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  1. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #241
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Michael, before Dan's back injury in about 2009, he was top 50 in UK: back then, he was probably about 2500+.

    Someone who used to be high level, who had an injury and mainly plays for fun, in a match he could likely up his level beyond what you have seen in video footage if he really wanted to.

    Worth understanding.
    you reckon UK top 50 is 2500+ level?
    TTT

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    #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    you reckon UK top 50 is 2500+ level?

    USATT 2500, I think that would be in the right ballpark. German TTR, nope. German TTR 2500 is a much higher rating that the same number in the USATT rating system. But....we really can't tell what numbers, what rating, someone would earn unless they actually play the matches and earn the rating. I was just giving a ballpark estimate. And of course that could mean 2450 to 2550 or maybe 2400-2500....So I am not saying it is fully accurate. Just that, when Dan was really playing competitively, he was pretty darn good.....and that there was a reason he stopped playing competitively: back injury.....which may be why he never is playing all out.

    It is also worth considering, what the UK top 50 was in 2008--09 and what it is today may not be the same. I am not sure about now. But back when Dan was at #50, I think that was about right.

    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-20-2022 at 08:50 AM.
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  3. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #243

    Also, something else that may also help illuminate part of what my comment to Michael about Dan's "Level" was about.

    I know these two guys. Lets say their names are Matt and Dave. Both are at about the same USATT rating level (2200-2300). Matt is someone who is coming up to that level and has been plateauing at that level. Dave is someone who used to play all the time as a kid, as a teen and as a young adult, in the mid 1990s, he was paid to go to Sweden for 6 months or more to train and improve his skills, at some point, he was internationally ranked and played matches against the likes of Werner Schlager. At his best, he was 2700+ USATT rated. Why did his level drop so much? He stopped playing. He has not really played at this point for almost 2 decades. He got a regular job. And just plays tournaments once in a while for fun.

    So, one time, Matt was wondering why, if he and Dave are the same level, why he can never seem to take a match from Dave even though, many times he has come close and thought he would take a match only to fall short. So, it is worth understanding that even if they technically at about the same level and have about the same rating, that Dave might have some prior experiences to draw on that are different than those that Matt has.

    So, perhaps, sometimes Michael is comparing Apples to Asteroids when he thinks he is comparing Apples to Apples.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-20-2022 at 09:14 AM.
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  4. NDH is offline
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    #244
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    USATT 2500, I think that would be in the right ballpark. German TTR, nope. German TTR 2500 is a much higher rating that the same number in the USATT rating system. But....we really can't tell what numbers, what rating, someone would earn unless they actually play the matches and earn the rating. I was just giving a ballpark estimate. And of course that could mean 2450 to 2550 or maybe 2400-2500....So I am not saying it is fully accurate. Just that, when Dan was really playing competitively, he was pretty darn good.....and that there was a reason he stopped playing competitively: back injury.....which may be why he never is playing all out.

    It is also worth considering, what the UK top 50 was in 2008--09 and what it is today may not be the same. I am not sure about now. But back when Dan was at #50, I think that was about right.

    To add some further context to this discussion, the UK rankings are terrible (due to the sport being run by a bunch of incompetent fools in the UK).

    Due to the smaller number of people playing, the differences can be huge.

    For example..... Local League is the most popular competition throughout the year, and most Towns/Cities have their own league, with it's own ranking system (the systems don't talk to each other).

    The "main" UK wide ranking system requires you to play the qualifying events (like Senior British League, or sanctioned tournaments) - So not everyone who plays local league, is even on the UK rankings.

    Take me for example - I won the Premier "Top 8" of one of my local leagues this year beating someone who is in the top 170 of the UK in the final (according to the official rankings).

    But as I don't play the weekend events, I'm not on the UK ranking list at all.

    I think there is also a HUGE jump in quality once you get inside the UK Top 50.

    As Carl pointed out, it's very (very) hard to tell from video (especially when it's just the highlights), but I'd put Victor between 100 and 250 of the UK.

    It might seem like a big gap, but aside from consistency, there isn't *much* difference in quality between those 2 numbers.

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  5. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #245
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    USATT 2500, I think that would be in the right ballpark. German TTR, nope. German TTR 2500 is a much higher rating that the same number in the USATT rating system. But....we really can't tell what numbers, what rating, someone would earn unless they actually play the matches and earn the rating. I was just giving a ballpark estimate. And of course that could mean 2450 to 2550 or maybe 2400-2500....So I am not saying it is fully accurate. Just that, when Dan was really playing competitively, he was pretty darn good.....and that there was a reason he stopped playing competitively: back injury.....which may be why he never is playing all out.

    It is also worth considering, what the UK top 50 was in 2008--09 and what it is today may not be the same. I am not sure about now. But back when Dan was at #50, I think that was about right.

    No disrespect to Dan, but i think UK50 is quite a long range from say top 30 and top10.
    Adam Hugh around that time was hovering around 2500
    and USA level was was lower then than today (2500 won't even get you into the junior team today).
    I would say Dan won't be more than 2400, maybe more around 2400 to 2350

    If UK 50 is 2500, that would make 30 at 2650 ~ 2700 and UK 10 at 2850 and UK 1 at 3000?

