, mostly via deformation of the materials which temporarily increases the internal energy of their chemical bonds, and then back into kinetic energy. Some is converted from kinetic energy into heat, I think mostly via internal friction of the materials, and so doesn't turn back into kinetic energy, i.e., it's lost/dissipated. I think the wooden blade dissipates more of its absorbed energy than rubber. So the greater share of the impact energy that's absorbed by the rubber, the less gets dissipated.


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    #56
    I already explained why thicker rubber is faster somewhere else. I'll repeat it here. Of course. I'm neither a good player, nor an engineer in physics. And this is my personal understanding. In table tennis. You want the ball to be faster BUT ALSO SPINNIER AND ALSO LANDS ON THE TABLE. Any good player would tell you that a softer / thinner rubber is easier to smash and faster when smash.
    If a ball that is a little slower at the beginning, but kicks a lot faster after bounce, people will perceive it as really fast. BECAUSE IT REALLY IS. You have to react to that kick all the time. A good player doesn't measure speed as an average of length / time. He / she relies on how much time he / she has to react to a ball.

    If you hit the ball too deep, the wood kicks in a lot more than the rubber, flattening the ball (a professional would say you kill the spin). So when a good player takes a thinner / softer rubber to play, he either has to kill some of his spin (which makes the kick slower) or adjusts the swing to be thinner (which wastes more of his power input). In reality it's probably both. AGAIN HE HAS TO LAND THE BALL ON THE TABLE.

    If I'm a good player. I would want to add more speed into my shot, which has certain spin and reliability that I know. I'm not gonna just measure how fast a rubber is by tapes only. Hence I'll say this hard rubber requires a bit more effort (which I have so not much of a fuzz for me), but a lot faster (given my slightly adjusted stroke for the same purposes).

    It's amazing to understand engineering things for me. But in the end, we still need to put them into practical perspective.

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    #57
    Oh. I believe the woods compress and decompress, and then compress a little less, and then decompress a little less etc. Or its surface vibrates. That's why it makes nice sound and blade reviewers measure the sound' frequencies. I may be completely wrong though.

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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Evil

    Thicker rubber absorbs more (i.e., a greater percentage) of the impact energy than thinner rubber, leaving less to get absorbed by the wood. Not familiar with EnRatThich's take on the subject.

    You didn't answer my question. Where does this "more energy come from?
    Now you have changed the wording a little to a percentage not an absolute amount. OK.
    Does rubber return a higher percentage of the energy it has absorbed relative to a blade? Not with a normal blade.
    Bounce a ball of a bare blade then off a rubber mounted on hard wood like a cutting board. Which one returns the most energy/speed?
    How much energy is there to absorb? It can be calculated.
    How does one measure how much energy a rubber or blade absorb? I know.

    I really wish there was someone here that understood the basics. Anyone? All the young people are just repeating the same old crap.

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    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    I already explained why thicker rubber is faster somewhere else.
    You are just repeating the same old lies you have heard.

    I'll repeat it here. Of course. I'm neither a good player, nor an engineer in physics. And this is my personal understanding.
    This is a problem.

    In table tennis. You want the ball to be faster BUT ALSO SPINNIER AND ALSO LANDS ON THE TABLE. Any good player would tell you that a softer / thinner rubber is easier to smash and faster when smash.
    Really, then why was that Andro add to the right saying R53 is for me and R47 is for you. They got paid to say that. You can't trust advertisements.

    If you hit the ball too deep, the wood kicks in a lot more than the rubber, flattening the ball (a professional would say you kill the spin).
    What wood? How does a ball know it has landed deep?


    So when a good player takes a thinner / softer rubber to play, he either has to kill some of his spin (which makes the kick slower) or adjusts the swing to be thinner (which wastes more of his power input). In reality it's probably both. AGAIN HE HAS TO LAND THE BALL ON THE TABLE.
    ???? Kill spin?


    If I'm a good player. I would want to add more speed into my shot, which has certain spin and reliability that I know. I'm not gonna just measure how fast a rubber is by tapes only. Hence I'll say this hard rubber requires a bit more effort (which I have so not much of a fuzz for me), but a lot faster (given my slightly adjusted stroke for the same purposes).
    Don't you get it? Hard, soft, thick, thin. It is all about the coefficient of restitution as in the Tieffenbacher document.


    It's amazing to understand engineering things for me. But in the end, we still need to put them into practical perspective.
    I do. I know what to do. I just have trouble doing it.

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    You didn't answer my question. Where does this "more energy come from?
    Now you have changed the wording a little to a percentage not an absolute amount. OK.
    Does rubber return a higher percentage of the energy it has absorbed relative to a blade? Not with a normal blade.
    Bounce a ball of a bare blade then off a rubber mounted on hard wood like a cutting board. Which one returns the most energy/speed?
    How much energy is there to absorb? It can be calculated.
    How does one measure how much energy a rubber or blade absorb? I know.

    I really wish there was someone here that understood the basics. Anyone? All the young people are just repeating the same old crap.

    Once again, "more energy" means a greater proportion of the total impact energy. But you already knew that. Why waste time on straw man distractions when you actually do address the question, here:

    "Does rubber return a higher percentage of the energy it has absorbed relative to a blade? Not with a normal blade.
    Bounce a ball of a bare blade then off a rubber mounted on hard wood like a cutting board. Which one returns the most energy/speed?"

    Okay, I did it, sort of. Bare Viscaria vs T05H on Viscaria. Blades next to each other on a table, balls dropped from various heights. The balls bounce higher and more times off the rubber. Far from rigorous, but I'll stick with my hypothesis for now. The rubber blade returns more energy than the bare blade.


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