    TTT

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    #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    No disrespect to Dan, but i think UK50 is quite a long range from say top 30 and top10.
    Adam Hugh around that time was hovering around 2500
    and USA level was was lower then than today (2500 won't even get you into the junior team today).
    I would say Dan won't be more than 2400, maybe more around 2400 to 2350

    If UK 50 is 2500, that would make 30 at 2650 ~ 2700 and UK 10 at 2850 and UK 1 at 3000?

    It's honestly impossible to tell - The UK rankings are so far away from being credible, it's hard to explain just how bad it is.

    If you've watched any of the TTD videos, here are some of the current rankings.

    TTD Team


    1. Tom Maynard - NO RANKING
    2. Louis Price - 17
    3. Daniel Simonsen - NO RANKING
    4. Garth Kinlocke - 66
    5. Umair Mauthoor - 55
    6. Will Bayley MBE - 97
    7. Jan Surwilo - NO RANKING
    8. Dan Ives - NO RANKING

  7. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #247
    Just went to see ITTF world ranking off 2009 july.

    ENG highest was Drinkhall @ 118
    Baggaley @ 207
    Rushton @ 264
    Darius Knight @ 301
    Reed @ 390
    Evans @ 460

    USA 1 Cheng Yinghua @ 224
    2 David Zhang at @ 240
    3 Mark Hazinski @ 359 (USATT2600)
    6 Adam Hugh @ 471 (USATT2500)

    I think USA had way less world tours than England at that time.

    I think if Dan was USATT 2500, he would of been in the national team, or top 10
    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 05-20-2022 at 12:48 PM.
    TTT

  8. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #248
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    It's honestly impossible to tell - The UK rankings are so far away from being credible, it's hard to explain just how bad it is.

    If you've watched any of the TTD videos, here are some of the current rankings.

    TTD Team


    1. Tom Maynard - NO RANKING
    2. Louis Price - 17
    3. Daniel Simonsen - NO RANKING
    4. Garth Kinlocke - 66
    5. Umair Mauthoor - 55
    6. Will Bayley MBE - 97
    7. Jan Surwilo - NO RANKING
    8. Dan Ives - NO RANKING
    Yeah
    I know exactly what you mean.
    Its "participation in tournament" ranking points. not actual level.
    meanwhile, USATT is based on level.

    When Carl first mentioned 2500, i thought in 2009, 2500 is pretty high, and then we have it, Mark at 2600 was in the USA team.
    So i would put Dan based on where the USA and ENG national team weigh in on the WR, to put Dan in the 2300-2400 max.
    Obviously, only the locals in UK would know, how Dan weighs against the national team member back then, to give a more accurate placement.
    TTT

  9. vvk1 is online now
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    #249
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    It's honestly impossible to tell - The UK rankings are so far away from being credible, it's hard to explain just how bad it is.

    If you've watched any of the TTD videos, here are some of the current rankings.

    TTD Team


    1. Tom Maynard - NO RANKING
    2. Louis Price - 17
    3. Daniel Simonsen - NO RANKING
    4. Garth Kinlocke - 66
    5. Umair Mauthoor - 55
    6. Will Bayley MBE - 97
    7. Jan Surwilo - NO RANKING
    8. Dan Ives - NO RANKING

    Well, strictly speaking, they have a ranking - they are just not on the latest published list due to lack of participation in TTE tournaments. Just go to https://www.tabletennisengland.co.uk...s-and-ratings/ and download the starter rankings (or ratings if you want to include players who are no eligible to play for England). So

    Tom Maynard was #22 and Dan Ives was #237 in December
    Jan Surwilo was #230

    The rankings are a bit of a joke, I agree with that. For example TTDSL match results do not contribute to any rating points as they are not "included in the Computer Ranking Scheme and are not approved by Table Tennis England".

    The last useful set of rankings was published some years ago by tt365 when they were in charge of rankings. These included both official TTE tournaments and local league results (with the notable exception of one of leagues that NDH plays in :-) as they were at the time and still seem to be wedded to a home-grown system) and used to be a far better predictor of a match result than anything else. Good times.


    Last edited by vvk1; 05-21-2022 at 01:46 PM.

  10. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #250
    Well Victor being in top 100-250 in UK is pretty cool.

    So is Tom considered the best player on the TTD team? Why doesn't he have a ranking?

    Also, what is the TTD team? Is that just a little private league that they organized? or is it a nation-wide league? Why does TTD have it's own team?

  11. NDH is offline
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    #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Well Victor being in top 100-250 in UK is pretty cool.

    So is Tom considered the best player on the TTD team? Why doesn't he have a ranking?

    Also, what is the TTD team? Is that just a little private league that they organized? or is it a nation-wide league? Why does TTD have it's own team?

    The TTD league, team and videos you see are a private league set up by Dan and the TTD team.

    It’s not associated with Table Tennis England, and there are no ranking points available.

    I think Tom and Louis would be considered the best.

    Tom edged their match recently, but it’s pretty close.


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    #252
    Do the TTD league players have normal day jobs? or do they play TT full time? Does each of the team represent a specific group?

    Can anybody join the league? Where does Tom rank in England?

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    #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Do the TTD league players have normal day jobs? or do they play TT full time? Does each of the team represent a specific group?

    Can anybody join the league? Where does Tom rank in England?

    I don’t know them individually, but I don’t think any of them are full time players.

    At most, some might be coaches, but I imagine they all have full time day jobs.

    The harsh reality is, the money just isn’t good enough unless you are world class. Drinkhall and Pitchford get by, but I don’t think anyone else does.

    Tom would rank in the top 30 I expect.

    @VVK1 said he was ranked 22 the last time he appeared.

    It’s probably worth pointing out that the difference in class between the TTD team, and full professionals will be huge.

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    #254
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I don’t know them individually, but I don’t think any of them are full time players.

    At most, some might be coaches, but I imagine they all have full time day jobs.

    The harsh reality is, the money just isn’t good enough unless you are world class. Drinkhall and Pitchford get by, but I don’t think anyone else does.

    Tom would rank in the top 30 I expect.

    @VVK1 said he was ranked 22 the last time he appeared.

    It’s probably worth pointing out that the difference in class between the TTD team, and full professionals will be huge.

    Yeah the difference between the top amateur players and actual pros is absolutely massive. I played against Xu Hui a few years ago (he used to play on the chinese national B team and has beaten Ovtcharov and other top players). I lost 7, 4, 4. But the score makes almost no difference against these players when the level gap is so huge. They're playing at like 5% of their ability. When you play someone much better, they aren't playing the same as they would someone their own level. So the takeaway of what you did well against them etc won't be realistic.

    There can be like a universe of difference between some levels. The pros are very strong and fast, they read the ball very well and have been exposed to all kinds of spin since they were kids. Most of them have optimal or near optimal technique + good feeling for the ball. A good amateur has some of those things but is still far from the skills the pros have. If they did have them.. they'd be pro.


  15. Tinykin is offline
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    #255
    Agree about the pro standard vs TTD
    However, others can expand or correct me, but the TTD players do have decent pedigree as strong amateurs
    Full-timers:
    Dan (the founder) - full-time running TTD
    Tom (full-time) - TT coach, highest rank about no.10-12, plays in Swedish top tier
    Louis (the beast) full time - Aspiring pro, English senior no.13, plays in Germany
    The Amateurs:
    Jan (Ringer) - Trucker, plays minimal TT - easy top 30 if he did train/compete hence the nickname
    Umair (Pocket rocket) - Runs his own business in London - Rank no 39, talented all-round sportsman, top TT junior in his day, but was more a footballer who played some TT.
    Garth (Captain) - Rank no.48, Financial advisor - spent a long time in top20 senior men when still a junior

    Peter (Dan's Dad) - Fittest 55yo in England


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    #256
    Has anyone tried this with pips yet? There's a video of a HK coach using long pip, I wonder if short pip would be nice on it.

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    #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    Agree about the pro standard vs TTD
    However, others can expand or correct me, but the TTD players do have decent pedigree as strong amateurs
    Full-timers:
    Dan (the founder) - full-time running TTD
    Tom (full-time) - TT coach, highest rank about no.10-12, plays in Swedish top tier
    Louis (the beast) full time - Aspiring pro, English senior no.13, plays in Germany
    The Amateurs:
    Jan (Ringer) - Trucker, plays minimal TT - easy top 30 if he did train/compete hence the nickname
    Umair (Pocket rocket) - Runs his own business in London - Rank no 39, talented all-round sportsman, top TT junior in his day, but was more a footballer who played some TT.
    Garth (Captain) - Rank no.48, Financial advisor - spent a long time in top20 senior men when still a junior

    Peter (Dan's Dad) - Fittest 55yo in England
    Oh no! Am I actually older than Dan's dad!....hahahahaha.

    Thanks for this.

    My point was, you can't compare people by video. And someone who, at one point trained and competed at a pretty high level and NO LONGER is able to train, for various reasons.....you can't compare how you think they play based on video footage to someone who you are also only seeing on video footage.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-21-2022 at 02:38 AM.
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  18. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #258
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Oh no! Am I actually older than Dan's dad!....hahahahaha.

    Thanks for this.

    My point was, you can't compare people by video. And someone who, at one point trained and competed at a pretty high level and NO LONGER is able to train, for various reasons.....you can't compare how you think they play based on video footage to someone who you are also only seeing on video footage.

    That is correct
    for both points

    TTT

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    #259
    I thought this would be a thread where forum-members discuss about the Stiga Cybershape Carbon, but the last 28 posts have simply nothing to do with this blade.

    Maybe a mod can change the title of this thread, if the playing skills of different players and the rating-system of different countries are more interesting than the Cybershape. Otherwise you could also discuss this in a new thread and continue to write your Cybershape-impressions here.

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    #260
    At this point, I may get a better answer buying the bloody thing and trying SP on it than wait haha

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